Here's my dilemma with flat cars.

I'm with Gene Green. We model the M&StL. Gene has shared
the "Landermesser Lists" with me/others. Although it can be argued
the lists aren't an accurate cross section of traffic on the
railroad, I think they're pretty close and beside they're about all
we have. Out of almost 1400 entries only about 150 are FM type flat
cars. About a third of those were home road cars.
As a disciplined prototype modeler I try to buy cars off `the list'
that carried lading pertinent to the industries I model. And keeping
in mind that one in three needs to be home road.

Life-Like makes a nice model lettered for the home road and Sunshine
will eventually have the other style 50' home road flat. I have a
Pennsy Bowser F something or other model (with pipe load) lettered
for the same series that is on `the list' and a Sunshine CNW car
(tractors) numbered from `the list'. But, that's where I end with
the discipline thing. I have a CB&Q car (Bulldozer in gates) that
Martin gave away at his Tupperware party. I have the Red Caboose SP
fter (plows and seeders), just for variety. I will buy the IM car,
again for variety. So, I can add another home road car. That will be
about all the flats I can afford to put loads on.

Like I said, a bigger concern than the price of the flat car model
is the price of what to put on them as a load. Priced any period
model farm machinery lately? It is conceivable to wrap nearly $100
in the load. That's beyond practical!

Clark Propst

There was a large aluminum refining plant located in Montana on
the GN -- featured in a 1950's GN annual report. The alumina that
was processed in Vancouver WA didn't need to travel by rail -- it
came in directly off ocean vessels. You're right that cheap hydro
power is the key factor.

Tim O'

Cyril Durrenberger wrote:

I think Alcoa at one time mined bauxite near Bauzite, Arkansas and I
think they had a smelter there too. 

There was never a smelter at Bauxite, only an ore beneficiation
plant to prepare ore for shipment to alumina plants.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...

Cyril Durrenberger wrote:

Buaxite is imported to Point Comfort, Texas where it is "refined" to
alumina and then shipped in covered hoppers to the Alcoa smelter in
Rockdale, Texas.  At Rockdale they get their power from locally mined
lignite.  Alcoa has announced that they will close the smelter soon.

Originally aluminum metal was produced at Point Comfort with
cheap natural gas providing the power. As the price of gas increased,
the change to Rockdale was made.

 I think Alcoa at one time mined bauxite near Bauzite, Arkansas and I
think they had a smelter there too.  As I recall the ore was poor
grade and they closed the plant long ago.

The ore at Bauxite, Arkansas was indeed not of high grade, but
the deposit was exhausted before closure.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

"What was imported was bauxite, the mineral from which aluminum
is refined, and to a lesser extent, alumina, which is aluminum oxide
refined from bauxite and the next step to aluminum metal. All you need
to do to answer the "where" question is look at a list of aluminum
refining plants, such as Alcoa's plants at Alcoa, Tennessee, Point
Comfort, Texas, Massena, New York, or Vancouver, Washington (note
access to hydroelectric power at most of these)."
 
Buaxite is imported to Point Comfort, Texas where it is "refined" to alumina and then shipped in covered hoppers to the Alcoa smelter in Rockdale, Texas.  At Rockdale they get their power from locally mined lignite.  Alcoa has announced that they will close the smelter soon.
 
I think Alcoa at one time mined bauxite near Bauzite, Arkansas and I think they had a smelter there too.  As I recall the ore was poor grade and they closed the plant long ago.

Cyril Durrenberger


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Tony, aside from uses of processed aluminum, did anyone use raw bauxite ore in any applications?

I'm not aware of any.

It is interesting that these special converted flat cars, and their even more unusual containers, seem to be generally recognized as "calcium carbide" cars, and that the powdered form warranted that type of sealed, small-mouthed
container . . . The reactive properties, and measured usage, of that commodity seem also to have determined its special shipping treatment.

Both calcium carbide and "burnt lime" are VERY hygroscopic and vigorously absorb and react with water to form a new (and usually undesirable) compound. It is essential that they be shipped in isolation from ambient air.

