Date   

Re: resin versus injection molded

mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

. . . I do dislike having to buy more than one
car to get a kit.
Meaning what? Trying to find enough parts that match?

Walt Lankenau


Fw: Mineral Service on your Roads

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Norman+Laraine Larkin
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Mineral Service on your Roads


This is an interesting topic, Elden. Although what I'm about to say occurred 1968/1969 on the B&M, there's nothing to say something similar didn't occur in the 40s and 50s elsewhere. There were several major construction projects in the Metropolitan Boston area that required large amounts of gravel. One project, the I-95 extension north of Boston, required some 3.5M cubic yards of gravel alone over a nine month period. The B&M provided 300 70-ton hoppers, but required more. They leased 200 B&LE hoppers (5-year lease); 100 Pennsy hoppers (per diem lease) ; 50 BAR hoppers (per diem lease); and 18 Portland Terminal hoppers. Three 60-car trains and one 48-car train were run per day for the I-95 project, two additional trains were run for the Logan Airport expansion. It was a fascinating operation, but the point is the railroad had to lease cars from other carriers, in this case, five different road names in captive, regularly scheduled mineral service. I wonder how many times this occurred in our time frame. The above information was taken from the Winter 1974-1975 issue of the B&M Bulletin from an article by H. Bentley Crouch.
Regards
Norm Larkin


----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Mineral Service on your Roads


Folks;

I have been doing a bunch more reading on minerals shipped by the railroads,
and figure you could have an interest. This may create a more interesting
through or set-out operation for you, or even an on-line industrial
interchange with your road, if we can figure out what cars were used by what
roads, in this service.

We have pretty good ideas of what roads shipped coal, and iron ore, but there
is a lot that can be done to ID some of the rest, some of which was shipped
in open hoppers, others in covered hoppers, and even box cars. Mineral
service was a huge amount of the traffic on most roads, even those you
wouldn't think of, so I hope we can figure some of this out.

Here we go:

Aluminum; source area usually overseas (Guinea, Jamaica, Brazil, India);
would have entered U.S. ports, most eastern.

QUESTIONS: What ports, and shipped by what roads, where destined, how
shipped? How much?

Ammonium Sulfate; by-product of coking industry; used as soil amendment,
white to yellow powder, shipped most often bagged, in box cars. Sources:
Coke Industry - Bethlehem Steel, Colorado Fuel & Iron, Crucible Steel,
Detroit Steel, Eastern Gas & Fuel, Ford Motor Co., Granite City Steel, Inland
Steel, Interlake Iron, International Harvester, Jones & Laughlin, Kaiser
Steel, Merritt-Chapman & Scott-Tennessee Products & Chemical, National Steel,
Pittsburgh Coke & Chemical, Pittsburgh Steel, Republic Steel, Sharon Steel,
U.S. Pipe & Foundry, U.S. Steel (numerous locations), Wheeling Steel,
Woodward Iron, Youngstown Sheet & Tube (to start) If you want more details
about any of these facilities' production rates or locations, ask!

Questions: Where did all this bagged product go first, before it went to
local feed & fertilizer distributors?

Calcium Carbide: grayish-white mineral used in de-sulphurization of iron.
Also used in deoxidization at the ladle, in treatment.

QUESTIONS: Sources? Shipped by what roads? Are these the cylindrical tanks
we have seen shipped on the NYC and RI in dedicated service rack flats? How
much of this was shipped?

Chromium: blue-white ore; by 1952, 40% was coming from Turkey, 38% South
Africa, some from s. Egypt & Cuba (i.e., 79% import), with small amounts from
Montana, California, Oregon, and Alabama. Used in ferrochromium production.
Most coming through ports of Philadelphia, Baltimore (others??). Shipped
most often in open twin hoppers not filled to volumetric capacity due to
weight. Most headed to specialty steel-making facilities (and small
industrial chromium coating concerns, but first through where?)

QUESTIONS: What other ports, and shipped by what roads? How much?

More minerals, later! Any input appreciated.

