Date   

Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Larry Grubb <larry450sl@...>
 

Is that robe black or DGLE? I can't tell in this light....
Larry Grubb

Mike Brock <brockm@...> wrote:
First, before donning my judge's robes,

John Stokes says:

"I think Steve may be on to something. I agree with Tony and others that
there needs to be a base line and keep the research and historical
information alive and available as reference points, and work on some
reasonable system to help modelers who want to be as prototypically correct
as possible, that is part of their legitimate fun in the hobby, while others
can use it it be reasonably and comfortably "close to."

I think you miss the point. "Others" don't believe that real paint will
provide a "prototypically correct" color on a model [ most often 87 times
smaller ] of a frt car viewed in artificial light. Being "reasonably and
comfortably" "close to" has nothing to do with it at all. "Others" [
including me ] believe "close to" is as accurate as one can get.

John adds:

"No one is trying to force anyone else to be a stickler for the correct BCR
or even Reefer Yellow on their personal freight cars, but no one should
denigrate the efforts of others to strive for accuracy and the infinite
variations that was and is prototype paint jobs on steam era freight cars."

Now...deonning my judge's robes:

The philosophy of the STMFC is that it is a forum which will operate
somewhat like a debate. If a member wishes to praise a product...or
criticize it...the member is free to do it...free from criticism from
others. By the same token, members may make comments about various aspects
of model frt cars...including color...free from criticism from other
members. If such comments appear to denigrate...or praise... a position
taken by another member as long as the member is not denigrated...so be it.
The argument either in support or to the contrary will stand on its own
merit.

IOW, members are certainly free to believe that real RR paints can deliver
accurate colors on real frt cars viewed in real sunlight AND also deliver
accurate colors on model frt cars viewed under various forms of artificial
light. Members are also free to believe that such paints are a good, perhaps
the best, starting point to develop a modified paint that could be used to
provide an accurate impression by a model frt car viewed under artificial
light. Other members are just as free to reject most notions.

Mike Brock
STMFC Judge


ADMIN: Re: Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

First, before donning my judge's robes,

John Stokes says:

"I think Steve may be on to something. I agree with Tony and others that there needs to be a base line and keep the research and historical information alive and available as reference points, and work on some reasonable system to help modelers who want to be as prototypically correct as possible, that is part of their legitimate fun in the hobby, while others can use it it be reasonably and comfortably "close to."

I think you miss the point. "Others" don't believe that real paint will provide a "prototypically correct" color on a model [ most often 87 times smaller ] of a frt car viewed in artificial light. Being "reasonably and comfortably" "close to" has nothing to do with it at all. "Others" [ including me ] believe "close to" is as accurate as one can get.

John adds:

"No one is trying to force anyone else to be a stickler for the correct BCR or even Reefer Yellow on their personal freight cars, but no one should denigrate the efforts of others to strive for accuracy and the infinite variations that was and is prototype paint jobs on steam era freight cars."

Now...deonning my judge's robes:

The philosophy of the STMFC is that it is a forum which will operate somewhat like a debate. If a member wishes to praise a product...or criticize it...the member is free to do it...free from criticism from others. By the same token, members may make comments about various aspects of model frt cars...including color...free from criticism from other members. If such comments appear to denigrate...or praise... a position taken by another member as long as the member is not denigrated...so be it. The argument either in support or to the contrary will stand on its own merit.

IOW, members are certainly free to believe that real RR paints can deliver accurate colors on real frt cars viewed in real sunlight AND also deliver accurate colors on model frt cars viewed under various forms of artificial light. Members are also free to believe that such paints are a good, perhaps the best, starting point to develop a modified paint that could be used to provide an accurate impression by a model frt car viewed under artificial light. Other members are just as free to reject most notions.

Mike Brock
STMFC Judge


Re: Photos of NP and other box car accident

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Folks;



I have posted some photos in a file on the STMFC site entitled "PRR
accident", for your enjoyment. They are of a NP box car and what appears to
be an ex-DS box car, whose origins you can tell me. I found these in the
PRRT&HS archives, documenting what appears to be a fire in the latter box car
(and subsequent damage claims arising?), that caused destruction of both
cars' loads, the latter box car, and extensive damage to the NP box car. The
mystery is what might have been in each car that caused the damage. The DS
box might have been loaded with hot coke, as there are photos of other cars
that look this cooked, but what caused the swelling of the NP box car the way
is appears in one photo? Have you seen anything like this? Any idea from
what you see as to the year?