I believe most imported chromium is already in ferrochrome form . . .<

Have you ever heard of any reference as to how this was shipped?

I don't know, but see no reason it can't be shipped in hoppers--it's actually pretty corrosion resistant. Before the 1950s, gondolas would also be candidates. But as the stuff is pretty dense, neither car type could be loaded very full.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony;



Thank you very much for the detailed response!

RE: Aluminum; -to answer the "where" question is look at a list of

aluminum
refining plants, such as Alcoa's plants at Alcoa, Tennessee, Point
Comfort, Texas, Massena, New York, or Vancouver, Washington (note
access to hydroelectric power at most of these).

Tony, aside from uses of processed aluminum, did anyone use raw bauxite ore
in any applications?

RE: Calcium Carbide: grayish-white mineral used in de-sulphurization of
iron. Also used in deoxidization at the ladle, in treatment.
QUESTIONS: Sources? Shipped by what roads? Are these the cylindrical
tanks we have seen shipped on the NYC and RI in dedicated service rack
flats? How much of this was shipped?

Tim O'Connor commented:

I think Union Carbide in WV (on NYC?) produced it, among others. There
must have been production somehwere on the SP too, since SP rebuilt
specially equipped flat cars for this cargo.

The SP cars were built specifically for shipping the carbide TO

the Portland, Oregon plant of Linde Air Products. I don't know where it
originated.

It is interesting that these special converted flat cars, and their even more
unusual containers, seem to be generally recognized as "calcium carbide"
cars, and that the powdered form warranted that type of sealed, small-mouthed
container.

The use of "bulk" containers like the Youngstown container, seems to also
have been often used in the dedicated service of shipping powdered Dolomite,
or "burnt" lime. The reactive properties, and measured usage, of that
commodity seem also to have determined its special shipping treatment.

Both would seem to be especially needed cars on a layout delivering raw
materials to a steel-maker, or foundry.

Chromium: blue-white ore . . . Used in ferrochromium production . .
. Most headed to specialty steel-making facilities (and small
industrial chromium coating concerns, but first through where?)

As the chromium ore is not very useful until reduced to chromium
oxide (whereupon it can be used in refractory brick making) or
ferrochrome (used in steel making), the ore certainly did not go either
to steel companies or platers. I believe most imported chromium is
already in ferrochrome form, much of it made in South Africa. The
ferrochrome, which is around 50 percent chromium, is produced directly
from ore, ordinarily in electric furnaces, and the ore itself contains
the iron, though some smelters beneficiate the ore with scrap steel in
the furnace. If the ferrochrome is low in carbon, it can be used to
charge directly into steel furnaces, particularly for stainless steel.



Have you ever heard of any reference as to how this was shipped?

Again, thanks so much for the detailed responses!

Elden Gatwood



_,_._,___

Every time I bought an injection molded car instead of a resin car I've
been disappointed.

The detail on the resin car is much crisper and of course more accurate.

I don't mind paying more but I do dislike having to buy more than one
car to get a kit.

Ed

Chris, I like it when a manufacturer plans a weight into the design of a
flatcar kit but I don't get concerned if it's not. Light weight flatcars are
the ones that get loads with the weight concealed within the load.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

I do have to express considerable surprise at a
$30 price for 1 flatcar

I too am surprised at the steadily increasing cost of model railroad
supplies.

Last Saturday afternoon I went into Trainland in Lynbrook. Their
shelves very fully stocked with $20+ RTR freight cars including new
blue box with cellophane windows and new P2K assembled cars.

I thought the stored might be jammed but there was only one other
customer.

I overheard the owner telling the other customer that most modelers had
been in the hobby for years and no one wanted to assemble kits any more.

I'll bet most modelers have a whole closet full of kits. Why buy more
boxes to put in the closet when you can buy nice built up models to
display on the shelf?

