Aley, Jeff A wrote:

Would the acid have been shipped in cars leased by FMC, or in cars leased by P&G?

Yes. (or to be more specific, could be either, but usually it's the shipper.) A company which leases cars can use them as it chooses, but the most obvious reason to guarantee yourself availability of cars is to make outbound shipments in them.
On the Swift cars, I'd guess they were simply a lease fleet. The person who probably knows more on this is Richard Hendrickson, but he's in Scandinavia right now.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Ben Hom wrote:

A few railroads listed express reefers and boxcars in the ORER, but most did not. You need to go the the Official Railway Passenger Train Equipment Register to find these cars.

Well, the ORPTER did not begin publication by the time the MN&S ceased passenger service. Prior to the startup of the ORPTER, many railroads DID list passenger equipment in the ORER, though in a section separate from the freight cars, normally at the end of their entry pages.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Sun, September 7, 2008 5:57 pm, parkcitybranch wrote:

I am getting ready to have a PRR X-31 painted and need to know the
color of the underframe and the trucks. According to the Sunshine
Models documentation it states the trucks were black, but I have seen
some people's models that had the trucks painted the same color as the
car body. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Jason Sanford

Jason,

Underframe - FCC
Trucks - as Elden says in TKM each time he paints a car
"From the �Instructions for Painting Freight
Equipment Cars�, dated January 13, 1953,
reproduced from the Pennsylvania State Archives, we
see that: �Paint all metal parts with two coats of
�Wet-on-Wet� Freight Car Paint, Acct. 47, Ref.
2383.� Except when the car was new and featured
re-conditioned trucks, the trucks were not painted."

So, my trucks are usually grime colored, but on new cars that have been
built recently, I do use FCC as a change of pace.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Cyril Durrenberger asked:
"At the site listed below there is a photo of MN&S express
refrigerator 911 taken in 1940.  I do not find this listed in the
ORER's.  Does anyone know anything about these cars?  Number series,
number of cars, when they ran.  And, why would this line have this
sort of car when they stopped passenger service at about this time.
It appears that their passenger service was based on gas-electrics so
it is not clear that they would pull a very long train."
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1036241

A few railroads listed express reefers and boxcars in the ORER, but
most did not. You need to go the the Official Railway Passenger
Train Equipment Register to find these cars. The M&NS may have
ceased passenger traffic in the early 1940s, but this car certainly
dates before that date, and would have been needed by the railroad to
cover any perishable express business.


"Also there is an interesting photo of MN&S reefer 809.  The ORER's
from 1919 to 1934 list box cars in number series 800 to 810.  They
were not listed in 1939.  There are no reefers listed in the ORER's
for the MN&S.  Anyone know what is going on with these cars?"
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1036280

First, this car may look like a reefer but it appears to lack ice
hatches, making it an insulated boxcar. Additionally, another reason
it may not appear in ORER listings may be the car is not in revenue
service, either from M&NS 800-810 or from a paid-off wrecked foreign
road car. What are the dimensions and details from the ORER
regarding MN&S 800-810? Do they appear to match this car?


Ben Hom

Cyril Durrenberger wrote:

I am doing some research on the Minneapolis, Northfield and Southern

in Minnesota...

Also there is an interesting photo of MN&S reefer 809.  The ORER's

from 1919 to 1934 list box cars in number series 800 to 810.  They
were not listed in 1939.  There are no reefers listed in the ORER's
for the MN&S.  Anyone know what is going on with these cars?

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1036280

Cyril,
In 1935, cars 800-809 are listed as car type XI (insulated box,
although the description merely says "Box". Notice that reefer hatches
or hatch platforms aren't visible in the photo. The series is not
listed in Jan. 1940.
I've learned to be a bit skeptical of dates in rrpicturearchive.
Apparently it allows only an exact date to be entered, so 1/1/1940
doesn't necessarily mean the photos were taken that day. It could mean
that the info with the original photo said Jan 1940, or 1940, or circa
1940. (or the date could just be an error).

Jack Mullen

Normally, a customer will lease cars for a number of years and use them for its needs only. FMC may only have a one time or 2 year contract to supply P&G and the minimum lease term is 10 years. FMC needs to sell its products and it cannot afford to miss a sale because its buyer is not in a position to supply cars. P&G did not go out and lease other tank cars in case a supplier could not otherwise support its sales.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

Hi Folks,

I have a question about private-owner cars (e.g. leased tank cars) and how they were operated circa 1950.

Let us suppose that Food Machinery & Chemical (FMC) has a factory that produces phosphoric acid.
Let us also suppose that FMC ships the acid to Proctor & Gamble (P&G) for the manufacture of laundry soap.

Would the acid have been shipped in cars leased by FMC, or in cars leased by P&G?

Generically, if a company owned or leased freight cars, would they be used only for outbound shipments, or would they also be used for inbound raw materials?

A secondary example would be the fact that Swift & Co. owned stock cars. How would they have been used? [E.g. Farmer sells his cattle to Swift, so Swift has their car sent to the loading point so that Mr. Farmer can put his stock on the Swift car???]