Elden Gatwood

__


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jun 5, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:

There are some partial DuPont and other color lists on the web; what
we really to get started is a
database of the caliber of Mr. Maddox's Pullman Project.
I would hope that we could get some discussion going on the above
list that would arrive at the fields
necessary to get the project going.
After the framework is established those who wish to help could go
through their files and post
the information relating to color that they have..... which would
include
detailed application data (the railroad drawing information as well
as the paint numbers).
There are source paint company references that could be added to the
data base (official numbers, names, application
information) as well as actual drift cards....but having the data
base before getting into the sticky problems of how
to reproduce the colors seems to me a logical first necessary step.
Charlie,
For the period 1931-1952, the AC&F bills of materials have numerous
paint samples that were affixed to the back covers of these documents.
As many people know, Pat Wider, Ray Long and I researched these BOMs
and received permission to cut a small sliver of the paint sample to
keep. I have a collection of these paint samples. Anyone can see the
samples by visiting the St. Louis Mercantile Library (Barriger National
Railroad Library) and go through the BOMs.

From the standpoint of freight car colors used in this period, in many
cases the BOMs specify a generic name of a paint color without the
mention of a brand of paint. Others specify the brand of paint plus a
name of the paint color (i.e., DuPont Tuffcoat Brown). In very few
cases are there paint numbers that were specified. Not all orders BOMs
had paint samples (absolutely none on tank cars), so there are many
examples where there are no samples available for various road names or
private owners. In other cases there are perhaps up to a dozen paint
samples used on various cars for a given railroad.

In addition to the AC&F material, I have a collection of Pullman BOMs
that apply, for the most part, to cars built at Bessemer, Alabama from
1929 to 1947. Included in this collection are a relatively small number
of BOMs of cars built at Pullman's Butler, Pa. plant. These documents
have no color samples, but they tend to specify the paint brand/paint
name in the same way that the AC&F BOMs specify them. Some have paint
numbers, but most do not.

The AC&F paint samples clearly show that paint colors changed over time
even though the name of the paint may have remained the same. For
example, Santa Fe Mineral Brown changed significantly from the samples
of the late 1930s/early 1940s to those from the late 1940s.

Many of the paint brands and color names have already been published in
RP CYC articles and/or my articles in Railmodel Journal. A main point
that I want to emphasize is that each AC&F paint sample represents the
color applied to one order of cars. The same color may have been used
on other lot numbers that were produced, but in many cases the colors
changed from one order to another even for the same railroad. Sometimes
multiple brands of paint were used for the cars built in one lot
number. In some cases there are multiple paint samples in the BOM and
sometimes there's only one sample. It can get pretty complicated. but I
am willing to be a participant in a study to help define the colors to
the extent that they can be defined. The challenge is to come up with
some way to match these paint samples to some type of standard that's
available for anyone to use.

Of course, these paint samples document selected cars when they were
brand new. Samples for repainted cars typically done at the railroad
shops will have to some from other sources.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Charlie Vlk
 

All-
There is already such a group; it just hasn't gotten off the ground.
We need people that are interessted enough in the issues to contribute to actually working on the problem....

RRColorStds@...

There are some partial DuPont and other color lists on the web; what we really to get started is a
database of the caliber of Mr. Maddox's Pullman Project.
I would hope that we could get some discussion going on the above list that would arrive at the fields
necessary to get the project going.
After the framework is established those who wish to help could go through their files and post
the information relating to color that they have..... which would include
detailed application data (the railroad drawing information as well as the paint numbers).
There are source paint company references that could be added to the data base (official numbers, names, application
information) as well as actual drift cards....but having the data base before getting into the sticky problems of how
to reproduce the colors seems to me a logical first necessary step.

Charlie Vlk

----- Original Message -----
From: John Stokes
To: stmfc@...
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:30 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars


I think Steve may be on to something. I agree with Tony and others that there needs to be a base line and keep the research and historical information alive and available as reference points, and work on some reasonable system to help modelers who want to be as prototypically correct as possible, that is part of their legitimate fun in the hobby, while others can use it it be reasonably and comfortably "close to." No one is trying to force anyone else to be a stickler for the correct BCR or even Reefer Yellow on their personal freight cars, but no one should denigrate the efforts of others to strive for accuracy and the infinite variations that was and is prototype paint jobs on steam era freight cars. Enthusiasts in other similar hobbies seem to do the color thing reasonably well, so why should model railroaders be slackers?
There does seem to be a need for a discussion group on freight car color, and I think more collaboration instead of carping and blaming. Use what NMRA and other sources have to offer, augment and explore, and keep the hobby alive and progressive.