Elden Gatwood


flat car loads was New HO scale 70-ton flatcar

Bruce Smith
 

On Wed, October 15, 2008 2:52 pm, rockroll50401 wrote:
Here's my dilemma with flat cars.
<SNIP>
Like I said, a bigger concern than the price of the flat car model
is the price of what to put on them as a load. Priced any period
model farm machinery lately? It is conceivable to wrap nearly $100
in the load. That's beyond practical!

Clark Propst
And the same is true for nice resin models of military equipment. While
you can still get Roco for $10 or so per vehicle, there are a lot more
models than that. How about a couple of M18 Hellcats in resin in HO with
etched details <ka-ching!> or a resin LCVP for a load <ka-ching!> or resin
armoured recovery vehicles... not to mention the time to assemble paint
and decal them too <VBG>! Fortunately the resin jeeps for my "16 pack"
were less than the Roco jeeps... with Roco, the load would have been
$150!!

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: resin versus injection molded

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bill Schneider, who should know, wrote:
A sweeping statement like this is bound to cause some discussion on the list, but.. I'd venture to say that a LOT depends on WHO's resin and/or injected kits your comparing! There are good, bad and ugly in BOTH camps... :>)
Hear, hear. Many on this list could make up lists of the GB&U for both resin and styrene off the top of their heads.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: IRC 1958 cuft hoppers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Eric Mumper wrote:
Just went over to the Intermountain website and it looks like the new 1958 cuft covered hoppers are available and the site has pictures of actual models - not just drawings. Has anyone seen these and can anyone comment on their accuracy and quality of assembly? Always want to ask this since first runs can have "issues".
I saw a couple of complete models at the SP Society convention last month. They looked excellent, with fine grab iron detail like the Kadee PS-2 models. Of course that's not a measure of production. Accuracy, as Tim O'Connor pointed out a few days ago, depends on your prototype: does it have double latch "fingers" or single? double latch bars on each side or single? is the roof smooth, riveted or ribbed? As for "now" I don't think you're right. Frank Angstead of Intermountain said they HOPED they would have the first batch in by Christmas. But if anyone knows more, please enlighten us.

Currently there are about 150 of the Bowser/Kato/E&B Valley cars moving silica sand around my layout and an upgrade would be nice.
They will be an immense upgrade over E&B Valley, and still a distinct upgrade over Bowser and Kato--far better grab irons. I haven't yet seen a Bowser paint job that had accurate lettering, so I have a low opinion of those cars and have built Katos instead. But I think the IM cars will be a serious piece of progress.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Piedmont & Northern Caboose

Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
 

Bob:
That would be fabulous. My wife's father is a railfan for the
Piedmont & Northern and my wife has asked me to build him an O scale caboose
of his favorite line to put on the mantle of his fire place. Hence, I am
trying to get a good photo so I can find a close caboose and then build the
requested model, helping me with both wife and father-in-law!
Your help would be deeply, deeply appreciated!
I model HO an extension of the Santa Fe's Clarkdale branch circa
1926, but am happy to learn more about the P&N and the railroads of the SE.

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ
ehiser@...

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Bob
McCarthy
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 9:05 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Piedmont & Northern Caboose

Eric,
 
     How about we go to Greenwood and get some pictures for you.  What else
do you need.
 
     We are in Columbia, SC and not that far from Greenwood.  Luckily I am
married to a woman who has riddden in steam engine cabs as a child.  She
likes and understand railroads.
 
     Want a show of hands for those married guys who have a wife who will
say while having dinner, "You know we need to start a communter line from
Newberry, SC to Columbia, SC."
I submit I am very lucky, she even has relatives, Uncle Shelby Lowe, who
wrote the book on Southern steam, a Grandfather E.E. Lowe who was the Senior
Conductor on The Southern Cresent when he retired, with a Great Grandfather
Alonzo Lowe who was an engineer for a line that the Southern absorbed. 
 
    So she will say 'road trip' if you send me the website of the museum. 
We will get everything we can for you. 
 
     Are you in HO?
 
