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ADMIN messages
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
It has been requested to me that members not use the term "ADMIN" in the subject line even when replying to an ADMIN message. I think thats a good idea because ADMIN messages should be read by the members and I don't think we should subject the members to more ADMIN messages than necessary. Feel free, however, to ask about a subject in the ADMIN subject line. Hopefully ADMIN messages will be few in number and should really only be used to keep the group functioning in as efficient manner as possible. The less we see of the judge the better...IMO.
Mike Brock STMFC Owner
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Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Charlie Vlk writes:
"I envision doing the database prior to dealing with the actual drift cards, means of reproducing them, etc... and as an ongoing work. This database will, incidently, provide some framework of drawings and other documents in existence as a byproduct. While it will, because of the thrust of the project, be limited to General Arrangement and Lettering & Painting drawings and specifications that normally contain color information, it would be something." OK...I'm curious. Are you saying that you suggest that the data base you are going to build will contain only "Arrangement and Lettering & Painting drawings and specifications that normally contain color information"? Exactly what does that mean? I'm puzzled. I mean, we have that already for many RRs...certainly UP. Mike Brock
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Re: Texaco Tank Car Fleet in 1950
Cyril Durrenberger
The following are from what I remember from builders photos, but is being written from our summer house and I do not have my Texaco file here.
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In about 1929 The Texas Company began using the name "Texaco" on their tank cars instead of "The Texas Company". It appears that up until that time almost all of their tank cars were painted black, but there may have been some that were painted white (I recal a photo of a white tank car).. They also had some box cars that were painted white. In 1929 they began using the scheme with silver on the upper part of the tank with large black letters spelling out "Texaco". These were used for gasoline, or that is what their magazine indicated when they discussed their new paint and lettering scheme. Black cars were still used for other products. It is not clear how soon they repainted their cars in the new paint and lettering scheme. Cyril Durrenberger "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> wrote: George, Sorry. I hit the wrong key. I have nothing solid to offer you, except that the silver Texaco cars date from the 1930s and were all black well before the 1950s. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff George Hollwedel wrote:
Garth, that wasn't much help...
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Northern Pacific Boxcar Red dba Corvette Red dba Chocolate Syrup Brown
gary laakso
Per a research piece by Bill McKown of W&R fame, Northern Pacific box car red is the same red used on Corvettes and in the DuPont catalogue in 1993 when he wrote an article for the NPRHS, its was Lucite C8120L. It is an interesting color that faded or "morphed" to a chocolate syrup brown in some paint batches and that was the color Challenger Imports used on the NP single sheathed war emergency boxcar. There are pictures of NP trains with boxcars some of which are the corvette red and others in the syrup brown and the boxcars are from the same era. I just weather to suit, knowing the colors did not stay nearly consistent on NP.
Great Northern colors did not "morph" to chocolate! Well, at least not in the pictures that i have seen. I like Richard Henderickson's weathering ideas more all the time! gary laakso south of Mike Brock vasa0vasa@...