Just my thoughts after reading all these varied rants and raves and thought provoking pieces.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA

To: STMFC@...: stevelucas3@...: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:07:04 +0000Subject: [STMFC] Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

My, oh my,I fear that we are going to be mired in a never-ending discussion about suitable freight car colours. The likes of which would put the trials of Bill Murray's character in the movie "Groundhog Day" to shame. Some modellers are passionate about exact colours, some might be quite happy to use NAPA or Pep Boys' primer for FC red. There really ought to be another group where this issue can be kicked around.I post this with some trepidation....Steve Lucas.


Re: Etched Brass instead of Scribed Siding

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Norm--

I believe that Precision Scale makes brass sheet with very nice board
detail etched into it. This may save you a lot of trouble.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Norm" <ndrez@...> wrote:

I know that many manufacturers have produced models of wood-era
railroad car which had wood siding, generally edge-to-edge boards
with no appreciable gap, in etched brass because that was the
chosen medium for the product. Right now I have to produce a
decking for a model ship of the 1920's that had a deck that was
similarly constructed. Commercial scribed siding is the "lazy"
way but results in a model in which the gaps between the boards is
vastly larger than scale. Most dedicated ship modelers will do
the same thing that model railroaders and structure modelers do
which is to glue up stripwood edge to edge to produce realistic
siding or decking.

I happen to have on hand in my workshop an appreciable quantity of
unetched brass-covered PC boards and I've made PC circuit
boards before using various techniques. Producing etched (stand-
alone) brass is also done with very similar techniques and isn't
out of my range.

The question I'm facing is this: My hands are partially disabled
with bilateral nerve damage so actually producing a full deck's
worth of plank-by-plank sheeting is a considerable challenge. But
I want the best possible model for display.

SO ... Has anyone actually done -- or seen done -- the use of
etched brass (or PC board, same thing) which truly reproduces the
appearance of plank-by-plank sheeting (decking)? Given modern
printing methods with typical resolution of ~1K ppi, getting lines
which are 2 mils wide (.002") is practical. For reference, since
I'm working in 87:1 / 1/8" scale, this represents a gap of 1/6"
which would be a great improvement over commercial scribed siding
with gaps on the order of 1/64" representing over 1" spacing.

Norm Dresner


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

al_brown03
 

What does this group want: the prototype colors, as painted in
different shops or weathered; or the appropriate model colors?

Al Kresse

I say the following at the risk of presumption, since my own models are
sprayed from cans then weathered to taste. But here goes:

Since (1) the point of our endeavor is to reproduce prototype colors on
models, and (2) weathering makes every car different, I'd think the
database would most usefully describe as-painted (new, unweathered)
colors, for both prototype and models. Since similarly-named paints
(both prototype and model) sometimes undergo formula changes, I would
reference all colors to some "universal" scale, ideally one that isn't
observer-dependent. Is any of the standard color scales
spectroscopically-based? If so, it might be worth trying.

Ducking for cover,

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Stokes John
 

I think Steve may be on to something. I agree with Tony and others that there needs to be a base line and keep the research and historical information alive and available as reference points, and work on some reasonable system to help modelers who want to be as prototypically correct as possible, that is part of their legitimate fun in the hobby, while others can use it it be reasonably and comfortably "close to." No one is trying to force anyone else to be a stickler for the correct BCR or even Reefer Yellow on their personal freight cars, but no one should denigrate the efforts of others to strive for accuracy and the infinite variations that was and is prototype paint jobs on steam era freight cars. Enthusiasts in other similar hobbies seem to do the color thing reasonably well, so why should model railroaders be slackers?
There does seem to be a need for a discussion group on freight car color, and I think more collaboration instead of carping and blaming. Use what NMRA and other sources have to offer, augment and explore, and keep the hobby alive and progressive.

Just my thoughts after reading all these varied rants and raves and thought provoking pieces.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA


To: STMFC@...: stevelucas3@...: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:07:04 +0000Subject: [STMFC] Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars




My, oh my,I fear that we are going to be mired in a never-ending discussion about suitable freight car colours. The likes of which would put the trials of Bill Murray's character in the movie "Groundhog Day" to shame. Some modellers are passionate about exact colours, some might be quite happy to use NAPA or Pep Boys' primer for FC red. There really ought to be another group where this issue can be kicked around.I post this with some trepidation....Steve Lucas.


