Ed--

Excellent information. In the abscence of such info from other
builders, I have to wonder if the standards cited in this bill of
material might have been those used by most car builders. But the
citing of a Southern Pacific order also makes me wonder also if the
paintwork was done by P-S in accordance with SP's "Common Standard"
used by that road. As for the car lumber itself, was this not an AAR
standard?

Painting running boards once with thinned paint may have had a
purpose. Running boards painted with multiple coats of paint would
be slippery during wet weather. A trainman slipping on a such a
surface and consequently being seriously injured might justifiably be
inclined to sue the railroad under the US Federal Employers Liability
Act (FELA) of 1908. It would be argued in court (and probably
successfully) that the railroad CREATED the hazard that caused the
employee's injury.

So the use of one thinned coat of paint on running boards would be a
compromise that would impart some weather protection to the wood
running boards on account of the thinned paint penetrating through
the wood surface, yet not make the boards slippery when wet?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

Tim,
Out of curiosity I pulled out a random Pullman-Standard bill of
material for a series of box cars to see what it specified for

interior

decking and running boards. This happens to apply to two P-S lot
numbers 5537 and 5549, 1937 AAR box cars built in 1936 for Southern
Pacific, series 32770-33269 and 37840-38089, respectively.

On a per car basis, decking was comprised of 96 boards made of

Douglas

Fir, Vertical Grain, Close Grain, Free from Heart, and Edges Clear

of

Knots. Of the total, 94 were Tongue & Groove 1-3/4" x 5-1/16" x 9'-

8

1/4". The other two were 2-1/16" x 5-1/2" x 9'-8 1/4" with one

board

being tongue only and the other being groove only. Layout to

conform to

P-S drawing 512-C-51.

Running boards were also Vertical Grain Douglas Fir (9 boards for

the

longitudinals and 14 for the latitudinals. All boards were 1-1/8" x
5-3/4". The lengths of the longitudinals varied with 3 being 17'-

1", 3

being 14'-3 1/2", and 3 being 10'-10 1/2". The latitudinals were

all

2'-1" long.

There is nothing in the lumber section that says anything about any
type of wood coatings or preservatives.

Quoting from the section entitled Painting.

Application: All paint colors must be furnished by the car builder

and

must conform to the shade with sample colors shown in specification
CS-22. All paints must conform with specification CS-22. All paints
must be applied in perfectly even coats to both wood and metal
surfaces. Paint must not be applied in temperature below 40 degrees
Fahrenheit. Paint may be applied either by brushed or by spraying,

if

done in a workmanlike manner. Inspectors must see that paints are

not

thinned down beyond their specified consistencies to permit of more
rapid application. The use of benzine or other inferior cutting
agencies will not be permitted.

Trucks: All parts of trucks, except wheels and axles must receive

two

coats of metallic paint No. 11 to be of the same consistency as the

two

coats of metallic paint for car body and be stenciled in white lead

in

accordance with drawings showing "Lettering" with initials of road

and

number on side of each truck which faces toward the end of car.

Underframe and Body: Underframe and body must be thoroughly cleaned

and

free from rust and grease before painting is begun. All joints

where

metal laps on metal must be given a thick coating of No. 1

Continental

Car Cement or approved equivalent before being riveted up. This

also

applies to wood parts which come in contact with metal. Body of car
(outside and inside metal surfaces including inside of roof) and
underframe must receive a priming coat of read lead in oil No. 19-A
with two coats of metallic paint No. 11 on outside of body and
underframe, and one coat of metallic paint No. 11 on inside of

metal

surfaces (including inside of roof) reduced as shown below. Apply a
good priming coat of red lead in oil No. 19-A to both inside and
outside of metal surfaces of body including inside of roof and to
underframe. This coat must be thoroughly well brushed in or sprayed

on

and then thoroughly well brushed in after spraying. Allow twelve

hours

for drying. Paint for the second outside coat shall be reduced with

1/2

gallon of boiled linseed oil, 1/8 gallon of turpentine substitute,

and

1/8 gallon Japan dryer to one gallon of No. 11. Allow twelve hours

for

drying. Paint for the third outside coat shall be reduced with one
gallon of boiled linseed oil, 1/8 gallon of turpentine substitute

and

1/8 gallon of Japan dryer to one gallon of No. 11. Allow twelve

hours

for drying. Paint for the second inside coat, which is applied to

all

inside metal surfaces including inside of roof, should be metallic
paint No. 11 and of the same consistency as the first outside body
coat. This coat should be applied before the lining and nailing

strips

are installed in the car. Allow twelve hours for drying.