Thanks,

-Jeff Aley

I am doing some research on the Minneapolis, Northfield and Southern in Minnesota.

At the site listed below there is a photo of  MN&S express refrigerator  911 taken in 1940.  I do not find this listed in the ORER's.  Does anyone know anything about these cars?  Number series, number of cars, when they ran.  And, why would this line have this sort of car when they stopped passenger service at about this time.  It appears that their passenger service was based on gas-electrics so it is not clear that they would pull a very long train.



http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1036241

Also there is an interesting photo of MN&S reefer 809.  The ORER's from 1919 to 1934 list box cars in number series 800 to 810.  They were not listed in 1939.  There are no reefers listed in the ORER's for the MN&S.  Anyone know what is going on with these cars?



http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1036280


Also I am trying to locate a roster of MN&S steam locomotives.  Please contact me off list on this topic.

Thanks,

Cyril Durrenberger
---

I am getting ready to have a PRR X-31 painted and need to know the
color of the underframe and the trucks. According to the Sunshine
Models documentation it states the trucks were black, but I have seen
some people's models that had the trucks painted the same color as the
car body. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Jason Sanford

David Snook wrote:
"I am trying to find more information on Midland Valley open hoppers
in the series 9000-9024. Have plans of these cars ever been published
(the AAR design, not specifically the MV cars)? I would like to model
several of these cars in HO."

The January 1986 issue of Mainline Modeler had a prototype article on
N&W Class H-4 triples by Roy Hurlbut with plans by Bob Hundman.
Additionally, if you're interested in building these cars, you might
want to get a copy of John Munson's article in the February 1986 issue
of Mainline Modeler, where he kitbashed a model of this car from two
Athearn War Emergency twins. While the kitbash ended up being more
involved than simply cutting and splicing two kit bodies together, it's
very creative modeling that's well worth reading.
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns2091.jpeg


Ben Hom

Tim O'Connor wrote:

SP acquired only 5 of the New Haven cars in 1961 (Note: error in Tony's SP Freight
Cars Vol. 3 book, page 296).

Not an error, Tim. The column showing "No. of car" reflects the original NH class. Note two columns to the right that car numbers were 510475-510479; also note in Table 13-1, page 278, that this number group is shown as five cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Peter Ness wrote:

The production cars (18100-18299) were assembled by the New Haven . . . the cars were not well recieved and these same cars were sold (or leased? - need someone with SP data here) to the Southern Pacific.

Not exactly. The SP leased 50 of the cars for a few months, then bought 5 and returned the rest. I don't know why they chose to buy so few as 5. But photos and data are in my SP Freight Cars, Vol. 3, which includes flat cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Armand Premo writes:

"I suspect that most members of this list are interested in prototype
operation.The movement of trains with freight and passenger cars are
rigidly controlled by schedules.Several questions regarding train order
boards:How do they function in relation to the scheduled movements of
trains?Why are they so seldom modeled?Is there a source for a model of
one."

As Andy Sperandeo points out, the topic of train order signals is out of scope for the STMFC. As Andy also points out, Tomar makes a nice model. What he did not mention, Armand, is that you have stood quite close to the fully operational Tomar train order signals at Buford on my layout. Come November when the snow [ whatever that is ] begins to accumulate to the roof tops up there and you return once again to Paradise [ assuming the named thunderstorms have vacated the area ], I'll let you operate them.

Mike Brock

Hello Armand,

In the first place, I think your questions are off-topic for this list, and there's another
Yahoo list, the Ry-ops-industrialSIG list, that deals directly with these matters. But here
are some brief answers:

First, the movement of freight trains has often been anything but rigidly scheduled. In the
period covered by this list many railroads operated freight trains as extras without any
timetable authority, and that's the prevailing mode in today's railroading although the
term "extra train" is no longer used. Railroads that did use second-and third-class
schedules for freight trains often used them as schedules of convenience, meaning that
any train prepared to move within the span of a given timetable schedule might use the
train number of that schedule. Second- and third-class schedules generally functioned as
moving windows of authority with a 12-hour span (because unfulfilled timetable
schedules expire after 12 hours). So that part of your premise was incorrect.

Train order signals are used in a timetable-and-train-order operating regime to indicate
whether clearances and orders are to be delivered to passing trains at a station or train
order office. (They typically aren't used at subdivision or district terminals, since all trains
require at least a clearance card at their initial station.) When three-indication signals are
used, a green or vertical aspect indicates no orders, a yellow or 45-degree aspect
indicates orders to be delivered as the train passes, or "on the fly," and a red or horizontal
aspect indicates orders requiring the conductors' or trainman's signature, meaning the
train must stop.

As to why they are so seldom modeled, most model railroads don't operate in very close
adherence to prototype rules. Those that do and that use timetable-and-train-order
movement authority usually have train-order signals of some type. Typically train order
signals are not used with Centralized Traffic Control.

In HO scale, operating train order signals are available from Tomar Industries. See the
manufacturer's listings on the NMRA Web site at www.nmra.org.

My apologies for this divergence from freight car topics.