Model Prototype Database

Carl J. Marsico <Carlmarsico@...>
 

Here's a useful link in this regard:

http://www.portup.com/~willobee/36_40boxcars.html

CJM


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

My, oh my,

I fear that we are going to be mired in a never-ending discussion about
suitable freight car colours. The likes of which would put the trials
of Bill Murray's character in the movie "Groundhog Day" to shame. Some
modellers are passionate about exact colours, some might be quite happy
to use NAPA or Pep Boys' primer for FC red.

There really ought to be another group where this issue can be kicked
around.

I post this with some trepidation....

Steve Lucas.


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

water.kresse@...
 

Folks,

I say again, this is why a historical society should stay out of this type of business. There is always someone who has to add an exception, or complaint, about their published color results. The C&O HS has reference paint chips floating around at their Archives and with members who have done the research. Those chips are just a reference at a certain time, i.e. Freightr Car Brown is really C&O 1963 Freight Car Brown, or whatever year is on the back of the chip, no matter how red it really is. Folks got upset when I quoted a C&O/Chessie/CSX paint supplier person as saying the 1960s Freight Car Black was really todays's Home Depot Egg Shell Black.

We have turn of the 19-to-20th century freight car paint spec's but so far nobody has ID'd the modern pigment equivalents from Sherwin Williams. The specification was more concerned about coverage and adherance than verifying the color correctness.

What does this group want: the prototype colors, as painted in different shops or weathered; or the appropriate model colors?

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Manfred Lorenz" <germanfred55@...>
This technique of scaling down a color by lightening was actually
covered in some other forum "RPM". It was contested whether it is
the "right" approach. Knowing nothing about this subject I presume
that
- outdoors and indoors require different adjustments for color
- indoor conditions are not uniform regarding the type of lighting
and the ambient light reflections

Under standardized ambient conditions I can imagine how a color could
be adjusted. But taking all the variants into account will need
probably some more work.

I think that the effect that makes experience of a color different in
nature and on models is the size of the colored area appearing in the
field of view. If one is standing next to Brunswick green loco all
the viewable area is b/g. The eyes adjust to the available light that
is reflected from the loco by opening up the lens. No sky and such
interfere. Looking at the model the area covered with the paint is
only part of what the eye sees. Much likely there are lighter areas
that force the eye to stop down it's lens. Like a camera that is not
able to do justice to all the light and dark areas at the same time
using one exposure time. So the color looks different, mostly too
dark. The same effect will happen when outside and stepping back from
said loco. It will become a small dark spot which also appears too
dark.

Manfred

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:

One other interesting tidbit where we in the model railroading
community have barely scratched the surface is the interpretation
and
integration of scale effect into our colors and painting.
Monogram
(not the kit company) published many military books, one of which
was
the ultimate on Luftwaffe painting, the Official Monogram Painting
Guide to German Aircraft, 1935-1945. In the book, they touch on
the
notion of scale via intensity and chroma and include chips to
illustrate what three common colors actually look like and then
what
they should approximate in 1/32 and 1/72 scales. The 1/72 is
significantly lighter than the actual color. Consider that the
majority of us model in 1/87 and the effect is even greater. As
an
example, Brunswick Green may be Brunswick Green, but if the actual
color is used in HO, it will likely appear too dark. Add in your
own
preferred lighting source, weathering, etc., and mileages will
definitely vary.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road
Guilford, CT 06437
(203) 453-6174
info@...





Re: How about creating a model prototype database?

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Provided that one KNOWS what they are looking for. I joined the
illinois-central-model list, and searched through their topics for
what
I found out were the IC 75000-series hopper cars that I want to
model.
Eventually I found it, but it took a bit of looking. First I had to
determine what car series I was looking at, not easy considering that
these cars were converted gons that the IC used for less than 20
years. I learned a lot between our and the IC modeling lists!

Maybe this was the "1 out of 10 times" when a topic search doesn't
work?

I understand that there are perennial discussions on lists. I
personally uploaded a scan yesterday of a CN ETT page to the "files"
section of two Canadian lists because a question was recurring on
them that is readily answered by recourse to that ETT page.

And as for sharing what you find (or know), I hold out to you that
what our list members have shared with me both in the group and
privately about modelling Erie and IC hopper cars in the past couple
of days is proof of this. I want you all to know that I appreciate
your help.

Steve Lucas.