Stenciling, Lettering and Numbering: All stenciling on outside of

car

must be done with white lead in oil, No. 12, in such a manner that

all

letters and figures are perfectly white. Location of all stenciling
must be in accordance with drawing showing "Lettering" and letters

and

figures must be in strict accordance with those shown on the

drawing.

Roof: Outside of roof must receive one coat of No. 1 Continental

Car

Cement or approved equivalent, sprayed on evenly to at least 1/32"

in

thickness, and as prescribed by the cement manufacturer. This coat
should be applied before outside body receives the two coats of
metallic paint No. 11 and before the running boards are applied.

The

outside surface of roof must be washed with clear water to remove
grease and dirt. If galvanized steel roof is applied, the

galvanized

surfaces after being washed must be coated with a solution of

Oxalic

Acid in proportion of 1/2 pint acid to one gallon of water: allow

to

dry and dust off.

Running Boards: Running boards must be given one coat of metallic

paint

No. 11 when third body coat is applied and of same consistency.

While this is just one example, I hope it helps shed some light on

box

car painting practices. Note that while the running boards received

a

single coat of metallic No. 11 paint, it was a coat that had been
substantially thinned. Regarding the bottom of the floor boards, my
interpretation is that they weren't specified to be painted, but

they

may well have received some overspray of red lead primer and

metallic

No. 11 paint.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Unpainted wood makes sense on the inside of a stock car, when you
consider that the animals in the car might gnaw at the paint. Lead
paint residue is not the kind of thing that one wants in meat.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...> wrote:

Hello Rob,

Frank Ellington's "Stock Cars of the Santa Fe Railway" has interior

photos of a few Santa Fe stock cars, although none of the Sk-L
represented by the Westerfield model. All the interiors appear to me
to show unpainted wood, as there is plenty of visible wood grain and
many knots. Richard Hendrickson's "Santa Fe Ry. Painting & Lettering
Guide" specifies unpainted wood for stock car floors, but doesn't say
anything about insides of the side slats or wooden ends. On later
stock cars with steel ends (i.e., cars converted from boxcars),
photos in Frank's book show the ends lined with unpainted wood, as
Richard's book specifies for the lining of box and auto cars.

Merry Christmas,

Andy


Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Rob,

Frank Ellington's "Stock Cars of the Santa Fe Railway" has interior photos of a few Santa Fe stock cars, although none of the Sk-L represented by the Westerfield model. All the interiors appear to me to show unpainted wood, as there is plenty of visible wood grain and many knots. Richard Hendrickson's "Santa Fe Ry. Painting & Lettering Guide" specifies unpainted wood for stock car floors, but doesn't say anything about insides of the side slats or wooden ends. On later stock cars with steel ends (i.e., cars converted from boxcars), photos in Frank's book show the ends lined with unpainted wood, as Richard's book specifies for the lining of box and auto cars.

Merry Christmas,

Andy


Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142

After seeing Jerry's nice MP compact-body caboose, I posted a photo of one of my Santa Fe way cars with the Laserkit screens. It's in the Files section of the STMFC site on Yahoo, in a folder called "Andy S freight cars." In this case I colored the mesh with a black marking pen, but I've also used a brown marker for more of a copper color. For another approach to window screens, see my article on detailing ATSF way cars in the September '91 MR. I now prefer the Laserkit screens, but I haven't replaced those old ones.

Merry Christmas,

Andy


Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142

A friend is finishing his Westerfield 11500-series HO scale model of a Santa
Fe Sk.L stock car and isn't certain about the car's interior color. Were
these perhaps whitewashed, or were they simply painted the same as the car's
exterior? Here's the stock car in question

http://westerfield.biz/11501_87051.htm

Thanks for any help!


