Rich;



I really appreciate all the info!

Elden,

I have very little information about these cars.

You could have fooled me!

Fd3 numbers 469974 - 469999 (except Fd3a) total 25 cars
Fd3a 469998 one car

They are not in the April 1950 ORER but appear in the July 1951 ORER with
the notation "leased from the United States Army." They are not marked as a
new listing. So I can only narrow the time frame to April 1950 - April 1951
as to when they first appeared on the PRR roster. They are in the January and

April 1952 ORER's but are gone in the July 1953 ORER. Again, I do not have
a specific date when they were returned to the US Army.

There are no drawings or blueprints in the PRRT&HS collection nor on Rob
Schoenburg's site. I have not checked to see if these car numbers are the
same
assigned by DOD. With such a short lease period, it is entirely possible
these cars were never in PRR paint. However, on the other hand, there is no
notation in the ORER indicating these cars carry DODX or USAX reporting
marks.
I have misplaced my copy of Dick Flock's hand out for his clinic on PRR flat
cars. So I have not checked that source for any information on these cars.

My statement that I was under the impression that these cars were leased for
moving equipment into Large and Bettis was based on verbal communications
with a co-worker who is an amateur historian of sorts of Bettis and the Large

facility. He is a PA State Radiological Officer so he does have access to
some information not readily available. I have never pursued this with him as
I
did not want to put him in a compromising position or a position where he
had to say he could not discuss it further. He knows my interest in railroads

and the PRR in particular so he volunteered what he either knew or could
convey.

There was a rail spur into Bettis near the water treatment plant. But any
equipment would have had to be trucked to the main facility from the rail
spur. This spur was served by either the Union or Pittsburgh and West
Virginia
during the applicable time frame. I'm not sure which or it may have been
both.

Wow! That is a lot of info.

I am also very interested is the PRR's Peters Creek Branch, Large, Pa., the
former large Distillery, and what went on there and at other sites along the
branch.

There was also the very secret "strategic materials storage" site further
down toward the river, that also is difficult to dig up info on. Given all
the interest during the Cold War in stockpiling certain metals that were only
found overseas (in economically-viable concentrations, at least), I suspect
that this site, which simply contained big piles of stuff surrounded by a
fence and guarded by a small guardhouse, just got box cars of ore and such
for unloading and safekeeping, "just in case those Commies tried something
smart"...interesting that this spur does not appear on any PRR maps.

Both defy attempts to model them really accurately, although the latter's car
traffic could be guessed at more accurately.

Thanks again, for the great research!

Elden Gatwood



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030000000001> )

The following link shows a Santa Fe freight trains titled Pipe Train,
was this a common shipment and was this from the Kaiser Steel Mill in
Fontana? One ABBA set of F7s and two sets of ABBA FTs, this must of be
one large train. Thanks for any help.
http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/sfa57.html

Michael Bishop

For whoever was asking about steel mill plans a few weeks back, I was poking
around a historical building portion of the Library of Congress - there's a
lot of data on the Bethlehem Steel plan in Bethlehem at:

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/hh:@field(SUBJ+@od1(PENNSYLVANIA--Northampton+County--Bethlehem))

Over the past few months, great swaths of this plant have been demolished to
make way for a casino.

I suppose their might be similar data about other plants as well through the
Historic American Building Survey:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/habs_haer/

And thanks to Fred Willis, from whom I learned about the HABS, at the Valley
Forge RPM meet this weekend.

Dave Smith

Al, it was in a gondola, and I can give you no reason as to why the car was routed
over the Chicago gateway. You are certainly correct that there are other ways to
route shipments to Flint not using a route over Chicago. Perhaps the shipper or
consignee wanted the GTW to receive a larger portion to the line haul rate division?
Tony is of course correct that "pig" only refers to the shape of the metal ingot,
not it's metal technical value.

Happness, Jery Stewart

Woodstock, Illinois



--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:

Was the load of pig iron in a box car or a gondola car? Any guess as to why Alabama

west to Chicago and then back east to Flint?

Al Kresse
Romeo, Michigan
(our GTW line is now Rails to Trails)

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Jerry Stewart wrote:

Elden, as a young lad in the 1950's I remember seeing a load
of pig iron from Birmingham, Al. on the GTW here in the Chicagoland
area that had the misfortune of developing a hot box that resulted in
the journal being burned off and derailing the car. The car was bound
for Chevrolet Gear and Axle at Flint, Mich., for the auto industry was
a big user of high quality pig iron as you stated.