So long,

Andy

The Southern Pacific bought 150 79'6" Clejan flat cars in 1957,
and added 100 more 85' Clejan flats in 1959. SP acquired only 5
of the New Haven cars in 1961 (Note: error in Tony's SP Freight
Cars Vol. 3 book, page 296). SP rebuilt the 79'6" cars in 1961
to 85' and reconfigured them for container service. Overland
imported models of the New Haven flats (not correct for SP's
F-50-17) in HO scale. In 1964 SP began rebuilding all of their
85' cars to 89'. )The former Clejan cars received automobile
racks.) SP bought a total of 672 79'6" or 85' piggyback flats
from 1957 to 1960. The old Athearn 85' F85 is very similar to
the 50 SP F-70-17 flats bought in 1960, and it can be used as
is for the period 1960-1965. Half of the F-70-17's were leased
to PFE 1962-1964, operating with PFF reporting marks.

All of the prototype data (and lots more) is found in Tony's
SP Freight Cars Vol. 3 book. Everyone should have these books
if nothing else for the spectacular collection of photos!

Tim O'Connor

I suspect that most members of this list are interested in prototype
operation.The movement of trains with freight and passenger cars are
rigidly controlled by schedules.Several questions regarding train order
boards:How do they function in relation to the scheduled movements of
trains?Why are they so seldom modeled?Is there a source for a model of
one.Your feedback will be welcomed.Armand Premo

Hey guys!
New member, here...professional model builder, Mississippi Central (!
905-1967) fan.
I have a request to build an HO copy of the business car of the Fruit
Growers Express company. The recipient is an old gent named Durwood
Grubbs, who was a draftsman for the company in the early days in
Alexandria, VA. Have any ideas where I might find pics or info for this
car?

Thanks in advance!
Brion

I have some HO scale locomotives and a variety of railroad books listed on
eBay that end tomorrow night
http://stores.ebay.com/Espee-F-5

Remember to check back later this week because I'll be posting more goodies.

Thanks for looking!


Rob Sarberenyi
espeef5@...

Hi Folks

Ed Hawkins has kindly given me all the information needed to complete
our knowledge of the DS/SS/Steel split for MoPac box and auto cars
from 1938 to 1950:

MP____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-49____Jul-50
DS____2,008____1,907____1,689____1,166____1,041
SS____12,179____12,078____12,023____11,870____11,837
Steel____2,500____2,615____3,581____5,156____5,150
Other____0____0____0____0____0
Unknown____0____0____0____0____0
Total____16,687____16,600____17,293____18,192____18,028

MP____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-49____Jul-50
DS____12.0%____11.5%____9.8%____6.4%____5.8%
SS____73.0%____72.8%____69.5%____65.2%____65.7%
Steel____15.0%____15.8%____20.7%____28.3%____28.6%
Other____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%
Unknown____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%
Total____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%

Other people who have provided information are Al Brown, Ray Breyer,
and Charles Shope. Thanks, gentlemen!

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

David -

These cars in AC&F lot #2605 also included (50) cars in Mo-Ill series
#6200-6249. I have no concrete information on the MV cars; however,
the N&W also had VERY SIMILAR triple composite hoppers of this design
built in this time frame, and models of these cars HAVE been imported
in "O" scale by PSC (#15693) as N&W class H-4. (I have never been in
HO, so do not know about it, but you might check with someone
knowledgable about PSC's HO offerings - sometimes they imported the
same model in both scales).

The MP cars had composite (wood) sides and floors when built. In the
early 1950's (out of my time frame of expertise), all the wood was
replaced with steel. (PSC imported these, too.) Later in the
1950's, a number of these cars received tight bays (like a covered
hopper in class LO) and tight roofs. They kept the original diagonal
bracing on the sides. In this configuration they were classed LO and
used to haul cement.

I measured a couple of the prototype MP hoppers years ago. When
the "O" scale PSC model was imported, it checked on all dimensions
with the MP cars; even the slope sheet angle from horizontal was
correct. If that model is available in HO, it would make life a lot
easier for you!

<Parenthetically, things are not always as they appear. The 70-ton
quad offset side hoppers on MP (and M-K-T, Erie, etc.) were found to
have a different angle of their slope sheets from horizontal when
compared to the B&O/C&O quad offset hoppers from the same builder at
the same date. This was only revealed by careful measurement of the
prototype cars!>

As for drawings, they may be in the 1943 CBC (it is at home and I am
not). I recall that my drawings were in an early "Eagle" of the
MPHS, long out of print.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "David" <david.snook@...> wrote:

Hello-

I am trying to find more information on Midland Valley open hoppers

in

the series 9000-9024. Built by AC&F lot 2655 in 2-44, 2580cu.ft.
Doing a search of older posts I found the following:

AAR composite Emergency
design that was also constructed for the Missouri Pacific Lines (MP
63000-64199; I-GN 65000-65099; Mo-Ill 6200-6249; St.LB&M 65250-

65499)

and the Midland Valley (9000-9024), all AC&F Lot 2605, built 1943-

1944.

The only picture I have is from Stagner's Midland Valley book.

Have

plans of these cars ever been published (the AAR design, not
specifically the MV cars)? I would like to model several
of these cars in HO.

David Snook
Wichita, Kansas