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Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars
Charlie Vlk
Ed-
Thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply. Your comments indicate, to me, the importance of including the application data and allowing for reported and observed variances in the color over time. A field for this with a suffix to the "official" paint number (if any) should be a part of the database to allow for this. Not all fields for every entry will be able to be populated.... your horror example (for us) of a lot of cars to be painted to match a drift card sample without any brand, number, name of the paint is an example. I envision doing the database prior to dealing with the actual drift cards, means of reproducing them, etc... and as an ongoing work. This database will, incidently, provide some framework of drawings and other documents in existence as a byproduct. While it will, because of the thrust of the project, be limited to General Arrangement and Lettering & Painting drawings and specifications that normally contain color information, it would be something. Charlie Vlk Charlie, For the period 1931-1952, the AC&F bills of materials have numerous paint samples that were affixed to the back covers of these documents. As many people know, Pat Wider, Ray Long and I researched these BOMs and received permission to cut a small sliver of the paint sample to keep. I have a collection of these paint samples. Anyone can see the samples by visiting the St. Louis Mercantile Library (Barriger National Railroad Library) and go through the BOMs. From the standpoint of freight car colors used in this period, in many cases the BOMs specify a generic name of a paint color without the mention of a brand of paint. Others specify the brand of paint plus a name of the paint color (i.e., DuPont Tuffcoat Brown). In very few cases are there paint numbers that were specified. Not all orders BOMs had paint samples (absolutely none on tank cars), so there are many examples where there are no samples available for various road names or private owners. In other cases there are perhaps up to a dozen paint samples used on various cars for a given railroad. In addition to the AC&F material, I have a collection of Pullman BOMs that apply, for the most part, to cars built at Bessemer, Alabama from 1929 to 1947. Included in this collection are a relatively small number of BOMs of cars built at Pullman's Butler, Pa. plant. These documents have no color samples, but they tend to specify the paint brand/paint name in the same way that the AC&F BOMs specify them. Some have paint numbers, but most do not. The AC&F paint samples clearly show that paint colors changed over time even though the name of the paint may have remained the same. For example, Santa Fe Mineral Brown changed significantly from the samples of the late 1930s/early 1940s to those from the late 1940s. Many of the paint brands and color names have already been published in RP CYC articles and/or my articles in Railmodel Journal. A main point that I want to emphasize is that each AC&F paint sample represents the color applied to one order of cars. The same color may have been used on other lot numbers that were produced, but in many cases the colors changed from one order to another even for the same railroad. Sometimes multiple brands of paint were used for the cars built in one lot number. In some cases there are multiple paint samples in the BOM and sometimes there's only one sample. It can get pretty complicated. but I am willing to be a participant in a study to help define the colors to the extent that they can be defined. The challenge is to come up with some way to match these paint samples to some type of standard that's available for anyone to use. Of course, these paint samples document selected cars when they were brand new. Samples for repainted cars typically done at the railroad shops will have to some from other sources. Regards, Ed Hawkins
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Re: Texaco Tank Car Fleet in 1950
That helps me, I hope it helps MATT as well.
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Prototype N Scale Models (TM) by George Hollwedel 310 Loma Verde St Buda, TX 78610-9785 512-796-6883 www.micro-trains.com/hollwedel.php
--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...> wrote:
From: Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
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Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars
Charlie Vlk
A verrrry red-faced Charlie Vlk admits that he did mean Mr. Tom Madden, Dean of All Things Pullman.....
The process of objectivity you describe hits the nail on the head...... we can wax poetic about how the human eye processes different wavelengths of light, etc... but if we don't know what the size and nature of the subject we're dealing with it is just a waste of electrons..... I'd like to work on a Color Project, but sure would like a few people that have more knowledge of setting up databases and are more internet savvy than I.... also that have some time to devote to data entry, etc.. Since the source documents (unlike the Pullman records which are in a few locations) are scattered in files across the world, I think the real population of the database (i.e., CB&Q E7 EMD Styling Drawing Dated 4/48, Issue C with such and such colors referenced) would be a Wikopedia type effort. Charlie Vlk Charlie Vlk wrote: > ... what we really [need] to get started is a > database of the caliber of Mr. Maddox's Pullman Project. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you meant me, Charlie. But if Tom Maddox (QB: UCLA, Denver, Pittsburgh) has been working up a Pullman database, please point me to it. :-) There is almost no subjectivity in the Pullman database - it contains facts directly transcribed from original Pullman records. I had to do some interpretation (is that written number a "3" or a "5"?) and make occasional inferences (the original truck data is missing for this car, but every other car in that lot was delivered with 2410A trucks, ergo...), but there wasn't a lot of opportunity to make subjective judgements. Color interpretation is going to be chock full of subjective judgements, for reasons that have been discussed at excruciating length here on the STMFC. Having said that, databases and other foundation documents seldom originate in committees. They happen because someone (and it's almost always one) decides to do it. And they keep at it until others recognize the value of the undertaking and decide to contribute to it. But it's that one person creating the framework that makes it all happen. You start with curiosity, move up to "interest", then "passion", and next thing you know you've committed all your hobby time, energy and resources to it. You do need to stop before "obsession", because that tends to scare people off! Tom Madden
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Re: Texaco Tank Car Fleet in 1950
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
George,
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Sorry. I hit the wrong key. I have nothing solid to offer you, except that the silver Texaco cars date from the 1930s and were all black well before the 1950s. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff George Hollwedel wrote:
Garth, that wasn't much help...