Years ago when the first custom screened Athearn cars came out I heard
the following conversation - "Bob, how about a box
car?","Sure", "B&O?", "Yep", "CEntral Valley Trucks?", nods
yes, "Kadees?" "yep", salesman went in the back, spray painted the
weight and assembled the car. A three dollar car became a $15 car.
The customer? A guy who stood behind the counter at the post office and
lived in an appartment. Money burned a hole in his pocket. His work on
the trainset was to buy something new every week.

A interesting thing happens when the model railroader gets bored and
finally trys to assemble those kits. The model is a mess by the time
he's through with it.

How about those $40 Red Caboose stock cars?

Let's hope there are still some moderately price train sets around to
bring new blood into the hobby.

Ed

Tim, it's been more than 5 years but I don't remember any serious
difficulties. The hardest bit I do remember is getting the overlay placed
just exactly right the 1st time because I was using contact cement.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

Aah, but I forgot to mention the best part. You get to build it yourself.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

Elden Gatwood wrote:

Aluminum; source area usually overseas (Guinea, Jamaica, Brazil, India); would have entered U.S. ports, most eastern.
QUESTIONS: What ports, and shipped by what roads, where destined, how shipped? How much?

What was imported was bauxite, the mineral from which aluminum is refined, and to a lesser extent, alumina, which is aluminum oxide refined from bauxite and the next step to aluminum metal. All you need to do to answer the "where" question is look at a list of aluminum refining plants, such as Alcoa's plants at Alcoa, Tennessee, Point Comfort, Texas, Massena, New York, or Vancouver, Washington (note access to hydroelectric power at most of these).

Calcium Carbide: grayish-white mineral used in de-sulphurization of iron. Also used in deoxidization at the ladle, in treatment.
QUESTIONS: Sources? Shipped by what roads? Are these the cylindrical tanks we have seen shipped on the NYC and RI in dedicated service rack flats? How much of this was shipped?

Tim O'Connor commented:

I think Union Carbide in WV (on NYC?) produced it, among others. There must have been production somehwere on the SP too, since SP rebuilt specially equipped flat cars for this cargo.

The SP cars were built specifically for shipping the carbide TO the Portland, Oregon plant of Linde Air Products. I don't know where it originated.

Chromium: blue-white ore . . . Used in ferrochromium production . . . Most headed to specialty steel-making facilities (and small industrial chromium coating concerns, but first through where?)

As the chromium ore is not very useful until reduced to chromium oxide (whereupon it can be used in refractory brick making) or ferrochrome (used in steel making), the ore certainly did not go either to steel companies or platers. I believe most imported chromium is already in ferrochrome form, much of it made in South Africa. The ferrochrome, which is around 50 percent chromium, is produced directly from ore, ordinarily in electric furnaces, and the ore itself contains the iron, though some smelters beneficiate the ore with scrap steel in the furnace. If the ferrochrome is low in carbon, it can be used to charge directly into steel furnaces, particularly for stainless steel.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...

Hi Richard,
I was one of several that attempted to provide feedback to IM on the
New Haven NE-5 caboose two years prior to production based on the pilot
with no result.

While there are published photos of one type of NH 19000-series
bulkhead flat (low bulkhead), I have a rare image of the high bulkhead
version.

Do you think it's worth sharing with IM or are they better off just
going on their merry way?

I had another dismal experience with True Line Trains on the New Haven
FM CPA24-5...but that wasn't a freight car so is off topic...

Regards,
Peter

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

Probably not, Andy. When the Santa Fe's Ft-V class were rebuilt as
pulpwood cars, they got an entirely new steel deck that sloped

inward

towards the center, as well as end bulkheads. Modeling all that
would require a lot of new tooling.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In STMFC@..., "Jim & Lisa Hayes" <jimandlisa97225@...>
wrote:

Five years ago Sunshine did a mini-kit for this car with very thin

side

castings to be overlaid over a sanded down Atlas hopper.

I wonder if Terry Wegman could cut an injection molded overlay with the
parts being sold on a subscription basis (modelers order and pay for
the parts before the work is done).