--- In STMFC@..., "cvsne" <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:


9 times out of 10 a simple search of the extensive message archive
for the 7 years or so this list has been active will result in a
lot
of answers. If it doesn't then it sounds to me like it's time to
research it and share what you find with the rest of the group.

Marty


Etched Brass instead of Scribed Siding

Norm <ndrez@...>
 

I know that many manufacturers have produced models of wood-era railroad car which had wood siding, generally edge-to-edge boards with no appreciable gap, in etched brass because that was the chosen medium for the product. Right now I have to produce a decking for a model ship of the 1920's that had a deck that was similarly constructed. Commercial scribed siding is the "lazy" way but results in a model in which the gaps between the boards is vastly larger than scale. Most dedicated ship modelers will do the same thing that model railroaders and structure modelers do which is to glue up stripwood edge to edge to produce realistic siding or decking.

I happen to have on hand in my workshop an appreciable quantity of unetched brass-covered PC boards and I've made PC circuit boards before using various techniques. Producing etched (stand-alone) brass is also done with very similar techniques and isn't out of my range.

The question I'm facing is this: My hands are partially disabled with bilateral nerve damage so actually producing a full deck's worth of plank-by-plank sheeting is a considerable challenge. But I want the best possible model for display.

SO ... Has anyone actually done -- or seen done -- the use of etched brass (or PC board, same thing) which truly reproduces the appearance of plank-by-plank sheeting (decking)? Given modern printing methods with typical resolution of ~1K ppi, getting lines which are 2 mils wide (.002") is practical. For reference, since I'm working in 87:1 / 1/8" scale, this represents a gap of 1/6" which would be a great improvement over commercial scribed siding with gaps on the order of 1/64" representing over 1" spacing.

Norm Dresner


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Manfred Lorenz
 

This technique of scaling down a color by lightening was actually
covered in some other forum "RPM". It was contested whether it is
the "right" approach. Knowing nothing about this subject I presume
that
- outdoors and indoors require different adjustments for color
- indoor conditions are not uniform regarding the type of lighting
and the ambient light reflections

Under standardized ambient conditions I can imagine how a color could
be adjusted. But taking all the variants into account will need
probably some more work.

I think that the effect that makes experience of a color different in
nature and on models is the size of the colored area appearing in the
field of view. If one is standing next to Brunswick green loco all
the viewable area is b/g. The eyes adjust to the available light that
is reflected from the loco by opening up the lens. No sky and such
interfere. Looking at the model the area covered with the paint is
only part of what the eye sees. Much likely there are lighter areas
that force the eye to stop down it's lens. Like a camera that is not
able to do justice to all the light and dark areas at the same time
using one exposure time. So the color looks different, mostly too
dark. The same effect will happen when outside and stepping back from
said loco. It will become a small dark spot which also appears too
dark.

Manfred


--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:

One other interesting tidbit where we in the model railroading
community have barely scratched the surface is the interpretation
and
integration of scale effect into our colors and painting.
Monogram
(not the kit company) published many military books, one of which
was
the ultimate on Luftwaffe painting, the Official Monogram Painting
Guide to German Aircraft, 1935-1945. In the book, they touch on
the
notion of scale via intensity and chroma and include chips to
illustrate what three common colors actually look like and then
what
they should approximate in 1/32 and 1/72 scales. The 1/72 is
significantly lighter than the actual color. Consider that the
majority of us model in 1/87 and the effect is even greater. As
an
example, Brunswick Green may be Brunswick Green, but if the actual
color is used in HO, it will likely appear too dark. Add in your
own
preferred lighting source, weathering, etc., and mileages will
definitely vary.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road
Guilford, CT 06437
(203) 453-6174
info@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Greg;



I think we need to set a few facts straight.



I have in my archives a set of EMD drawings for the paint and lettering
diagrams for the PRR F-units in which they clearly detail all of the specs
for interior and exterior paints used or called out by EMD. The society
continues to use and re-print the PRRT&HS version of these diagrams which are
an interpretation of the EMD (read as not the same, exactly).

The Society does not continue to use anything but your recommendations as to
what BG/DGLE should look like, and those of the Paint Committee, who agree
largely that the color you did on the original Athearn Genesis F's is the
closest the majority can agree will ever come to what the majority agree
BG/DGLE looked like during the years in which those units were painted that
color. When set side by side, as we did, the DGLE paint swatch the Society
did generate (back when), plus the paint seen on the backside of the EMD
F-unit builder's badge we examined from a PRR F-unit, plus the Athearn
Genesis model, were closer than we would have thought. Not the same exactly,
but close. In contrast to the majority of PRR engines everyone else
generates. That being said, the new P2K SD-7 looks good, so some folks are
listening.