Interesting example, Jerry, and a good addition to Elden's
accurate statement that not all pig iron was just extra-high carbon
iron of little technical value. The "pig" name only refers to the
shapes of the castings, not anything specific about the metal content.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd ordered it [RI LCL caboose] in August 2007 and got the kit in
January 2008. On the plus side
it's a beautiful kit some of the best castings I've seen but their
customer service leaves a lot of room for improvement.

Be kind. This is a one man outfit in what euphemistically has to be
the most "cottage" of cottage industries. That someone produced, and
I subsequently received this truly beautiful kit at all, I consider a
miracle. These RI cabooses were so very, very ugly and ungainly in
real time that I simply now cannot wait to replicate this delicate
beauty in miniature!).

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

--- In STMFC@..., WaltGCox@... wrote:

In a message dated 3/29/2008 7:08:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
tjlawler@... writes:

I have Floquil Roof Brown to start with so I am
thinking a lighter shade of Roof Brown by just mixing with some white.
Can anyone help me out with this color?

UP used this color on the roofs of its early streamliners. Try to find
a color photo of UP's M10000, the City of Salina. Since it was built
in 1934, that might not be easy. I believe some of UP's other early
(pre-war) streamliners used the brown, too.

Walt Lankenau

Tom Lawler wrote:

I am painting a Oscar Mayer meat reefer. The ends and roof
are "medium brown" which the instructions state: "The shade of brown
seems to be similar to the Union Pacific Leaf Brown used on the early
streamliners". I have Floquil Roof Brown to start with so I am
thinking a lighter shade of Roof Brown by just mixing with some
white.
Can anyone help me out with this color?

Well.... That color was called both Leaf Brown and Autumn Brown.
According to photographer Neal Miller, the UP tried two versions, but
neither weathered well, which prompted the change to Harbor Mist Gray.

The two versions seem to have been a golden yellow brown, and a rich
red brown. Coach Yard used the golden brown on their models of the 1938
COSF and COLA trains, while Lionel used the red brown on its model of
the UP's M-10000. UP expert Bob Darwin recommends going with Lionel, as
they had the real thing to compare to. The golden brown, to me, looks
like "diaper brown", and I find the red brown a better color. The
author of an article in MODEL RAILROADER a few years ago on painting UP
E2 diesels in the brown & yellow scheme used DAP's Derusto #865/D-31
Gloss Brown, which looks right to me. Hobby roof brown paints seem to
lack the richness of Leaf (Autumn) Brown, but maybe a touch of red
would cure that.

More than you wanted to know, I'm sure.

Tom Madden

Hi all,

I am painting a Oscar Mayer meat reefer. The ends and roof are "medium brown" which the instructions state: "The shade of brown seems to be similar to the Union Pacific Leaf Brown used on the early streamliners". I have Floquil Roof Brown to start with so I am thinking a lighter shade of Roof Brown by just mixing with some white. Can anyone help me out with this color?

Thanks,

Tom Lawler

The only other information I can locate is

Fd3 class cars 47 3 total length 150000 capacity
Fd3a class car 41-4 total length 150000 capacity

There are no other dimensional data in the ORER

Are there any photos of these cars? What are the DOD or Army road numbers?

Rich Orr

In a message dated 3/29/2008 7:08:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
tjlawler@... writes:

I have Floquil Roof Brown to start with so I am
thinking a lighter shade of Roof Brown by just mixing with some white.
Can anyone help me out with this color?


Hi Tom,
Roof brown should lighten by adding white. It doesn't work with box car red,
which tends to turn pink when white is added. If that happens with roof
brown, try using tan, dust or mud.
Walt Cox



**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
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To narrow the window a little further, these cars are absent from the
January '53 ORER.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., SUVCWORR@... wrote:

Elden,

I have very little information about these cars.

Fd3 numbers 469974 - 469999 (except Fd3a) total 25 cars
Fd3a 469998 one car

They are not in the April 1950 ORER but appear in the July 1951

ORER with

the notation "leased from the United States Army." They are not

marked as a

new listing. So I can only narrow the time frame to April 1950 -

April 1951

as to when they first appeared on the PRR roster. They are in the

January and

April 1952 ORER's but are gone in the July 1953 ORER. Again, I do

not have

a specific date when they were returned to the US Army.

