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Question on Ann Arbor USRA SS boxcar brake

Charlie Duckworth
 

I’m building a Westerfield USRA SS boxcar and will decal for an Ann Arbor car.  The time period is post WW2. Did these have a vertical brake staff or Ajax style brake.  Thanks 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.
Re: Codes used on Rock Island waybills

james murrie
 

I don't have any waybills, but I do have about 400 telegrams from 1950-51 regarding the movement of MAIN cars that were interchanged between the SP and RI.

First, the Western Military Bureau in Chicago identified the point where cars were interchanged between SP and RI as Santa Rosa NM (always spelled out). Perhaps more technically accurate based on ownership of the rails, not usage agreements.

Second, In other telegrams from RI, SP, and also the WMB, the abbreviation used was TUCUM.

Hope this helps.

Jim Murrie
Re: Codes used on Rock Island waybills

John Barry
 

Steve, Tony,

Since the Rock and SP proper only had the single interchange point which happened to be at Tucumcari writing the routing as RI-SP was also unambigous, at least as long as the T&NO was about.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 






On Thursday, September 30, 2021, 03:00:24 PM EDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:




Steve Hile wrote:

I was asked, today, what code would be used for Tucumcari, New Mexico on waybills routing cars Rock Island to SP and vice versa through Tucumcari?  I might guess TUC, but that risks confusion with Tucson, perhaps.

Any advice or other learned information.

I have been told that agents typically used whatever abbreviation on waybills they thought was needed, so consistency was not observed. On the SP, the reweigh location code for Tucumcari was “T” but I would guess an agent would write something short like “TUC.” Remember this is a designation of a junction. Tucson is not a junction with the Rock Island, so I can’t see confusion by using that. Then that part of the waybill would read “RI-TUC-SP,” which I think is unambiguous.
I was also told that when an agent had to write a junction not familiar to him, he might well spell it out, whereas someone else who wrote that junction all the time would have an abbreviation. But abbreviations were all over the map, so to speak. The example I was given was Council Bluffs, abbreviated variously from “CO BL” to “CBL” to “CB."

Tony Thompson
Re: SEEKING ETCHED PARTS

Charlie Duckworth
 

Bill
I’m in the guilty camp; I didn’t use the geared parts.  I couldn’t figure out how they were applied in the instructions.  

Charlie 

On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 2:37 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:

The discussion on the geared vertical brake staff reminded me of project in my pipeline.  This is a Speedwitch Southern Pacific A-504 auto car.  A set of etchings for this geared assembly was included in the kit.  There was a great post on the Resin Xar site on building this model.  In this case the modeler did not use this arrangement.  Bill Welch has also guestioned this item.  

This suggests that there may be other modelers who did not employ this part. If anyone has one in their stash I would be happy to provide a good home for it.  At a price of course.

Bill Pardie 


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy 


--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.
SEEKING ETCHED PARTS

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


The discussion on the geared vertical brake staff reminded me of project in my pipeline.  This is a Speedwitch Southern Pacific A-504 auto car.  A set of etchings for this geared assembly was included in the kit.  There was a great post on the Resin Xar site on building this model.  In this case the modeler did not use this arrangement.  Bill Welch has also guestioned this item.  

This suggests that there may be other modelers who did not employ this part. If anyone has one in their stash I would be happy to provide a good home for it.  At a price of course.

Bill Pardie 


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy 
Re: ATSF BX-11 model

Gerald Henriksen
 

On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:49:30 -0400, you wrote:

Exactly. There never seemed to be much of a case for a plastic version
of the car,
Having observed crowd funding of model trains in the UK market for 5+
years I will note that Prototype Junction was correct in the blog post
- it is extremely hard to get the word out to prospective buyers.

The established methods (Kickstarter / IndieGoGo) really aren't
suitable for model railway crowdfunding given the time limits they
impose really are way too short for this hobby.

So I wouldn't judge the potential market for the BX-11 based on the
failure of the crowd funding attempt.
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Paul Doggett
 

Nelson 
Those are very useful I have saved them as I have a Speedwitch SP A50-4 to build.
Many thanks 
Paul Doggett.    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 1 Oct 2021, at 22:28, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I edited the B end photo and the Pullman drawing in Photoshop to see more detail on the geared brake system, and the edited photos are attached. The drawing is indeed the same as the photo except for the gear arrangement. You'll have to zoom in on the brake housing photo to compare it to the drawing. By lightening the photo, I think the brake chain is on a horizontal reel on the right side of the housing. It appears that when the brake wheel is turned, the horizontal rotation is converted into vertical rotation to rotate the chain reel through a set of gears applying mechanical advantage. I think the two 'horns' under the brake housing are mechanical stops, limiting the amount of turns in each direction. I'd like to hear from some of you mechanical engineers to see if this microbiologist is on the right track (pun intended).

Nelson Moyer
<IC Geared Hand Brake Photo.jpg>
<IC Geared Hand Brake Drawing.jpg>
Re: Kadee, Sam Clarke's retirement

Chet
 

Congratulations Sam.  I  always enjoyed talking to you at the various meets.
i hope that other Clark didn't scare you into an early retirement.
 