On the second point, the PRRT&HS has not reprinted any "diagrams" or anything
in color representing what the PRR painted anything, since those color cards
were generated back so many years ago. What has happened, was that the Paint
Committee was formed 5 years ago, upon everyone's agreement that it was time
to go back and re-examine the whole issue of what was "right", including the
validity of the old PRRT&HS-generated color cards, for the numerous
applications the railroad engaged in. Those are the facts.

If you are aware of anyone representing themselves as the "PRRT&HS" (as has
happened numerous times, even recently), and is doing any of these things you
implied let us know! Names, please!

I have offered reproductions for the PRRT&HS for their archives and they have
never taken that opportunity.

That is not true. We asked, and we have yet to receive your color
chips/samples. Bruce brings this up each year at the Paint Committee
meeting. What about it? Do you need my address? Bruce's? Al's?

They (PRRT&HS) continues to try to reproduce the correct du Pont Color for
DGLE/DGLP (AKA Brunswick Green reference Glidden and Pullman)?

The PRRT&HS has done nothing of the kind. The Paint Committee is in the
process of trying to get Munsell numbers generated for a host of color
swatches folks have either created/obtained for various "Paints" said to have
been applied to any number of subjects they believe to be "accurate", or for
actual samples said to be for this or that. The PRRT&HS did nothing with
Dupont other than examine what Dupont called their version of paints they
felt would satisfy the PRR's procurement folks in matching available paints
from their line to what the PRR was looking for.

and although EMD did call for some du Pont paint (both Duco and Dulux)?that
was not the basic (manufacturer) exterior "Green"?color or "Buff" color?EMD
used for the body or the stripes...?

While we actually do have a can of "Brunswick Green" in one of the members'
possession, it is only one manufacturer's interpretation of what the PRR
wanted when they sent out a call for paints that would match their
specifications, and of course then, only good for that one point in history
(in this case, 1960's touch-up applications, most likely for painting out old
numbers before applications of the new numbers c. 1966). The actual
generation of "suggested" model paint "matches" or mixes that the majority of
members of the Paint Committee agree might most closely represent the real
applications used at various points in time for numerous different engine,
rolling stock, cabin car, structure, and other applications has been a long
and arduous process involving a lot of folks, including our Committee Chair,
Carl Izzo, our industrial paint expert (his career was spent in that
industry).

The Paint Committee continues to look at samples of paint, both from
prototype applications and from samples of available paints and mixes, to see
what the members believe is closest to a particular application. Since the
Committee is regularly asked for advice on prototype restorations, the paint
suggestions are made in reference to what the majority believe is appropriate
for a full-sized restoration, not for scale models, although they are the
most obvious (and more numerous) applications of this process. There is
general agreement that scale effect is something that needs to be looked at
in more detail, specifically with applications to the numerous colors and
hues we have looked at, but there is only so much time in a day.

On the issue of archiving, we found that the paint samples we had in our
possession, some of which were in folders filed away long ago, all differed,
sometimes dramatically, from what anyone "remembered", or what hundreds of
photos would have us believe. Unless that "paint" was sealed in a vacuum in
a dark room for its entire existence, it, like the real thing, suffered from
the effects of sunlight, oxygen, and other agents of change, each one of them
from a different suite of agents and effects. The "paint" we have felt to be
the most representative of what the real thing looked like at one time, has
been those few samples we have been given that were "sealed up" by additional
paint (not varnishes or other "protective" finishes), those that were in some
way protected from air and sunlight and water, in a medium most gentle to
their survival, like the Wooly Mammoth in ice. Everything, however, suffers
change, and we are talking about paints applied to railroad subjects more
than fifty years ago.

Lastly, I and other folks that volunteer a lot of our time (unpaid and
unrewarded by the way), that do a lot of work that benefits others that don't
do a lick of effort toward, and have to hear implications that we are not
doing enough, or not doing the right thing, frankly irritate the !@#$%^%$#@
out of us. What, a free modeling magazine that averages 30+ pages a month
(TKM), the results you get annually from the Paint Committee, the Archives
Committee and many other volunteers aren't enough?