Bob McCarthy
Modeling in Scale S the Mighty Central of Georgia in the 1950's

--- On Wed, 10/15/08, Eric Hiser <ehiser@...> wrote:

From: Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Piedmont & Northern Caboose
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 3:43 AM






I am looking for a photograph of a Piedmont & Northern Caboose, preferably
during the early part of the 20th Century. I have checked the P&N book, but
the photo in it is not very helpful. I know that there is a preserved
caboose at the Railroad Historical Center in Greenwood, SC, but they do not
have a photo of any of the equipment on the webpage. Does anyone have a
photo that they could share or a reference to where one may be? It would be
appreciated!

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ
ehiser@...


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Branchline Kit No.1504 Detroit, Toledo & Ironton 8' door boxcar

WaltGCox@...
 

I just received one of these kits, car # 14493 which arrived with black ends
and a silver diagonal panel roof.
The Branchline illustration seems to indicate a black roof as do the few
photos I have seen of D,T&I boxcars. I model CN (in 1959) and am not all that
familiar with D,T&I, it just seemed like an interesting off line car. Could
anyone more familiar with the road comment on the silver roof? TIA Walt
**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out
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Re: alternate standard twin offset hopper

Paul Lyons
 

Ed Mines said:

His PFE reefers are nice and
judging by advertising I doubt he's sold a great many of them, even
with the assembled cars from Intermountain.


Ed,
Just out of curiousity, what do you think in numbers is not "a great many"? I think the answer?will surprise you.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: ed_mines <ed_mines@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:59 am
Subject: [STMFC] alternate standard twin offset hopper






--- In STMFC@..., "Jim & Lisa Hayes" <jimandlisa97225@...>
wrote:
Five years ago Sunshine did a mini-kit for this car with very thin
side
castings to be overlaid over a sanded down Atlas hopper.
I wonder if Terry Wegman could cut an injection molded overlay with the
parts being sold on a subscription basis (modelers order and pay for
the parts before the work is done).

I'm assuming Terry doesn't have much of a cash outlay, doing the work
after hours on his employer's equipment. His PFE reefers are nice and
judging by advertising I doubt he's sold a great many of them, even
with the assembled cars from Intermountain.

Ed


Re: alternate standard twin offset hopper?

Bill Darnaby
 

I have built several of the Sunshine conversions and found the thin overlay easy to use. I wicked ACC between the overlay and body and have used both Athearn and Atlas twins. The hard part is realizing that, after this effort, one feels compelled to replace grabs, etc, etc...

Bill Darnaby


Re: resin versus injection molded

Bill Schneider <branchline@...>
 

Ed,

A sweeping statement like this is bound to cause some discussion on the list, but.. I'd venture to say that a LOT depends on WHO's resin and/or injected kits your comparing! There are good, bad and ugly in BOTH camps... :>)

Bill Schneider

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] resin versus injection molded


Every time I bought an injection molded car instead of a resin car I've
been disappointed.

The detail on the resin car is much crisper and of course more accurate.

I don't mind paying more but I do dislike having to buy more than one
car to get a kit.

Ed


IRC 1958 cuft hoppers

Eric Mumper <ericmumper@...>
 

Group,

Just went over to the Intermountain website and it looks like the new
1958 cuft covered hoppers are available and the site has pictures of
actual models - not just drawings. Has anyone seen these and can
anyone comment on their accuracy and quality of assembly? Always want
to ask this since first runs can have "issues".

These are going to be a major wallet cleanser. Currently there are
about 150 of the Bowser/Kato/E&B Valley cars moving silica sand around
my layout and an upgrade would be nice.

Thanks for any insight.

Eric Mumper
http://www.foxriverbranch.com


Re: New HO scale 70-ton flatcar

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Here's my dilemma with flat cars.

I'm with Gene Green. We model the M&StL. Gene has shared
the "Landermesser Lists" with me/others. Although it can be argued
the lists aren't an accurate cross section of traffic on the
railroad, I think they're pretty close and beside they're about all
we have. Out of almost 1400 entries only about 150 are FM type flat
cars. About a third of those were home road cars.
As a disciplined prototype modeler I try to buy cars off `the list'
that carried lading pertinent to the industries I model. And keeping
in mind that one in three needs to be home road.