Chet French
Dixon, IL

Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

lrkdbn
 

There WERE geared handbrakes that employed a gearbox at the bottom of a vertical shaft/horizontal wheel arrangement.This was especially true in the late 20's and early 30's.Probably there people in the industry who felt more comfortable with the familiar horizontal wheel. I have heard it said it was favored by some because it gave the operator  better visibility.There was a trend to  increase the power of hand brakes at this time- the NYC Lines added an extra brake lever under many of their cars to increase the power of the hand brake.(NYC also stayed with the horizontal wheel longer than some other roads.-they were still using them on rebuilt cars ca.1936). Also,probably the reason the vertical wheel (Ajax.etc) eventually won out was because it could be operated with one hand leaving the other hand free to hang on to the ladder,etc.
Larry King
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Nelson Moyer
 

I edited the B end photo and the Pullman drawing in Photoshop to see more detail on the geared brake system, and the edited photos are attached. The drawing is indeed the same as the photo except for the gear arrangement. You'll have to zoom in on the brake housing photo to compare it to the drawing. By lightening the photo, I think the brake chain is on a horizontal reel on the right side of the housing. It appears that when the brake wheel is turned, the horizontal rotation is converted into vertical rotation to rotate the chain reel through a set of gears applying mechanical advantage. I think the two 'horns' under the brake housing are mechanical stops, limiting the amount of turns in each direction. I'd like to hear from some of you mechanical engineers to see if this microbiologist is on the right track (pun intended).

Nelson Moyer
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Jim Betz
 

Nelson,
  Those would be "beards" that you should be looking for in HO scale.  I strongly
suspect a voice translation caused this.
                                                                                                           - Jim
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Speedwitch included an etched version of the geared brake staff in their Southern Pacific A-50-4 auto kit.  I recall Bill Welch  questioned this item (or at least the assembly) of this when he did his car.  I don't remember if he actually used it.

I have this kit in my pipeline and considered initiating a post asking if anyone else who did this car did not use the etchings and offering to buy them.  Considered that done.  This would be for a Pacific Electric car.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...>
Date: 10/1/21 7:01 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Precision Scale also has some brake parts with gears that I’ve cut around to use for brakes that aren’t commercially available, but the smaller of the two that are visible in the posted photo is the one I haven’t figured out yet.

 

Based upon Ray’s information, it looks like the stemwinder may have been the predominant brake system by the late 1940s, so I may take the path of least resistance and go with a stemwinder like everybody else. I’m going to wait to see if Frank has any other information before making the final decision.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 11:49 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

 


Tichy makes a brake step with a small gear and with some trimming and sanding one could
isolate the gear from the rest although I don't know if it would be the correct size for this application.

Tim O'Connor

 
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 07:42 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

Since everyone is modeling the non-geared version, I wondered if they know something I didn’t, as either the cars weren’t built as drawn or something else. Without a 1940s B end photo, I guess it’s choose your version and nobody can argue with you either way. Non-geared is easier to build but less interesting, so I’ll go with geared unless somebody proves otherwise.

 

Nelson,

I see your "engineering drawing" is a Pullman drawing. If it came from IRM, it is a scan of the original. Since Pullman treated their drawing archives as a record of work done to fulfill contracts, if the cars would have been built to not match the drawing, it would have been so noted on the original. I would trust the drawing over other peoples models; looks like you know something they don't.

Dennis Storzek
Re: Answer from Frank

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks for referring the question to Frank. Looks like Ray’s almost B end photo is as good as we’re going to get. I’m pretty sure that 176399 doesn’t have a stemwinder, but then it’s per-1940s. I have reservations about a stemwinder conversion in the 1940s. We didn’t know about the Ajax conversions until Ray produced the photos. If the Ajax conversions coincided with conversion to AB brakes that makes sense. It appears to me that the safest approach would be to model Ajax hand brakes instead of either an unknown geared brake or a stemwinder. Ah, the mysteries of prototype modeling!

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 12:38 PM
To: Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...>
Subject: Answer

 

Nelson,

 

Frank just replied. Here’s his info:

 

Sorry can't help as there aren't any good photos of the B end

 

Frank 

 

 

Sorry it doesn’t help with the original query.

 

 

Eric
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks for the photos. I don’t trust the car diagrams because of the incorrect rendering of the ends. The photo of 176399 doesn’t look like a standard non-geared stemwinder to me. I see a Z-bracket extending from under the end sill with a bell shaped strap over whatever is under it. This is some type of gear housing. The photo resolution isn’t good enough for modeling purposes, and the housing in this photo doesn’t resemble the geared brake in the photo I posted. Stemwinder brake steps are usually mounted under the end sill, so they sit lower than the appliance in this photo. The brake staff stands off more from the end of the car than would be required for a stemwinder. I’m pretty sure this is some type of geared brake system. The photo of 176399 was taken prior to renumbering, so it doesn’t represent the 1940s. To me, it makes no sense to convert some cars to Ajax hand brakes and some to stemwinders, so I’m with Dennis on that point. If the stemwinder conversion assertion is based solely on 176399, that’s subject to doubt.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 9:32 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

 

We do have a builder's photo showing most of the B end of 176399. The "Jemco" wheel looks like a plain old stemwinder. The 164000-164999 series auto cars also got these hand brakes in 1927, so they mist have been an experimental buy on the IC at that date.