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Re: Texaco Tank Car Fleet in 1950
Garth, that wasn't much help...
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Prototype N Scale Models (TM) by George Hollwedel 310 Loma Verde St Buda, TX 78610-9785 512-796-6883 www.micro-trains.com/hollwedel.php
--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...> wrote:
From: Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
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Re: Texaco Tank Car Fleet in 1950
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
matthewjstrickland wrote:
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Hi guys,
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Texaco Tank Car Fleet in 1950
matt
Hi guys,
Can anyone tell me what period Texaco used the black tank cars with White Thick Block lettering of "TEXACO"? From when to when? Were these tanks cars 8000 or 10,000 gallon? Also if you were putting together a fleet of tank cars for Texaco in 1950 which tank cars were most likely to be seen? Plain GATX? Silver TEXACO? Still some labelled THE TEXAS COMPANY or just simply labelled TCX? And what size? Thanks for your help in advance MATT
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Re: J & L Steel and Koppers Coal Car Tank Cars
Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Hi Larry and list members,
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Looking at the P&LE HS web site at http://www.plerrhs.org/store/BookShelf.pdf It appears to me that maybe there might be a charge for S&H, but you didn't mention such in your post. I'd like to order one of these. Larry - can you clarify if we need to include a separate S&H charge? Thanks - Claus Schlund
-----Original Message-----
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Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Hi, Al,
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You ask: "As a side question - is there still a group that deals specifically with early-1800s thru mid-1900s steam era freight cars, i.e. the prototypes only and not models? . . . . documenting early paint colors, builder's records, etc." To be honest...I don't know. I run the STMFC and help with the PCL as a moderator. I also run a group dealing with trade marks...LICEN...but that's all. Mike Al Kresse
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From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> Dave Nelson writes: "I highlighted a word above -- model -- to point out what I regard as an unfortunate bias here, one that usually pops out in spades whenever the subject is color: that this list is only about **models** of steam era freight cars. IIRC, the scope is about Steam Era Freight Cars (note the absence of any other qualifiers)." Not so, Dave. From the group's rules: "The objectives include the sharing of information about North American, standard gauge railroad freight cars including their operation, distribution and the various techniques of building models of them. Discussions about the cargos of freight cars are permitted but only as they are directly associated with a freight car. Emphasis is to be placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of producing models of them with as great a degree of accuracy as possible." Dave asks: "Fair enough -- for modeling. Can I get a clarification from our hosts on whether scale models are or are not a qualifier to what is or is not proper here, with specific reference to the topic of color?" Obviously, if one is going to build a model of a real frt car, one needs to know a great deal about the real frt car...the more the better...including its [ gasp ] color impression [ don't overlook the term "impression". ]. Certainly discussions about frt cars not including references to models are within scope but note the sentence..."Emphasis is to be placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of producing models of them with as great a degree of accuracy as possible." IOW, while discussions about the paint consist of a real frt car would not be out of scope, it would not be a primary goal of the STMFC...except as an avenue to developing a model of the real car. Again, such discussions regarding the paints applied to real frt cars ARE within the scope of the STMFC...just as would other discussions about the physical features of a real frt car. As an aside, the STMFC is historically associated with the rise of Railroad Prototype Modeler [ RPM ] activities including the development of RPM meets...Naperville, Cocoa Beach, North East Prototype Modeling Meet, John Golden's St. Louis meet to name a few. In general, presentations might include information about a prototype or about the modeling of it or both. At least at Cocoa Beach the goal is to provide information about a prototype and how to model it...very similar to the STMFC [ surprise! ]. However, never is it required to provide both in the same presentation at Cocoa Beach or message in the STMFC. Mike Brock STMFC Owner Fair enough -- for modeling. Can I get a clarification from our hosts on whether scale models are or are not a qualifier to what is or is not proper here, with specific reference to the topic of color? Dave Nelson
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Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars
water.kresse@...