Rob Sarberenyi

Al, any info on Southern 292000-292549 ?

Tim O'Connor

The Southern's cars, series 286000-286999 (per ORER), differed from
other 41ft War Emergency gons in having six drop doors (class GA).
Other owners were Texas & New Orleans, ACL, Midland Valley, Wabash;
Alton got all-steel versions, which went to GM&O. Info from Lofton,
MM 1/92, pp 20-24.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., Mike Aufderheide <mononinmonon@...>
wrote:

All,
 
See:
 

http://steamfreightcars.com/prototype/catalog/mvcmc/mvcmcp21main.html

 
This interesting photo of a Southern gon in Jeff Koeller's Mt.

Vernon catalog led me to wonder if these cars are the same as those
offered by Funaro:

 
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/279-6260
 
It would be an interesting variation on the steel gons I have from

Sunshine & Speedwitch.  Does anyone have a roster of the 41ft war
emergency gons?

 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Any pics of it from the event or otherwise? I did not see it on
<http://www.pbase.com/superfleet93/oklahoma_city_train_show_2008>
which covered a lot that was there.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Eric Mumper" <ericmumper@...> wrote:

Group,

The Oklahoma City Train show proved to be a great trip since so many
manufacturers were there including Intermountain. They were publicly
showing something that should be of great interest to all of us: 40'
War Emergency single sheathed boxcar test shots. There were 3 of

them

labeled underneath for NKP/Wabash, ATSF/GM&O/Alton, and CNW. They

were

sitting on top of a photocopied article by Richard Hendrickson about
the ATSF cars. Since I had not gotten my eyeballs calibrated before
going, I cannot really comment on accuracy although the tooling for

the

sides looked great.

Eric Mumper

Schuyler,

The quote is exactly as it is on the page. I assumed "No." meant "north". It seem obvious to me, so I didn't comment.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

The Sunshine Region Western Division recently had a hands on clinic
building a Bar Mills (entry level) laser cut kit that was a success.
Not necessarily a STMFC topic but just to show it can be done.
Although the original plans were to get them at a discounted package
price, Bar Mills wound up comping the kits

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn <tgregmrtn@...> wrote:

Group,

Shake N Take has been a success in Cocoa Beach and now kind of a

focus for the event. So to try to duplicate it at another events would
require me retiring and lots of travel. Neither of which is going to
happen anytime soon.

Greg Martin

On Dec 8, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Denny

I hesitate to make any generalizations or assumptions about
paint anymore. Without a complete specification from a builder
or owner, I think it's all guess work. Looking at some photos
of overturned cars, I've seen a few painted underbodies, but
most are so dirty you can't tell. Of course, I have seen one
or two photos showing completely unpainted floor boards too.

The neatest photo is an overturned Santa Fe box car -- most
of the floor boards are black with filth, but some are clean.
Obviously a floor repair! This would be a challenge to model
well, and then you have the problem that no one would ever
know...
Tim O'Connor

Tim,
Out of curiosity I pulled out a random Pullman-Standard bill of
material for a series of box cars to see what it specified for interior
decking and running boards. This happens to apply to two P-S lot
numbers 5537 and 5549, 1937 AAR box cars built in 1936 for Southern
Pacific, series 32770-33269 and 37840-38089, respectively.

On a per car basis, decking was comprised of 96 boards made of Douglas
Fir, Vertical Grain, Close Grain, Free from Heart, and Edges Clear of
Knots. Of the total, 94 were Tongue & Groove 1-3/4" x 5-1/16" x 9'-8
1/4". The other two were 2-1/16" x 5-1/2" x 9'-8 1/4" with one board
being tongue only and the other being groove only. Layout to conform to
P-S drawing 512-C-51.

Running boards were also Vertical Grain Douglas Fir (9 boards for the
longitudinals and 14 for the latitudinals. All boards were 1-1/8" x
5-3/4". The lengths of the longitudinals varied with 3 being 17'-1", 3
being 14'-3 1/2", and 3 being 10'-10 1/2". The latitudinals were all
2'-1" long.