Life-Like makes a nice model lettered for the home road and Sunshine
will eventually have the other style 50' home road flat. I have a
Pennsy Bowser F something or other model (with pipe load) lettered
for the same series that is on `the list' and a Sunshine CNW car
(tractors) numbered from `the list'. But, that's where I end with
the discipline thing. I have a CB&Q car (Bulldozer in gates) that
Martin gave away at his Tupperware party. I have the Red Caboose SP
fter (plows and seeders), just for variety. I will buy the IM car,
again for variety. So, I can add another home road car. That will be
about all the flats I can afford to put loads on.

Like I said, a bigger concern than the price of the flat car model
is the price of what to put on them as a load. Priced any period
model farm machinery lately? It is conceivable to wrap nearly $100
in the load. That's beyond practical!

Clark Propst


Re: Mineral Service on your Roads

Tim O'Connor
 

There was a large aluminum refining plant located in Montana on
the GN -- featured in a 1950's GN annual report. The alumina that
was processed in Vancouver WA didn't need to travel by rail -- it
came in directly off ocean vessels. You're right that cheap hydro
power is the key factor.

Tim O'

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

What was imported was bauxite, the mineral from which aluminum
is refined, and to a lesser extent, alumina, which is aluminum oxide
refined from bauxite and the next step to aluminum metal. All you need
to do to answer the "where" question is look at a list of aluminum
refining plants, such as Alcoa's plants at Alcoa, Tennessee, Point
Comfort, Texas, Massena, New York, or Vancouver, Washington (note
access to hydroelectric power at most of these).


Re: Mineral Service on your Roads

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Cyril Durrenberger wrote:
I think Alcoa at one time mined bauxite near Bauzite, Arkansas and I
think they had a smelter there too. 
There was never a smelter at Bauxite, only an ore beneficiation
plant to prepare ore for shipment to alumina plants.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...


Re: Mineral Service on your Roads

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Cyril Durrenberger wrote:
Buaxite is imported to Point Comfort, Texas where it is "refined" to
alumina and then shipped in covered hoppers to the Alcoa smelter in
Rockdale, Texas.  At Rockdale they get their power from locally mined
lignite.  Alcoa has announced that they will close the smelter soon.
Originally aluminum metal was produced at Point Comfort with
cheap natural gas providing the power. As the price of gas increased,
the change to Rockdale was made.

 I think Alcoa at one time mined bauxite near Bauzite, Arkansas and I
think they had a smelter there too.  As I recall the ore was poor
grade and they closed the plant long ago.
The ore at Bauxite, Arkansas was indeed not of high grade, but
the deposit was exhausted before closure.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Mineral Service on your Roads

Cyril Durrenberger
 

"What was imported was bauxite, the mineral from which aluminum
is refined, and to a lesser extent, alumina, which is aluminum oxide
refined from bauxite and the next step to aluminum metal. All you need
to do to answer the "where" question is look at a list of aluminum
refining plants, such as Alcoa's plants at Alcoa, Tennessee, Point
Comfort, Texas, Massena, New York, or Vancouver, Washington (note
access to hydroelectric power at most of these)."
 
Buaxite is imported to Point Comfort, Texas where it is "refined" to alumina and then shipped in covered hoppers to the Alcoa smelter in Rockdale, Texas.  At Rockdale they get their power from locally mined lignite.  Alcoa has announced that they will close the smelter soon.
 
I think Alcoa at one time mined bauxite near Bauzite, Arkansas and I think they had a smelter there too.  As I recall the ore was poor grade and they closed the plant long ago.

Cyril Durrenberger


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Mineral Service on your Roads

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gatwood, Elden wrote:
Tony, aside from uses of processed aluminum, did anyone use raw bauxite ore in any applications?
I'm not aware of any.