 

It looks like some of these cars did get Ajax power brake wheels during the 1941 rebuild and renumber. It ALSO looks like some of them were re-converted to stemwinders in 1945. So for postwar modelers its possible to have a variety of brake appliances.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 
Re: more glue questions

Eric Hansmann
 

When I work on the B-end details, I insert and glue the wire for the vertical brake staff into a Tichy base. I use canopy glue to tack the assembly into place so I can position the other details. Once the other parts are in place, it’s easy to break the canopy bond, clean up the parts, then attach with CA for permanence.

 

I did that recently on a pair of Speedwitch Pere Marquette single-sheathed automobile boxcars (88000 series) that I’m back dating to the as-built appearance.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Philip Dove
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 11:19 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] more glue questions

 

I find Aleenes tacky glue lacks mechanical strength. I have tacked things with it then used a PVA adhesive for the joint. 

 

On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, 23:31 ed_mines via groups.io, <ed_mines=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Does the original gorilla glue contain any solvent? How fast does it "dry" (cure, it's polyurethane). How about viscosity& smell? Does it make strands like the old Walther's goo did?

Anyone familiar with Aleene's tacky glue? How's the viscosity, dry time, bond strength & smell?
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Scott H. Haycock
 

Micro-Mark sells this box of watch gears that may be useful for a project like you were contemplating:
 
 

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantment

On 10/01/2021 11:01 AM Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:
 
 

Precision Scale also has some brake parts with gears that I’ve cut around to use for brakes that aren’t commercially available, but the smaller of the two that are visible in the posted photo is the one I haven’t figured out yet.

 

Based upon Ray’s information, it looks like the stemwinder may have been the predominant brake system by the late 1940s, so I may take the path of least resistance and go with a stemwinder like everybody else. I’m going to wait to see if Frank has any other information before making the final decision.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 11:49 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

 


Tichy makes a brake step with a small gear and with some trimming and sanding one could
isolate the gear from the rest although I don't know if it would be the correct size for this application.

Tim O'Connor

 
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Nelson Moyer
 

Precision Scale also has some brake parts with gears that I’ve cut around to use for brakes that aren’t commercially available, but the smaller of the two that are visible in the posted photo is the one I haven’t figured out yet.

 

Based upon Ray’s information, it looks like the stemwinder may have been the predominant brake system by the late 1940s, so I may take the path of least resistance and go with a stemwinder like everybody else. I’m going to wait to see if Frank has any other information before making the final decision.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 11:49 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

 


Tichy makes a brake step with a small gear and with some trimming and sanding one could
isolate the gear from the rest although I don't know if it would be the correct size for this application.

Tim O'Connor

 
Re: IC 2019 RPM Mini-Kit

Tim O'Connor
 


Tichy makes a brake step with a small gear and with some trimming and sanding one could
isolate the gear from the rest although I don't know if it would be the correct size for this application.

Tim O'Connor


On 10/1/2021 10:01 AM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

Thanks, Steve. Funny how I can read something several times as still miss little gems like ‘a beard take-up reel at the base of the vertical brake staff’. I hope Frank will provide the back story. Dennis is of the opinion that IC wouldn’t remove a geared brake appliance and replace it with a non-geared stemwinder, but maybe a part broke and replacements were no longer available, or maybe the manufacturer was out of business, etc. Then, can we trust the car diagram when they got the end wrong? It shows six Dreadnaught ribs with the wrong shape for a 3/5 end.

 

I ran the IC geared hand brake photo by Gene Green, and he provided the Jemco page I attached. He told me he had never seen that particular type of geared handbrake, and he didn’t know who made it, maybe IC shops. He did tell me that it wasn’t a Jemco, as there were differences.

 

Considering that this model has been in progress since February, I can wait a little longer for whatever additional information Frank may be able to provide. Meanwhile, I’ll figure out how to model the “beard take-up reel” based upon the end photo I attached. It could be a challenge finding gears that small in HO scale.

 

Nelson Moyer



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: more glue questions

Philip Dove
 

I find Aleenes tacky glue lacks mechanical strength. I have tacked things with it then used a PVA adhesive for the joint. 


On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, 23:31 ed_mines via groups.io, <ed_mines=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Does the original gorilla glue contain any solvent? How fast does it "dry" (cure, it's polyurethane). How about viscosity& smell? Does it make strands like the old Walther's goo did?

Anyone familiar with Aleene's tacky glue? How's the viscosity, dry time, bond strength & smell?
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