There are no drawings or blueprints in the PRRT&HS collection nor

on Rob

Schoenburg's site. I have not checked to see if these car numbers

are the same

assigned by DOD. With such a short lease period, it is entirely

possible

these cars were never in PRR paint. However, on the other hand,

there is no

notation in the ORER indicating these cars carry DODX or USAX

reporting marks.

I have misplaced my copy of Dick Flock's hand out for his clinic

on PRR flat

cars. So I have not checked that source for any information on

these cars.

My statement that I was under the impression that these cars were

leased for

moving equipment into Large and Bettis was based on verbal

communications

with a co-worker who is an amateur historian of sorts of Bettis and

the Large

facility. He is a PA State Radiological Officer so he does have

access to

some information not readily available. I have never pursued this

with him as I

did not want to put him in a compromising position or a position

where he

had to say he could not discuss it further. He knows my interest

in railroads

and the PRR in particular so he volunteered what he either knew or

could

convey.

There was a rail spur into Bettis near the water treatment plant.

But any

equipment would have had to be trucked to the main facility from

the rail

spur. This spur was served by either the Union or Pittsburgh and

West Virginia

during the applicable time frame. I'm not sure which or it may

have been both.

Rich Orr



**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video

on AOL

Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?

video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chill, Ed. I think that Steve marked the ONE photo as a Bob's Photo source so that people would
know where to go and legitimately buy it. The StLB&M photos are NOT Bob's Photo images, AFAIK. And
I sincerely doubt Steve S is selling prints; I know Steve, and his ethical standards are higher than
you suggest.

SGL

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>

wrote:

The picture is gone now from the web site. Anyone manage
to snag it before it disappeared?

Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

I think my friend emailed images to me this week. I've tucked them here.
<http://ImageEvent.com/up4479/trains <http://ImageEvent.com/up4479/trains> >
Steve Solombrino

Glad you did, Steve, cool photos! Thanks!

SGL

The photos linked below are credited to Bob's photos. And someone is
selling prints? That would be a new low.

I think my friend emailed images to me this week. I've tucked them

here.

<http://ImageEvent.com/up4479/trains>
Steve Solombrino

Steve, nice paint job on the tank car -- where did you
get the decals?? Or did you make your own?

http://photos.imageevent.com/up4479/brass/P0000896.JPG

Tim O'Connor

Thanks Steve. Turned out I already had other images of the BAR
and StLB&M box, but I hadn't seen that old MP box car before.

Tim

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:

This is "virtual product" :-)

We tend to find that having two lettering schemes available
concurrently doesn't do the sales of either one any good, so once we
do one scheme, we tend not to go back to that well for a couple years,
but we're always happy to do multiple schemes as custom cars for the
societies. With the more targeted market, the multiple versions sell.

Dennis Storzek
Accurail, Inc.

Let's go, CNWHS! ;-) But with their recent CMO gondola model, it seems
doubtful that they would pick another gon to run so soon.

I hope this as-built scheme makes the Trainfest group, since those cars
seem to sell out fast and are limited in quantity, AKA wouldn't hurt
the stock model sales. It seems like even the C&NW boxcar from last
year, which was a new roadnumber in the stock paint scheme, even sold
out quickly.

My fingers are crossed.
Andy Laurent

Thursday night I was at a friends for an ops session and noticed he had both the Stewart CGW hoppers and a MRC hopper lettered CGW. One of the fellas asked about the company that made the side door RI caboose. I said "Rocket express? They make a box car too." He said he was hoping they would make a regular RI SS caboose. And third, The host had been taking some photos of his layout and noticed how wide the shinning threads were of is freight car wheels.

I thought it quite a coincidence since neither of these guys are list members or even Yahoo.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

Was the load of pig iron in a box car or a gondola car? Any guess as to why Alabama west to Chicago and then back east to Flint?

Al Kresse
Romeo, Michigan
(our GTW line is now Rails to Trails)

Is Rocket Express still in business? I have sent an email using the

link on their website three weeks ago and have never received a reply.
Searching the archives, I see that this question is asked with some
regularlity. I have read good reviews of their kits on this list and
would like to pruchase a couple. TIA for any help.

Ed Sommer
San Jose, CA

Ed, I'd ordered (and did receive it) their RI LCL caboose. I'd ordered
it in August 2007 and got the kit in January 2008. On the plus side
it's a beautiful kit some of the best castings I've seen but their
customer service leaves a lot of room for improvement.

Charlie