Elden Gatwood

Chair, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee

Member, PRRT&HS Paint Committee






-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:08 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Greg Martin wrote:
Your correct it would be great. Then of course for those of who model
you would have to make that determination of the CORRECT color . . . I
am of the mind of Richard Hendrickson and I believe you get it close,
weather it, and move on...
Again, you are confusing the ultimate modeling problem with the
problem of archiving the various railroad paints. If we don't do
something to archive the ORIGINAL colors, though, you are right about
"solving" the problem: there won't be any standard, so you won't even
have to "get close," just use a bottle of BCR, weather, and you're
done.
To me, that falls a bit short of "prototype modeling."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history





__


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

Ship modelers do the same thing on a regular basis as close up the
color separations and variations in ship camo and painting patterns
can be stark and clearly visible - look at the same ship from 8-12
miles away and the effect is radically different.

As Ted knows, airplane modelers will often use this technique to
create the impression one pilot would have when viewing another
plane from a distance. One thing to think about before deciding to
paint lots of "atmosphere" into our models is the
relative "distance" we view our models from is considerably less
than what military modelers are often working with. A two foot wide
shelf is about 180 scale feet wide - even adding in our distance
from the shelf - about 1 foot, and height above the rail, say 2
feet -- the total distance from the model is somehwere around 500
feet. Not really a lot of atmosphere to include.

For things like background models of structures and hillsides I
think we really need to seriously examine painting in atmosphere -
but those topics are, of course, beyond the scope of this list.

Marty



--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:

One other interesting tidbit where we in the model railroading
community have barely scratched the surface is the interpretation
and
integration of scale effect into our colors and painting.
Monogram
(not the kit company) published many military books, one of which
was
the ultimate on Luftwaffe painting, the Official Monogram
Painting
Guide to German Aircraft, 1935-1945. In the book, they touch on
the
notion of scale via intensity and chroma and include chips to
illustrate what three common colors actually look like and then
what
they should approximate in 1/32 and 1/72 scales. The 1/72 is
significantly lighter than the actual color. Consider that the
majority of us model in 1/87 and the effect is even greater. As
an
example, Brunswick Green may be Brunswick Green, but if the
actual
color is used in HO, it will likely appear too dark. Add in your
own
preferred lighting source, weathering, etc., and mileages will
definitely vary.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road
Guilford, CT 06437
(203) 453-6174
info@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: How about creating a model prototype database?

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

A quick search under "What's a Wiki?" in the message archives will
take you to March 2006 - where we discussed using a Wiki to
establish a paint scheme data base . . . just like in the other
thread that's going on parallel to this one.

Well, we've had more than two years to get this Wiki rolling. I even
appointed several railroad reps to write their appropriate portions
(Hendrickson gets Santa Fe, Thompson SP) and Schneider even
volunteered to handle the O&W section. As you can see, progress has
been glacial at best . . .

I think the simplest answer is this would be (1) a LOT of work and
(2) the person(s) who would have to develop all this detail have
other things they'd like to do with their time.

9 times out of 10 a simple search of the extensive message archive
for the 7 years or so this list has been active will result in a lot
of answers. If it doesn't then it sounds to me like it's time to
research it and share what you find with the rest of the group.

Marty


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

One other interesting tidbit where we in the model railroading
community have barely scratched the surface is the interpretation and
integration of scale effect into our colors and painting. Monogram
(not the kit company) published many military books, one of which was
the ultimate on Luftwaffe painting, the Official Monogram Painting
Guide to German Aircraft, 1935-1945. In the book, they touch on the
notion of scale via intensity and chroma and include chips to
illustrate what three common colors actually look like and then what
they should approximate in 1/32 and 1/72 scales. The 1/72 is
significantly lighter than the actual color. Consider that the
majority of us model in 1/87 and the effect is even greater. As an
example, Brunswick Green may be Brunswick Green, but if the actual
color is used in HO, it will likely appear too dark. Add in your own
preferred lighting source, weathering, etc., and mileages will
definitely vary.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road
Guilford, CT 06437
(203) 453-6174
info@...


Re: Color Matching for Freight Cars

bdg1210 <Bruce_Griffin@...>
 

Kurt,

Based on your posts to this list, you seem interested in this topic
and other related to improving the hobby, so I suggest you start the
ball rolling. If you would like a free copy of one of these
standards ou mention below, I will send it to you. As an ASTM member
I get to choose a free copy of a standard each year (I probably
alredy have the ones you need). Send me your address and the
standard you think is most beneficial to the process and I will
forward it.