I'm assuming Terry doesn't have much of a cash outlay, doing the work
after hours on his employer's equipment. His PFE reefers are nice and
judging by advertising I doubt he's sold a great many of them, even
with the assembled cars from Intermountain.


Ed

The InterMountain bulkhead flat car will be the B&O version. Some
enterprising B&O guy sent them the drawings and photos they needed.

After watching obscure ATSF and Missouri Pacific versions of popular
car types come out because of some consultant's favorite railroad, it's
feels good to win one.


Jim Mischke
B&OHS Model Committee





--- In STMFC@..., Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:

Intermountain Railway Co.'s dealer newsletter stated that following

the may/June delivery of the 70t flat will be bulkhead flat car
versions. Perhaps they will model the Santa Fe version????

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Filling the box with parts using American labor is nearly as
expensive as assembly in China. That is why kits and RTR are not
that far apart for the same model.

And the pretty box is $2 of the final price.







--- In STMFC@..., "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@>
wrote:

C'mon, guys, get real about prices. I have it on good authority

from

a manufacturer who prefers not to be quoted that the cost of
everything in China - molding, assembly, packaging - is going up
rapidly, and gets higher every week. It won't be long before
assembled HO scale freight car models will be selling in the $40-

$50

range.

Could there be an upside to this? Such as a possible resurgence of
kits vs. rtr, if assembly starts to cost too much over there?

Walt Lankenau

C'mon, guys, get real about prices.

I'm very aware of what's happening w/ currecy exchange rates as well as wage
increases in Chinese made products. I have no doubt that everything you
said about end price escalation will come to be.

As for opinion about the worthyness of the product at that price, sure, it's
subjective. And for the Mfgr, it's their issue to decide too -- smaller runs
at higher prices or the reverse. For the consumer, each modeller will also
make their own choices. For me, I'm pretty sure I have exited model
railroading as you guys know it, favoring the **far** less expensive
computer sims. I still buy resin (and the occasional unowned plastic kit
that I might find interesting) as I enjoy the assembly, paint and decal
process of scale kits. I have no expectation any of it will ever see a
layout. So for me, RTR is as complete and utter waste of money as RTR
plastic combat aircraft, AFV, or naval vessels would be to most military
model enthusasts.

What's the average age of people on this list? 50? 60? Higher? I dunno.
But I do know there are plenty of teenagers who frequent the boards hosting
posts on railroad sims. They're building models of locomotives and cars,
building virtual "layouts" too. As am I and other guys much older than I
am. Are they going to see good value in a $30 flatcar? No way. For a bit
more than $30 they can buy the entire Techachippi route, from Bakersfield to
Mojave (w/o any compression), a dozen locomotives, and a couple dozen
freight cars, and fill out their rolling stock of hundreds of free
downloads. Or Donner Pass, or Cajon.

So while this list might find a $30 flatcar a decent bargain, the younger
generations are, IMO, far, far more likely not even bother to notice the
product even exists, much less care, because the products they go for are
less than 1/10th the price of these models. If they're not free, that is.

So Richard is right -- buy them at this price, because over time, IMO, the
market they're being sold into is going to shrink quite a bit.

Dave Nelson

Gatwood, Elden wrote:

When the PRR was using plain-steel sheet for their lap-seamed roofs, they seemed to have less paint flaking problems than when they went to galvanized roofing (immediate post-war).

Do you mean the PRR did not used galvanized roofing until World War II?? It is evident from Railway Age that many roads were using galvanized steel back in the days of inside and outside metal roofing. That dates back to around 1905.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Oct 15, 2008, at 4:40 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:

Intermountain Railway Co.'s dealer newsletter stated that following
the may/June delivery of the 70t flat will be bulkhead flat car
versions. Perhaps they will model the Santa Fe version????

Probably not, Andy. When the Santa Fe's Ft-V class were rebuilt as
pulpwood cars, they got an entirely new steel deck that sloped inward
towards the center, as well as end bulkheads. Modeling all that
would require a lot of new tooling.

Richard Hendrickson