There is nothing in the lumber section that says anything about any
type of wood coatings or preservatives.

Quoting from the section entitled Painting.

Application: All paint colors must be furnished by the car builder and
must conform to the shade with sample colors shown in specification
CS-22. All paints must conform with specification CS-22. All paints
must be applied in perfectly even coats to both wood and metal
surfaces. Paint must not be applied in temperature below 40 degrees
Fahrenheit. Paint may be applied either by brushed or by spraying, if
done in a workmanlike manner. Inspectors must see that paints are not
thinned down beyond their specified consistencies to permit of more
rapid application. The use of benzine or other inferior cutting
agencies will not be permitted.

Trucks: All parts of trucks, except wheels and axles must receive two
coats of metallic paint No. 11 to be of the same consistency as the two
coats of metallic paint for car body and be stenciled in white lead in
accordance with drawings showing "Lettering" with initials of road and
number on side of each truck which faces toward the end of car.

Underframe and Body: Underframe and body must be thoroughly cleaned and
free from rust and grease before painting is begun. All joints where
metal laps on metal must be given a thick coating of No. 1 Continental
Car Cement or approved equivalent before being riveted up. This also
applies to wood parts which come in contact with metal. Body of car
(outside and inside metal surfaces including inside of roof) and
underframe must receive a priming coat of read lead in oil No. 19-A
with two coats of metallic paint No. 11 on outside of body and
underframe, and one coat of metallic paint No. 11 on inside of metal
surfaces (including inside of roof) reduced as shown below. Apply a
good priming coat of red lead in oil No. 19-A to both inside and
outside of metal surfaces of body including inside of roof and to
underframe. This coat must be thoroughly well brushed in or sprayed on
and then thoroughly well brushed in after spraying. Allow twelve hours
for drying. Paint for the second outside coat shall be reduced with 1/2
gallon of boiled linseed oil, 1/8 gallon of turpentine substitute, and
1/8 gallon Japan dryer to one gallon of No. 11. Allow twelve hours for
drying. Paint for the third outside coat shall be reduced with one
gallon of boiled linseed oil, 1/8 gallon of turpentine substitute and
1/8 gallon of Japan dryer to one gallon of No. 11. Allow twelve hours
for drying. Paint for the second inside coat, which is applied to all
inside metal surfaces including inside of roof, should be metallic
paint No. 11 and of the same consistency as the first outside body
coat. This coat should be applied before the lining and nailing strips
are installed in the car. Allow twelve hours for drying.

Stenciling, Lettering and Numbering: All stenciling on outside of car
must be done with white lead in oil, No. 12, in such a manner that all
letters and figures are perfectly white. Location of all stenciling
must be in accordance with drawing showing "Lettering" and letters and
figures must be in strict accordance with those shown on the drawing.

Roof: Outside of roof must receive one coat of No. 1 Continental Car
Cement or approved equivalent, sprayed on evenly to at least 1/32" in
thickness, and as prescribed by the cement manufacturer. This coat
should be applied before outside body receives the two coats of
metallic paint No. 11 and before the running boards are applied. The
outside surface of roof must be washed with clear water to remove
grease and dirt. If galvanized steel roof is applied, the galvanized
surfaces after being washed must be coated with a solution of Oxalic
Acid in proportion of 1/2 pint acid to one gallon of water: allow to
dry and dust off.

Running Boards: Running boards must be given one coat of metallic paint
No. 11 when third body coat is applied and of same consistency.

While this is just one example, I hope it helps shed some light on box
car painting practices. Note that while the running boards received a
single coat of metallic No. 11 paint, it was a coat that had been
substantially thinned. Regarding the bottom of the floor boards, my
interpretation is that they weren't specified to be painted, but they
may well have received some overspray of red lead primer and metallic
No. 11 paint.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

--- In STMFC@..., "Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:

A little off topic, but the "True Inspirationalists" of Amana Colony

fame in Iowa (and no they are not Amish) left their barns and

other out buildings unpainted. They found the wood lasted just as

long whether it was painted or not. Painting buildings was

determined to be a waste of time and money, so it was not done by

the colony.