I too had a concern about the direction of something related to paint
and joined ASTM to get a standard practice through the process (it
was related to hazardous waste produced by artists, they still use
the solvents and pigments we can't for economic reasons). While I
understand you do not want to work with ASTM as that may not be
appropriate for pursuing RR colors, I will be happy to offer copies
of the ASTM standards you need to further your effort to develop a
method for RR color color matching. You seem to the have the
passion, so I hope you pursue it for the greater good. Your email
indicates that "they" can pursue it, but I have always found
that "they" usually means "you" or "I" and I know in this case
its "you" as "I" am involved in producing the B&O Modeler. The B&O
Modeler has cut into my modeling time in a significant way, but I
hope that it helps others model the B&O better and I reap that
benefit.

Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin
Summerfield, NC
and in this case:
Editor, B&O Modeler, and
Chair, ASTM, Hazardous Waste Disposal for Artists DO1.57.17 Task Group

P.S. When one considers painting their models in the "correct" color
have they also considered light fastness of the color. In the art
world its a big deal when paint fades, as a great work can disappear
over time. Have modelers considered what happens to the perfect
paint color they spray that is then exposed to UV radiation and
lightens? Will it lighten or degrade over time when exposed to
light? Sorry that is really taking the topic too far.



--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

Awhile back there were discussions about color identification and
matching of historical railroad paints. I haven't had the
opportunity or interest to look into this before now, but here are
some recognized standardization documents that people may find
useful
if they want to pursue this quest. If anybody is serious about
actually doing this I would suggest that they follow these proven
methods rather than ginning something up from scratch and going off
without a clear understanding of what is important.

(All are published by ASTM International, formerly the American
Society for Testing and Materials)

ASTM E 308 Computing the Colors of Objects by Using the CIE System
(Establishes a coordinate value for color of an object based on
reflectance, transmittance, and radiance. Fully mechanized from
what
I can tell, meaning independent of the perceptions of a human
viewer.)

ASTM D1535 Specifying Color by the Munsell System (Provides a
means
of specifying colors of opaque objects such as painted objects. A
comparison system for an observer with normal color vision.
Simpler
than CIE System but operator dependent.)

ASTM E1360 Specifying Color Using the Optical Society of America
Uniform Color Scales System (Provides a means of specifying colors
of opaque objects such as painted objects. A comparison system for
an observer with normal color vision. Again, simpler but operator
dependent.)

ASTM D1729 Visual Appraisal of Colors and Color Differences of
Diffusely- Illuminated Opaque Materials (The correct way to
visually
evaluate color samples to standards.)

ASTM D 5531 Preparation. Maintenance, and Distribution of Physical
Product Standards for Color and Geometric Appearance of Coatings
(Describes techniques for generating and caring for standards.)

In addition to these five there are a raft of others covering
various
aspects of the process and the equipment used. In real life there
is
big money riding on making the right color, so a lot of attention
was
paid to coming up with objective (or nearly objective) means to
evaluate color. You had might as well use it.

I'm sure there will be plenty of following posts explaining why
these
will never work for matching the colors of paint on railroad
equipment and why it is useless if not criminal and unpatriotic to
even presume that color identification and matching is feasible
conceptually, but here it is.

KL


New S scale kit available

Jim King
 

The Southern Ry. 41'6" flat car in S scale is now in production and will
start shipping to dealers early next week. Mail orders will ship after
dealers. Go to my web site (link is below) in the S scale section and click
on the SR flat car link to view a prototype photo, info and prices. The
pilot model photo will replace the proto pic shortly.



Pricing is $65 for a loaded kit (includes trucks w/ scale wheels, Kadee 802s
and laser-printed Roman decals); $55 less t/c but including decals.
Shipping is $7 per order up to 3 kits; $10 for 4 or more. The flat car was
in revenue service from 1926 to 1973 and in MOW to this day.



A Southern composite gon, built on the same flat car frame, will be in
production in July. Estimated retail price will be $70 (loaded), $60 less
t/c. This car was in revenue service from 1928/29 to at least 1965.



The 1974 Southern, P-S, 50' single door waffle side box will follow the
composite gon, including roller bearing trucks with rotating end caps (the
start of my new freight car truck line). Hundreds of these cars are still
in revenue service all over the country, many still proudly wearing the
"SOUTHERN SERVES THE SOUTH" paint scheme, though badly worn and often
covered in graffiti!



It's an exciting time to be in S scale . come see what all the enthusiasm is
about! Join one of the (3) Yahoo S scale lists today to stay informed on
new offerings.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

125501 - 125520 of 198533