Mike,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
As a side question - is there still a group that deals specifically with early-1800s thru mid-1900s steam era freight cars, i.e. the prototypes only and not models? . . . . documenting early paint colors, builder's records, etc. Al Kresse
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From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> Dave Nelson writes: "I highlighted a word above -- model -- to point out what I regard as an unfortunate bias here, one that usually pops out in spades whenever the subject is color: that this list is only about **models** of steam era freight cars. IIRC, the scope is about Steam Era Freight Cars (note the absence of any other qualifiers)." Not so, Dave. From the group's rules: "The objectives include the sharing of information about North American, standard gauge railroad freight cars including their operation, distribution and the various techniques of building models of them. Discussions about the cargos of freight cars are permitted but only as they are directly associated with a freight car. Emphasis is to be placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of producing models of them with as great a degree of accuracy as possible." Dave asks: "Fair enough -- for modeling. Can I get a clarification from our hosts on whether scale models are or are not a qualifier to what is or is not proper here, with specific reference to the topic of color?" Obviously, if one is going to build a model of a real frt car, one needs to know a great deal about the real frt car...the more the better...including its [ gasp ] color impression [ don't overlook the term "impression". ]. Certainly discussions about frt cars not including references to models are within scope but note the sentence..."Emphasis is to be placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of producing models of them with as great a degree of accuracy as possible." IOW, while discussions about the paint consist of a real frt car would not be out of scope, it would not be a primary goal of the STMFC...except as an avenue to developing a model of the real car. Again, such discussions regarding the paints applied to real frt cars ARE within the scope of the STMFC...just as would other discussions about the physical features of a real frt car. As an aside, the STMFC is historically associated with the rise of Railroad Prototype Modeler [ RPM ] activities including the development of RPM meets...Naperville, Cocoa Beach, North East Prototype Modeling Meet, John Golden's St. Louis meet to name a few. In general, presentations might include information about a prototype or about the modeling of it or both. At least at Cocoa Beach the goal is to provide information about a prototype and how to model it...very similar to the STMFC [ surprise! ]. However, never is it required to provide both in the same presentation at Cocoa Beach or message in the STMFC. Mike Brock STMFC Owner Fair enough -- for modeling. Can I get a clarification from our hosts on whether scale models are or are not a qualifier to what is or is not proper here, with specific reference to the topic of color? Dave Nelson
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Re: NE prototype modelers meet
Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
Folks;
I have spent a lot of time trying to figure this out because of the need to take pics for TKM and other, under a variety of light sources. Fluorescents (the light of choice in those venues) vary tremendously, and cast a light that can vary from ghoulish purple green to cool grey to vaguely warm orange, depending on what Kelvin they generate. The ones I have run across run anywhere from 4000 to over 6000 Kelvin. This runs from marginally warm (even then, your camera may not interpret as such) to extremely cold. By contrast, most Tungsten lighting is about 3200 Kelvin, which is pretty warm. That is what most pros use for studio lighting. Since your eye automatically adjusts to various lighting to create the same general appearance under any condition, most people do not notice how cool or warm the lighting is, with the exception of Fluorsecent-lit venues/subjects. Most people notice these as cool. Your camera may turn subjects lit by them to a sickly green, when you see them as just fine. For folks that have layouts under high Kelvin fluorescents, models painted under sunlight may appear cool. The solution some have suggested is to switch to "warm" fluorescents, so your models look more "real". This seems to be a matter of personal subjectivity, as some seem to regard their lighting as fine, and others hate the same lighting. The use of fluorescents and pro lighting causes many digital cameras, including my own, to go wacky. The Program mode on some cameras seems more able to combat this than others, so your camera may do just fine (like appears to be Jerry's case). Other cameras have an option to have the camera judge the light source and adjust to a middle value (like maybe 3500K) automatically. There are also folks that put media over their fluorescents to adjust the color temperature. This usually involves colored mylar sheets. I find that I have to just take the pictures under whatever lighting is available in a Model Room (hideous fluorescent green), supplemented by the more even, and less contrasting Tungsten pro lights, and adjust it accordingly (usually warming it up and making it a bit for dramatic), on my computer, for posting in TKM. PhotoShop is a favorite of many pros. BTW, these new fluorescents that take the place of your old incandescents have very cool color. I had to heavily warm some digitals that I took under that light recently. My Brunswick Green F-7 actually looked "morning after" green. Elden Gatwood I ran out of time to take pics at Cocoa Beach this year but from thelooks of others' pics I've seeen, lighting does not appear to be an issue. Of course digital cameras are not as critical of the light source as film. Jerry Glow --- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@...> wrote: but right under the lighting in the display room? I'm asking because Iif my "Metallic" (SP "Boxcar Red") B-50-? would look purple (for"feddersenmark" <feddersenmark@> wrote: tired perof leaning over and squinting in dim light to view the models. 10 the10'lenght) to create the leg extensions. Contrary to your earlier themodels. I observed many groups standing around tables discussing theintracacies of the offerings. An additional benefit of raising totable height is that it gets the models slightly closer to the Owens" <daowens@> wrote:have all of the tables raised this year. Mark Feddersen am notnot sure if the manufaturers would appreciate the difference or down,but the modelers sure did. weshootPhiladelphia protothe breeze, etc. Raising the tables would hamper that. outdid for modeldisplays. We did not for manufacturers or dealers. It worked quite well.No complaints that I'm aware of.
