Date   

Re: Per Diem and Demurrage

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Thanks, Greg, you got the questions dead on, and between you and Malcolm Laughlin's answers (and
some discussion last night at our model railroad club) I've "got it, by Jove, I think he's got it!"

SGL

Yeh, yeh, yeh, I know, it's a "she" in that original line.

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of tgregmrtn@...
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 3:44 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Per Diem and Demurrage


Schuyler,

What I think I hear you asking is:

1.) Did the demurrage clock stop the per diem clock, the answer is NO. One comes into play
(demurrage) as a penalty to
the receiver for keeping a car too long. Per Diem is a method of car accounting to help recoup the
cost of the car. Both
are functions of car accounting department for car utilization.

2.) Was there a check written between railroads for per diem? The answer is? a bit more
complicated. Yes, there were
checks cut, but likely the larger railroads with larger fleets wrote less checks to smaller bridge
lines i.e., PRR wouldn't
likely send much to the New Haven, but I am sure the New Haven was cutting checks to the NYC, PRR,
and the so
forth... Yes, there was a dollar exchange, some paper exchange, and always more than 90 days in
the rears, as it is at
least that in todays world with the class 1 railroads.?This may help some understand why asset
utilization?was and is so
important. If you have plenty of business on your own railroad why would you want to turn your
cars over to a long
haul cross country move, when your share of the revenue stops at?your last junction? Ask Russ?he
was in car
management... Your best asset is your?cars, on your line.?A call to your local clerk or agent for
a "Load Home
Road"?was an easy call and you can't tell me that the clerks?or aganets couldn't get permission to
load empty cars
home... Regardless of the rules applicators made those calls... sans a huge harvest on the PFE
roads of course... 3^)?

Greg Martin ??

riginal Message-----
From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@... <mailto:schuyler.larrabee%40verizon.net> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 5:40 pm
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Per Diem and Demurrage

I appears to me you have it right, Peter, but I have a couple more questions:

1) once delivered, did per diem continue while the consignee had their three days to unload the
car?

2) OK so there was a huge amount of employment for accountants to keep all this pretty straight.
But did the railroads actually exchange money on a daily basis, or even monthly? For most roads
wouldn't this pretty much all work out in the wash? (Yeah, I know, NP never got their own cars
back). Or was it something that actually did result in bank transfers every 30 or 90 days or what?

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:49 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Per Diem and Demurrage

So let's see if we have this straight, for the non-expert:

Per Diem is the fee that railroads pay to each other for the use of cars owned by the
payee railroad. In the STMFC days, that was $2.00 per day. The paperwork must have been
fascinating in the pre-computer age; calculating how much railroad A owed to Railroads B
through Z for the cars on Railroad A's property.

Demurrage is the fee that customers who receive shipments pay to the delivering railroad
if they keep a freight car for longer than the "grace period" for unloading.

Two different terms, often mistakenly used interchangeably.

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH
__________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
<http://webmail.aol.com>






FW: Catalog of Bridges 1910

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Another find from my friend Ron.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron
To: Schuyler Larrabee
Subject: Catalog of Bridges 1910

Schuyler,

Thought you might like this one:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xc4NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA56&dq=%22buffalo+creek+railroad%22&lr=&as_brr=1#
PPP1,M1

Ron


Re: Per Diem and Demurrage

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "tgregmrtn@..." > One comes into play (demurrage) as a penalty to the receiver for keeping a car too long.

It applied equally to the shipper.

> Per Diem is a method of car accounting to help recoup the cost of the car. Both are functions of car accounting department for car utilization.

Demurrage was not part of car accounting. It was part of the station accounting process. Demurrage bills were cut by the same clerks in the agencies who handled revenue billing.

None of this had much to do with what we called "car utilization" in that era. That was the management process of finding ways to get better turnaround on the cars. The only relationship between that and accounting was that net per diem was part of the scorecard for car utilization.

I should mantion that my knowledge of this comes from having been associated with car management at various times between 1960 and 1967 and having worked with accounting functions both as a railroad employee and as a consultant.

. If you have plenty of business on your own railroad why would you want to turn your cars over to a long haul cross country move, when your share of the revenue stops at?your last junction?
In most cases the shippers loaded to many destinations on and off line, and the railroad had little control. They weren't going to tell a shipper that sentout several cars a day that he had to have his shipments to the west, for example, in western mark cars and so on. In theory the railroads could have cars loaded towards their home roads, but in practice they had little control.