Could it be railroads determined the same with freight car floors?

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

Someplace I was reading (and no, I'm not searching for the citation,
you'll have to trust me on this) That the barracks the Army
constructed during WWI were not intended to be painted, but a paint
manufacturer's association petitioned the Sec't of the Army, or
Congress, or somebody, claiming that the drab weather-beaten buildings
would be bad for morale (and no doubt paint sales, also.)

You have to remember that the inferior lumber we are seeing today
would never have been cut fifty years ago, and conversely the quality
weather resistant species are now all but unavailable, and what is
tends to be soft fast growth. Northern White Pine is extinct as a
commercial species, as is old growth Douglas Fir, and someone just
told us that the Army found imported Mahogany to be cheaper than
domestic White Oak.

I replaced an exterior door sill with a piece of dense White Oak
heartwood about fifteen years ago, and never bothered to paint, stain,
or varnish it, instead relying on that species natural rot resistance
to do the job. It's now weathered to a nice silver gray, but is still
perfectly sound; it may well outlast me. This in contrast to the
Ponderosa Pine scraps I cut into tomato stakes, which rotted away in a
year.

Truck trailers were traditionally decked with White Oak, and I don't
ever recall seeing an enclosed van trailer with the deck painted,
either inside or underneath. I would suspect that some railroads
specified that car flooring be painted, while others didn't. When
replacement time came, those cars done at outdoor RIP tracks were
unpainted, especially if the work was done during the winter, while
conversely cars repainted at shops using spray equipment had the
underside of the floor painted whether intended or not. However, any
car I've seen in service (as opposed to MoW) has had such a complete
coating of crud that one couldn't tell anyway.

If running boards were painted, they likely lost the paint on their
upper surfaces from the paint failing and weathering away long before
the wood itself deteriorated to the point that replacement was necessary.

Dennis

Mike,

Sorry, I don't have roster information on these cars, but there was
an article in January 92 of Mainline Modeler about these cars. I think
there may have been some roster info in the article. I have no idea
where my copy is or I could give you a better description.

Just a place to start...
Gary Herron - Omaha, NE

Garth, PHP is railroad talk for "Packing House Products" and could mean anything coming out of a packing house, which we more
commonly think of as a slaughter house. The "packing" term comes from early meat processors packing their products in barrels for
shipment. And the "Uncle Sam" moniker came from an early meat packer (1818 I think) who stamped barrels of meat destined for the
army "US".

PHP could be hanging meat carcasses, cans of lard or hams. It could be bacon or boxed meat. It possibly even refers to the various
by-products as well.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

A little off topic, but the "True Inspirationalists" of Amana Colony fame in Iowa (and no they are not Amish) left their barns and
other out buildings unpainted. They found the wood lasted just as long whether it was painted or not. Painting buildings was
determined to be a waste of time and money, so it was not done by the colony.

Could it be railroads determined the same with freight car floors?

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

Sorry, forgot to mention I also have available a nice scratchbuilt C&O
Thurmond, WV depot based on plans that appeared in the April 1987 issue of
Mainline Modeler

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260328954523


Rob Sarberenyi
espeef5@...

I have a variety of items currently listed on eBay that may be of interest
(note: you can easily navigate items listed from the store category menu on
the left-hand side)

http://stores.ebay.com/Espee-F-5

Among the listings are:

- Kadee PS-1 box cars
- Middle Division, Microscale, and Thinfilm decal sets
- Westside and Precision Scale brass HO scale wood sheathed cabooses
- An out-of-print PRR Passenger Painting and Lettering book, very nice!
- MDC, P2k, IMRC and other steam era freight cars
- Various books covering steam era railroads

I'll post plenty more goodies over the next several days and weeks.

Thanks for looking!


Rob Sarberenyi
espeef5@...

Tim,

It depends on the switching district agreements. It is very possible that this was the case.

Greg Martin

Group,

Shake N Take has been a success in Cocoa Beach and now kind of a focus for the event. So to try to duplicate it at another events would require me retiring and lots of travel. Neither of which is going to happen anytime soon.

Greg Martin