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Correction to SR flat car web link
Jim King
Bob Harpe noted correctly that my page link was missing the "l" in the
suffix. To link directly to the page to view the S scale Southern Ry. 41'6" flat car pilot model, related history and pricing, go here: http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com/sscalesou42'flat.html Let's try this again! Jim King Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc. www.smokymountainmodelworks.com
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Re: J & L Steel and Koppers Coal Car Tank Cars
Larry Kline
Jamie Toman wrote:
Does anyone know were I could find out about J & L Steel and Koppers Coal Car Tank Cars? I have one good pic of a J & L one, need some more photos or info on them. I know 3RD Rail makes them in brass in O- Scale. Did they have an "A" or "B" end markings or which end was it? I know they had handbrakes on both ends. The latest issue of the P&LE RR Historical Society magazine *The Little Giant* includes an article with three 1958 photos of J&L coal tar tankcar 1022 which was part of a derailment in 1958, color photo of an indentified J&L coal tar tankcar, and the builder's photo that was in the cyclopedias. These cars were painted black in the 1950s. There are drawings for these cars in the April 1956 Model Railroader. The magazine, Vol. 3 No. 3 is available from the Society store. Send request for TLG V3 N3 and a check for $6.95 to: P&LERRHS PO Box 15512 Pittsburgh, PA 15244 Larry Kline Pittsburgh, PA
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Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Dave Nelson writes:
"May I suggest you keep the above handy for whenever the topic of color comes up again." I know the rules by heart. I will say, however, that even within scope threads can be terminated if they produce "diminishing returns". Mike Brock STMFC Owner
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Re: NE prototype modelers meet
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Walter Clark writes:
"With all the discussion(s) about color I'm going to ask a very subjective question. When you take a model to Naperville or Cocoa Beach or ? has anyone had a problem with the lighting "shifting" the color? As in, what looked "right" at home wound up being anything but right under the lighting in the display room? I'm asking because I might be able to get to both Naperville and Cocoa Beach this winter and before I pack up my pride and joy to show off I'd like to know if my "Metallic" (SP "Boxcar Red") B-50-? would look purple (for instance) under the lighting in the display room." I don't know. I'm color blind. Mike Brock <G>
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Re: Etched Brass instead of Scribed Siding
On Jun 6, 2008, at 6:56 AM, jerryglow2 wrote:
And it's even more trouble to paint to look like wood than plastic. IJerry, folks, Here is what I did for my brass F22 flats (Crown Custom, nee Railworks). The decks were already painted PRR FCC, so I painted individual boards with Poly Scale mud, roof brown and RR tie brown (the later two looked identical to me). I painted 1 or 2 boards in each color, randomly shifting the pattern. I did NOT worry too much about neatness. The results were really stark, so I painted the entire deck with several washes of RR Tie Brown to blend the colors, and a final wash of grimy black to pop the details... It looks pretty good, for a brass deck, but I'll have to say.......................... (since I'm bored of the paint discussion and we haven't had the wood deck discussion in, well, it seems like years) Nothing looks more like a wood deck than wood! (There, that should stir the pot <VBG>) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2 "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0
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