In selecting cars to load, there was a big conflict of interest between what was good for an individual railroad and what was good for the system. If you loaded your own cars and sent foreigns home empty, you reduced your own net per diem. But to minimize railroad system empty car miles and days, it was much better to load foreigns in the direction that they were going to move empty. One of the projects in the AAR/FRA car management program in the 70's was working towards getting railroads to load the cars in a manner that reduced total system empty mileage.

> you can't tell me that the clerks?or aganets couldn't get permission to load empty cars home... Regardless of the rules applicators made those calls...

On most railroads they didn't have to get specific permission to laod any general service car. They might get bawled out for making the wrong call too often, but that wasn't easy to detect. What they would be zapped for was not spotting an available car for loading and losing the load.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: MC 17000-18999 (MDT reefer class M4-3)

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Mathu

They were used in condensed milk service between Evangeline Milk
Company in Sturgeon Bay and First National Stores...
Sorry: for clarification, that should be Sturgeon Bay, Wisc.
And should be Somerville, Massachusetts.

SGL (A one-time resident thereof)


FW: Private Freight Cars 1908

Schuyler Larrabee
 

A friend sent me this. He's not into freight cars, but knew I'd be interested. And so will anyone
here who's into the early 20th century in private freight cars.

N.b.: I have not read it, only scanned through some pages. I will print it when I can get to a
printer that prints double sided copies.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 12:49 AM
To: Schuyler Larrabee
Subject: Private Freight Cars 1908

Unfortunately, no pictures
http://books.google.com/books?id=0e9AAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=stockyards+buffalo&lr=&as_brr=1#PPA3,M1

Ron


Re: VGN Hoppers

vgnry <vgnry212@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "joel norman" <mec-bml@...> wrote:

Ive noticed in all the NewEngland rail books in my library that any
photo of a freight train having a VGN hopper (mostly quad hoppers)that
the lettering is ALWAYS washed out...the photos are(or were taken)in
the late 1940's into middle 1950's.Did this railroad use low grade paint
or was it the nature of the coal(high sulfur?)or just a poor railroad?
Other then builders photos has any seen photos of this railroads coal
hoppers with the lettering not washed out??
Thanks for the help and a Blessed 2008 to you all.
The VGN never owned quad hoppers, but it did own triple hoppers of
USRA design that were showing some age by the '50s.

It is highly unlikely that it used "low grade" paint. Coal was its
lifeblood and coal cars dominated its roster. Not likely that it
scrimped when it came to paint.

It was one of the most efficient and profitable railroads in this
country when measured versus size. Poor it was not.

As with any coal hauler, some cars weathered rather quickly. The
combination of corrosive coal dust and the salt air of Tidewater could
do a number on cars.

Having said that, photos of VGN coal trains on the home road or on
neighboring C&O show very few "washed out" cars.

Bill McClure
Richmond


Re: VGN Hoppers

Mark P.
 

Joel,

I've noticed the same thing (washed out VGN lettering) on the hoppers that appeared in photos from the Winona [IN] railroad in the mid to late '40s. I haven't been able to determine the VGN car numbers on any of the photos yet, and have struggled seeing all the VGN lettering as well.

Ive noticed in all the NewEngland rail books in my library that any
photo of a freight train having a VGN hopper (mostly quad hoppers)that
the lettering is ALWAYS washed out...the photos are(or were taken)in
the late 1940's into middle 1950's.Did this railroad use low grade paint
or was it the nature of the coal(high sulfur?)or just a poor railroad?
Other then builders photos has any seen photos of this railroads coal
hoppers with the lettering not washed out??
Mark Plank

--
Got No Time? Shop Online for Great Gift Ideas!
http://mail.shopping.com/?linkin_id=8033174


Re: VGN Hoppers

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Joel Norman asked:
"I've noticed in all the New England rail books in my library that any
photo of a freight train having a VGN hopper (mostly quad hoppers)..."

First, the Virginian had ZERO quad hoppers. What you saw were triples
or twins. See Frank Bongiovanni's spreadsheet and notes in the group
files section for mre information on the Virginian's hopper fleet.

"...that the lettering is ALWAYS washed out...the photos are (or were
taken) in the late 1940's into middle 1950's. Did this railroad use
low grade paint or was it the nature of the coal (high sulfur?)or just
a poor railroad?"

This is a common weathering pattern for VGN, N&W, and coal hoppers in
general. The "poor railroad" theory is certainly bogus for the
Viriginian and N&W!

"Other then builders photos has any seen photos of this railroads coal
hoppers with the lettering not washed out??"

Yes.


Ben Hom


VGN Hoppers

joel norman <mec-bml@...>
 

Ive noticed in all the NewEngland rail books in my library that any
photo of a freight train having a VGN hopper (mostly quad hoppers)that
the lettering is ALWAYS washed out...the photos are(or were taken)in
the late 1940's into middle 1950's.Did this railroad use low grade paint
or was it the nature of the coal(high sulfur?)or just a poor railroad?
Other then builders photos has any seen photos of this railroads coal
hoppers with the lettering not washed out??
Thanks for the help and a Blessed 2008 to you all.
Joel Norman


Attention Mike Brock... Cocoa clinic

nyowbill <branchline@...>
 

Mike,

Had catastrophic meltdown of PC (and subsequently its operator) on
Wednesday, thereby losing all E-mail history and your shipping address
for Cocoa contributions.

Should you still desire to receive same, please contact me at my
currently WORKING e-mail address oandw@... with shipping
address.

I apologize to the rest of you for wasting the bandwidth, and look
forward to seeing many of you in Cocoa. I'll be the one in the corner
of the bar mumbling something about bleeping computers....

Thanks,

Bill


Re: MC 17000-18999 (MDT reefer class M4-3)

rhinman@...
 

MDT 17635 Aug-23 sold Annapee & western Apr 16, 1948
MDT 17425 Jul-23 sold Annapee & western Aug 14, 1948
MDT 17437 Jul-23 sold Annapee & wesstern Aug 14, 1948
MDT 19021 May-24 sold Annapee & western Aug 18, 1948
MDT 19691 Aug-24 sold Annapee & wesstern Aug 14, 1948

These wee the exact number MDT reefers sold to Anahpee and Western, three were from the MC lot referenced and the other two from two separate lots(see details below)

For modeler's where a good paint job is good enough the Accurail or Bline wood reefers are okay. The resin project for this car stalled a few years ago and I'm trying to get it moving again.

Jeff's right, I am on travel this week, but laptops are a wonderful thing

Roger Hinman



Build Lot Details:
1000 Cars built Jun 23-xx23 MDT17000-17999
RR Lot 469R MDT Lot 636

Financing
NYC Equipment Trust of ???? Michigan Central owner

Build Lot Details:
440 Cars built May 24-Aug 24 MDT19000-19439
RR Lot 497R MDT Lot 646

Financing
NYC Equipment Trust of ???? NYC owner

Subsequent Renumberings
Some renumbered to 43000-43999?
Account Group ??

Build Lot Details:
500 Cars built Sep 24-Oct 24 MDT19440-19939
RR Lot 498R MDT Lot 646

Financing
NYC Equipment Trust of ???? CCC&StL owner

Subsequent Renumberings
Some renumbered to 43000-43999?



Subsequent Renumberings
Some renumbered to 41000-42999?
Account Group 13??


Re: What Roads Had This Car? (50' DD AAR Boxcar w/ IDE, YSD, & Panel Roof)

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 27, 2007, at 2:58 PM, timboconnor@... wrote:

I think Ed omitted SP because of the uncommon pattern of
side panels on SP cars.
Tim and Tony,
Yes, and the same is true for the omission of MoPac home-built 50' cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: What Roads Had This Car? (50' DD AAR Boxcar w/ IDE, YSD, & Panel Roof)

Tim O'Connor
 

I think Ed omitted SP because of the uncommon pattern of
side panels on SP cars.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Ed's list omits SP's cars like this, Class A-50-15, but as you
say, they had metal running boards.


Re: Per Diem and Demurrage

Greg Martin
 

Schuyler,



What I think I hear you asking is:



1.) Did the demurrage clock stop the per diem clock, the answer is NO. One comes into play (demurrage) as a penalty to the receiver for keeping a car too long. Per Diem is a method of car accounting to help recoup the cost of the car. Both are functions of car accounting department for car utilization.

2.) Was there a check written between railroads for per diem? The answer is? a bit more complicated. Yes, there were checks cut, but likely the larger railroads with larger fleets wrote less checks to smaller bridge lines i.e., PRR wouldn't likely send much to the New Haven, but I am sure the New Haven was cutting checks to the NYC, PRR, and the so forth... Yes, there was a dollar exchange, some paper exchange, and always more than 90 days in the rears, as it is at least that in todays world with the class 1 railroads.?This may help some understand why asset utilization?was and is so important. If you have plenty of business on your own railroad why would you want to turn your cars over to a long haul cross country move, when your share of the revenue stops at?your last junction? Ask Russ?he was in car management... Your best asset is your?cars, on your line.?A call to your local clerk or agent for a "Load Home Road"?was an easy call and you can't tell me that the clerks?or aganets couldn't get permission to load empty cars home... Regardless of the rules applicators made those calls... sans a huge harvest on the PFE roads of course... 3^)?

Greg Martin ??

riginal Message-----
From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 5:40 pm
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Per Diem and Demurrage







I appears to me you have it right, Peter, but I have a couple more questions:

1) once delivered, did per diem continue while the consignee had their three days to unload the car?

2) OK so there was a huge amount of employment for accountants to keep all this pretty straight.
But did the railroads actually exchange money on a daily basis, or even monthly? For most roads
wouldn't this pretty much all work out in the wash? (Yeah, I know, NP never got their own cars
back). Or was it something that actually did result in bank transfers every 30 or 90 days or what?

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:49 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Per Diem and Demurrage

So let's see if we have this straight, for the non-expert:

Per Diem is the fee that railroads pay to each other for the use of cars owned by the
payee railroad. In the STMFC days, that was $2.00 per day. The paperwork must have been
fascinating in the pre-computer age; calculating how much railroad A owed to Railroads B
through Z for the cars on Railroad A's property.

Demurrage is the fee that customers who receive shipments pay to the delivering railroad
if they keep a freight car for longer than the "grace period" for unloading.

Two different terms, often mistakenly used interchangeably.

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH




________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


Re: What Roads Had This Car?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Brian J Carlson wrote:
The assumption so far is that this car has a prototype. Until a picture is posted submitting potential roads is premature. How do we know that it isn't a brass version of a "generic" 50' boxcar. The car is older and prototype fidelity wasn't as critical back then.
You're absolutely right, Brian, but I think the goal was to find out if there are reasonably close prototypes, even if no exact match. But: as we've been discussing, there may not even be any, if the wood running board is retained.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: What Roads Had This Car? (50' DD AAR Boxcar w/ IDE, YSD, & Panel Roof)

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

The assumption so far is that this car has a prototype. Until a picture is
posted submitting potential roads is premature. How do we know that it isn't
a brass version of a "generic" 50' boxcar. The car is older and prototype
fidelity wasn't as critical back then.

Brian J. Carlson


Re: Per Diem and Demurrage

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

There have been a few items in this discussion on which I hope I can shed some light. Before addressing specific comments, I’d like to note that we should be careful to distinguish between accounting documents and operating documents. Only the formal accounting documents caused money to change hands. Most notable are the wheel report, interchange report and waybill.

Schuyler asked:
2) OK so there was a huge amount of employment for accountants to
keep all this pretty straight.
No accountants were actually involved but there was a huge army of clerks. It was pretty straightforward clerical work. This may seem like a nitpick, but just wanted to make it clear that railroad carand revenue accounting didn’t really require professional accountants. It was a matter of following known agreed procedures, and no professional accounting judgements were involved.

> But did the railroads actually exchange money on a daily basis,
or even monthly? For most roads
There was a monthly inter-railroad settlement. It was done on a net basis with a check going in the direction of the larger amount owed. That fell apart however in the case of bankruptcy. The bankrupt carrier didn’t have to forward its share, but the other carrier had to pay the amount due. This was also true of revenue accounting. This fact was one of the primary cuase of the other railroad bankruptcy filings that came immediately after Penn Central filed.

Posted by: "Jack Burgess"
I have a copy of the form that the YV used for this purpose...pretty simple.
The form is subtitled "Agent's Report of Cars Received, Forwarded and on

An "Agent's Report of Cars ….”, as mentioned by Jack, was a common document found under various names on different railroads. But it was an operating department document, not an accounting document. Per diem was handled by a car Accounting Department which used as its source documents the wheel report and interchange report. The interchange report was the sole authority determining which railroad a car was on at midnight. The wheel report was the important document for mileage cars. It was the official documentation of car movement from one station to another. Tariff mileages were applied to those movements to calculate the mileage to be paid.
Confirming what others have said, per diem was strictly based on the location of the car and totally unrelated to whether it was loaded, in the shop, etc., etc.
There was also a phenomenon called per diem reclaim, which set forth circumstances in which the railroad in possession of a car could reclaim per diem from the owner. Cars delivered in switching service were an example. The line haul road, not the switching road, ultimately was responsible for the per diem. Thee was also reclaim of per diem for pool cars at their point of assignment. There was a code of per diem reclaim rules that IIRC was longer than the code of per diem rules.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: What Roads Had This Car? (50' DD AAR Boxcar w/ IDE, YSD, & Panel Roof)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jeff Dobslaw wrote:
If you're willing to replace or live with the wooden running boards, the following roads had 50' DD boxcars with 4/4 improved dreadnaught ends, Youngstown doors, and panel roofs:
This data came from Ed Hawkins article in the 8/99 issue of RMJ, which contains a roster of 50' DD boxcars built 1945-1961.
Ed's list omits SP's cars like this, Class A-50-15, but as you say, they had metal running boards.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: What Roads Had This Car? (50' DD AAR Boxcar w/ IDE, YSD, & Panel Roof)

Tim O'Connor
 

ALL box cars and reefers built (new) from 1945-1966 had metal running boards.
This includes all of the cars in your list.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "jwdobs" <jwdobs@...>
Rod,

Tony's correct, the exact combination you describe might be very
difficult to locate. That's because IN GENERAL most 50' cars with
wooden running boards had 5/5 or 5/4 dreadnaught ends and were built
from 1935 - 1945 (these cars are covered in an article by Richard
Hendrickson in the 10/95 issue of RMJ).

ATSF 8500-8999 (Fe-27), built 3-48
B&O 296600-296999 (PM-58), built 8-45 (Duryea underframe)
MKT 46001-46075, built 1945
NJ&I 3200-3299, built 8-48 (15-6 door opening)
SSW 47100-47199, built 3-47 (50 cars had YSD, 50 cars had SUP)
WAB 19125-19274, built 4-48 (15-6 door opening, roof type unknown)


Re: What Roads Had This Car? (50' DD AAR Boxcar w/ IDE, YSD, & Panel Roof)

jwdobs
 

Rod,

Tony's correct, the exact combination you describe might be very
difficult to locate. That's because IN GENERAL most 50' cars with
wooden running boards had 5/5 or 5/4 dreadnaught ends and were built
from 1935 - 1945 (these cars are covered in an article by Richard
Hendrickson in the 10/95 issue of RMJ).

If you're willing to replace or live with the wooden running boards,
the following roads had 50' DD boxcars with 4/4 improved dreadnaught
ends, Youngstown doors, and panel roofs:

ATSF 8500-8999 (Fe-27), built 3-48
B&O 296600-296999 (PM-58), built 8-45 (Duryea underframe)
MKT 46001-46075, built 1945
NJ&I 3200-3299, built 8-48 (15-6 door opening)
SSW 47100-47199, built 3-47 (50 cars had YSD, 50 cars had SUP)
WAB 19125-19274, built 4-48 (15-6 door opening, roof type unknown,
but likely panel)

This data came from Ed Hawkins article in the 8/99 issue of RMJ,
which contains a roster of 50' DD boxcars built 1945-1961. There's a
builder's photo of B&O 296600 in the article and it clearly has metal
running boards. There's also a photo of MKT 46001 which also appears
to have metal running boards.

If you're looking to locate rosters of specific car types, one place
to start is the Model Train Magazine Index located at
http://index.mrmag.com/

But perhaps the best place to start looking for protoype information
is the Rensselaer Railroad Heritage Website at
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/index.php

It's a pay site (~$5/month), but the amount of freight car data and
the site's organization is superb. In fact, this is where I started
when I was doing research on 50' AAR boxcar prototypes. This site
then led me to the magazine articles I referenced above.

Looking forward to seeing you at OSW!

Best regards,

Jeff Dobslaw






--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Rod Miller wrote:
Most of the models are described by the features that the model
depicts. For example, I have in front me a 50 foot box car
described
on the box label as: "A.A.R. Double Door Box Car, Murphy Roof,
Youngstown Doors, Improved Dreadnaught Ends, and Wooden Roof
Walk."

I assume that's a straight-panel Murphy roof. But the
combination
of features seems anachronistic to me. In 1944, the wooden running
board was banned for new construction, and that's about the time
the
Improved Dreadnaught end came in. Of course a model photo would
help,
particularly since the number and arrangement of side panels varied
from road to road, but I think there may be a narrow range of
accurate
prototypes for what you describe.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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