It is interesting that these special converted flat cars, and their even more unusual containers, seem to be generally recognized as "calcium carbide" cars, and that the powdered form warranted that type of sealed, small-mouthed
container . . . The reactive properties, and measured usage, of that commodity seem also to have determined its special shipping treatment.
Both calcium carbide and "burnt lime" are VERY hygroscopic and vigorously absorb and react with water to form a new (and usually undesirable) compound. It is essential that they be shipped in isolation from ambient air.

I believe most imported chromium is already in ferrochrome form . . .<
Have you ever heard of any reference as to how this was shipped?
I don't know, but see no reason it can't be shipped in hoppers--it's actually pretty corrosion resistant. Before the 1950s, gondolas would also be candidates. But as the stuff is pretty dense, neither car type could be loaded very full.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Mineral Service on your Roads

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tony;



Thank you very much for the detailed response!



RE: Aluminum; -to answer the "where" question is look at a list of
aluminum
refining plants, such as Alcoa's plants at Alcoa, Tennessee, Point
Comfort, Texas, Massena, New York, or Vancouver, Washington (note
access to hydroelectric power at most of these).

Tony, aside from uses of processed aluminum, did anyone use raw bauxite ore
in any applications?

RE: Calcium Carbide: grayish-white mineral used in de-sulphurization of
iron. Also used in deoxidization at the ladle, in treatment.
QUESTIONS: Sources? Shipped by what roads? Are these the cylindrical
tanks we have seen shipped on the NYC and RI in dedicated service rack
flats? How much of this was shipped?
Tim O'Connor commented:
I think Union Carbide in WV (on NYC?) produced it, among others. There
must have been production somehwere on the SP too, since SP rebuilt
specially equipped flat cars for this cargo.
The SP cars were built specifically for shipping the carbide TO
the Portland, Oregon plant of Linde Air Products. I don't know where it
originated.

It is interesting that these special converted flat cars, and their even more
unusual containers, seem to be generally recognized as "calcium carbide"
cars, and that the powdered form warranted that type of sealed, small-mouthed
container.

The use of "bulk" containers like the Youngstown container, seems to also
have been often used in the dedicated service of shipping powdered Dolomite,
or "burnt" lime. The reactive properties, and measured usage, of that
commodity seem also to have determined its special shipping treatment.

Both would seem to be especially needed cars on a layout delivering raw
materials to a steel-maker, or foundry.

Chromium: blue-white ore . . . Used in ferrochromium production . .
. Most headed to specialty steel-making facilities (and small
industrial chromium coating concerns, but first through where?)
As the chromium ore is not very useful until reduced to chromium
oxide (whereupon it can be used in refractory brick making) or
ferrochrome (used in steel making), the ore certainly did not go either
to steel companies or platers. I believe most imported chromium is
already in ferrochrome form, much of it made in South Africa. The
ferrochrome, which is around 50 percent chromium, is produced directly
from ore, ordinarily in electric furnaces, and the ore itself contains
the iron, though some smelters beneficiate the ore with scrap steel in
the furnace. If the ferrochrome is low in carbon, it can be used to
charge directly into steel furnaces, particularly for stainless steel.



Have you ever heard of any reference as to how this was shipped?

Again, thanks so much for the detailed responses!

Elden Gatwood



_,_._,___


resin versus injection molded

ed_mines
 

Every time I bought an injection molded car instead of a resin car I've
been disappointed.

The detail on the resin car is much crisper and of course more accurate.

I don't mind paying more but I do dislike having to buy more than one
car to get a kit.

Ed


Re: New HO scale 70-ton flatcar

Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

Chris, I like it when a manufacturer plans a weight into the design of a
flatcar kit but I don't get concerned if it's not. Light weight flatcars are
the ones that get loads with the weight concealed within the load.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
leakinmywaders
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 9:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New HO scale 70-ton flatcar

Jim: Hi, do you have a plan for weighting ther Protowest flats? The
drawback to the kit is the lack of provision for a weight sandwich
between the deck and frame. I guess it'll have to be rectangles of
lead sheet fitted into the underframe spaces.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT