Tony and Dennis,

I didn't want to contradict Dennis' assertion about pig iron not being used for steel production without any materials at hand, but since you (Tony) stepped into this thread I can cite at least one mill that did. If you remember, there used to be a Bethlehem Steel plant in Downey (at Downey and Slauson, IIRC) until the early 1980s. Years ago I wrote an article on this plant and its narrow gauge line for the NARROW GUAGE AND SHORTLINE GAZETTE. In my research I discovered that around the turn of the century the plant's forerunner used imported Chinese pig iron and local scrap to make steel. Indeed, the original mill was a fairly small scale operation. By the time I saw it in the 1970s, the Downey plant only produced steel and steel wire from scrap.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dennis said:

Pig iron wouldn't be further refined to steel, either, this was done as a secondary operation when the iron was still molten from it's reduction in the blast furnace . . .

And Tony responded:

Certainly true of the majority of iron produced, but pig iron was often used on a small scale as a feedstock to make steel, and still is, though as Dennis says, the reasons for its use have shrunk considerably. I would say that both of the points Garth quoted from the Wikipedia article are not wrong, but perhaps potentially misleading if not read with understanding.

Guys,

Thanks to all for the voluminous amount of information on pig iron. I'll
go
out on a limb and guess that this particular type of gondola load hasn't
been offered in HO scale. It would probably be easy to do by taking some
plastic sprues or rods, cutting them into various lengths and rounding
off
the ends. Shaping and gluing them into a realistic load might be a
problem
though; perhaps it would be easier to just pour them into a gondola and
leave them as a loose load. Maybe a good way to cover a weight, for
those
cars that don't have room between floor and underframe.

Shawn Beckert

Dennis Storzek wrote:

Wrought iron was never actually liquefied, it was an archaic way of producing iron . . . Things we call "wrought iron" today, like railings and patio furniture are simply mild steel, crafted in the style of wrought iron.

This is an unnecessary confusion of a production process for iron, with the working to make it "wrought." There is nothing wrong with the contemporary term, which emphasizes the wrought history of the piece, not its route from iron ore.

Pig iron wouldn't be further refined to steel, either, this was done as a secondary operation when the iron was still molten from it's reduction in the blast furnace . . .

Certainly true of the majority of iron produced, but pig iron was often used on a small scale as a feedstock to make steel, and still is, though as Dennis says, the reasons for its use have shrunk considerably. I would say that both of the points Garth quoted from the Wikipedia article are not wrong, but perhaps potentially misleading if not read with understanding.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...

Iron Wire can be used with a pair of D batteries to make a hot knife
for styrofoam shaping.
Lindsay Smith
--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

Thanks for the 2 answers.

I like that Tichy wire too because it's small diameter and very
straight. Details West or Details Associates also sold nice

straight

brass wire. I have several packages of wire from the 2 sources.

Am I correct that heating with a flame would make the brass and
bronze wire easier to bend?

The iron wire is a whole lot softer and easy to bend (like for the
brake rigging).

It's even easier to bend than the infamous green wire.

From my many jobs in factories I picked up scraps of braded copper
wire which I stored in a box. This is real bendy stuff too.

I've considered buying spools of copper wire but it's not as
inexpensive as the iron wire and a spool would last for couple of
life times.

Ed

Dennis,

Thanks for the correction. You are, of course, correct about wrought iron. We all can learn something every day.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dennis Storzek wrote:

Back on mid February, Mike Brock posted a message "towing Loops"
msg. 70257.
I was looking through some NP files at the Minn. History Center
and came across the brochure entitled "Clyde Electric Car Pullers"
and have downloaded to the files, the pages of the brochure,
courtesy of and with the permission of the MHS.(mnhs.org)

Richard Hendrickson, replying to the post stated that "When
there were no towing loops (also called towing staples); the hooks
on the cables were attached to any convenient place on the car."
Pictures in the brochure underscore that comment. Note in the photo
showing the B&O hoppers, a drum rather than capstan is used. The
brochure was undated but bracketed in the files by letters dating to
the early 1940's.

Jim Dick - Roseville, MN

Tim O'Connor wrote:

"I agree the PS-2 2003 is no Kadee, but the Atlas lacks 1/2 of the outlet
brackets which makes it flea market fodder IMO."

Or alternatively, ACF-conversion fodder. IIRC, someone (Bob Rivard?) did some nice SOO cars in this manner, but I don't recall the publication and/or date. Besides, a clutz like me would mangle the nice Kadee car trying to pull this off...

"Also Athearn has that 4-bay quad -- that's ok for B&O ain't it? It would look nice with new wine door locks and wire grabs."

OK for B&O and a few others (which seem to evade Athearn's notes), and it could be kitbashed into a C&O quad with heap shields. Didn't Athearn already do a RTR iteration without the upgrades, and the majority still in foobie roadnames and/or paint schemes?

CJM

--- In STMFC@..., "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> wrote:

I might add, that the pigs would be later remelted to make wrought iron
or steel products.

Aw Garth, you were doing so good until you got to that last paragraph :-)

Wrought iron was never actually liquefied, it was an archaic way of
producing iron from a semi liquid mass of metallic iron and slag, by
hammering (the wrought part) on the plastic mass until the slag had
mostly broken away and the iron consolidated. It has a characteristic
grain formed by slag inclusions that give it its strength. The process
was effectively obsolete by 1900. Things we call "wrought iron" today,
like railings and patio furniture are simply mild steel, crafted in
the style of wrought iron.

Pig iron wouldn't be further refined to steel, either, this was done
as a secondary operation when the iron was still molten from it's
reduction in the blast furnace This was done by blowing air through it
to burn out the carbon, most often using the Bessemer process in our
time period, and the Basic Oxygen process today.

What pig iron was is feedstock for iron foundries. Just as today few
if any plastic injection molders actually polymerize their own
feedstock, instead buying chemically complete material in pellet form
and simply melting it and molding it to shape, most iron foundries
didn't smelt ore for their iron, but rather bought pig iron to melt
and pour into whatever product they made. Back in the era covered by
this list, some major uses would be stoves, car wheels, and machinery
parts, and every manufacturer of these products had a foundry on-site
that would receive car loads of pig iron and coke for fuel. Pig iron
was so heavy and low in value for its weight that it was most often
shipped as heaps of pigs dumped in open tight floor gondolas, to be
unloaded either by a crane with a magnet or by hand, depending on the
size of the operation.

Dennis

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

What exactly is the difference between "pig-iron" and regular iron?. Is one of lower quality than the other?

Garth Groff provided a succinct definition of pig iron from Wikipedia. I hesitated to answer, Shawn, because I had no idea what you meant by "regular iron." <g> There are many products which are made from low-carbon steel but colloquially called "iron," such as angle iron. Like all "regular iron," it is of course nearly all composed of that atom designated "Fe" but has specific qualities which make it a steel.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Liquid chlorine cars, though always ICC-105 high pressure cars, came in a variety of sizes . . . whether it had a dome platform and railing or not, etc.

Richard, that classic MR article is about the kind of car with removable transverse tanks, not a conventional tank car.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

hear hear! :-)

On Mar 26, 2008, at 9:56 AM, lnbill wrote:

About 10 year ago I was able to acquire a photocopy of an L&N freight
car diagram book from Allen Stanley in Greer, SC for the cost of the
copying. Is Allen still around and is he still doing this service? I
am wondering too if he has added to his resources, which were
impressive.

Yes. In fact, he sent an e-mail to the STMFC group last August
offering to exchange diagram books. His e-mail address is
<raildata@...>.

Richard Hendrickson

John Hile wrote:

"More than 95 percent of United States coke is made from coal mined
in the east, midwest, and south. Coking plants are located near
centers of pig-iron production, which are mainly in Pennsylvania,
Illinois, Ohio, New York, Indiana, and Alabama."

While the above information certainly explains the coal shipments to
Fontana, it makes me wonder about those coke shipments to other users
in California.

I have a copy of an early 40's document from the WP President's files that
cites receipt of a couple of carloads of Alabama Coke for use by a central
California Sugar refinery (pure carbon needed for the purification of the
sugar liquor).

So on occasion such materials did travel far afield. Perhaps on some
regular basis. But the volume, when viewed in the grand scheme of things of
Steam Era Railroading, it needs to be understood as a freak event. Having
captured it on film doesn't change that... more likely that image just
documents the freakish nature of what's been seen.

Dave Nelson

About 10 year ago I was able to acquire a photocopy of an L&N freight
car diagram book from Allen Stanley in Greer, SC for the cost of the
copying. Is Allen still around and is he still doing this service? I
am wondering too if he has added to his resources, which were
impressive.

Bill Welch

Hello Fiddler: Chlorine cars are dealt with in Ed Kaminski's book "Tank Cars
ACF" Signature Press 2003. A couple of photos of Hooker cars and a general
arrangement drawing taken from the 1928 Carbuilders Cyclopedia. I'll throw in a
plug for any of the books by Kaminski that I own. ACF Freight Cars, Tank
Cars and Magor Car Company. All great books mainly focused on the steam era. I
have no connection with the author or publisher. Al Campbell



**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Shawn,

Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

*Pig iron* is the intermediate product of smelting <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smelting> steel ore with coke <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_%28fuel%29> and resin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resin>. Pig iron has a very high carbon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon> content, typically 3.5 - 4.5%,^[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron#cite_note-msts-0> which makes it very brittle <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittle> and not useful directly as a material except for limited applications.

The traditional shape of the molds used for these ingots was a branching structure formed in sand <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand>, with many individual ingots at right angles to a central channel or /runner./ Such a configuration is similar in appearance to a litter of piglets <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piglet> suckling on a sow. When the metal had cooled and hardened, the smaller ingots (the /pigs/) were simply broken from the much thinner runner (the /sow/), hence the name /pig iron/. As pig iron is intended for remelting, the uneven size of the ingots and inclusion of small amounts of sand was insignificant compared to the ease of casting and of handling.

I might add, that the pigs would be later remelted to make wrought iron or steel products. If you ever visit Steamtown in Scranton, Pennsylvania, don't miss the adjacent pig iron furnaces, now operated as a local park. The musuem is quite informative.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Beckert, Shawn wrote:

John Hile wrote:

"More than 95 percent of United States coke is made
from coal mined in the east, midwest, and south.
Coking plants are located near centers of pig-iron
production, which are mainly in Pennsylvania,
Illinois, Ohio, New York, Indiana, and Alabama."

What exactly is the difference between "pig-iron" and
regular iron?. Is one of lower quality than the other?

Shawn Beckert

The MDC/Athearn car referrenced is the HO version.... thankfully, although I haven't done a technical prototype analysis of the MDC/Athearn N Scale car, it seems
to have better dimensions, proportions and details than its older, chunky Horribly Oversized brother.
I had MDC do a special run of cars for the Chicago & Illinois Western and the N Scale car appeared to be a good match for that road's cars... the offset taper at
the ends was the same style. The downside to the N MDC cars is, at least in the original kit version, the metal underframe/weight/bolster casting was a poor fit
and fitting trucks and couplers to it was a hassle..... but overall it seems to be a better model than the HO version.
Charlie Vlk