Date   

Re: Car travel

Russ Strodtz <railfreightcars@...>
 

Tony,

Documentary evidence suggests otherwise.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October, 2007 02:00
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Car travel


Russ Strodtz wrote:
Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computer systems?
Like every other kind of accounting, including per diem: clerks with pencils. Well, sometimes even with typewriters. Those clerks just issued MT waybills back to Canada.
Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...


Re: Car travel

michael bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

Would this rule hold true for cars that came from Mexico? And how much traffic did come Mexico in the 40s and 50s?

Michael Bishop

Russ Strodtz <railfreightcars@...> wrote:
Bruce,

Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computer
systems?

Russ

As for Canadian cars, the rules were pretty simple. IIRC, they could
travel to the US with Canadian cargo. They could not, in general,
travel between points in the US with domestic lading. I'm pretty
sure that they could also return to Canada loaded.
Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL





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Re: Car travel

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Russ Strodtz wrote:
Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computer systems?
Like every other kind of accounting, including per diem: clerks with pencils. Well, sometimes even with typewriters. Those clerks just issued MT waybills back to Canada.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Car travel

Russ Strodtz <railfreightcars@...>
 

Bruce,

Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computer
systems?

Russ

As for Canadian cars, the rules were pretty simple. IIRC, they could travel to the US with Canadian cargo. They could not, in general, travel between points in the US with domestic lading. I'm pretty sure that they could also return to Canada loaded.
Regards
Bruce
Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Allen Rueter
 

Blair,
Stan doesn't have internet, kind of like Martin. Stan does answer the phone & smail.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO

----- Original Message ----
From: "bkooistra@..." <bkooistra@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 9:55:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer














Does anyone have an e-mail address for Stan? I'm definately interested in some of these kits, but won't be going to Naperville.



Thanks,



blair kooistra, fort worth, tx



Clark Propst wrote:



Got a call from Stan Rydarowicz last night he said he will have several

mini kits at Naperville for sale of the plug or odd doored PFE and NP

reefers. They will be Intermountain kits with sides laser cut out and

new resin cast replacement sides and or ends, plastic roofs. They will

sell for $25-30.


















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Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

bkooistra@...
 

Does anyone have an e-mail address for Stan? I'm definately interested in some of these kits, but won't be going to Naperville.

Thanks,

blair kooistra, fort worth, tx


Clark Propst wrote:

Got a call from Stan Rydarowicz last night he said he will have several
mini kits at Naperville for sale of the plug or odd doored PFE and NP
reefers. They will be Intermountain kits with sides laser cut out and
new resin cast replacement sides and or ends, plastic roofs. They will
sell for $25-30.


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Well, I must admit I paraphrased the lawyer. He was actually giving simple examples of what sorts of things could and couldn't be copied/distributed legally, not what could be copyrighted.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer


Kurt Laughlin wrote:
As our company's IP attorney explained it: You can't copyright, "It
rained on the evening of October 17th." You CAN copyright, "It was a
dark and stormy night. . ."
You can copyright ANYTHING if it's original, and long enough, and
distinctive enough. Obviously your example, "It rained . . .", even if
included in a famous novel, is not distinctive. But if the following
phrase was, say, "and the vampire Lestat began to roam the city," now
you are in a lot of trouble if you steal all of that sentence, as it is
identifiable.
And as for the "dark and stormy night," it may or may not have
originally been copyrighted, but it was published long enough ago that
it's now in the public domain. But yes, a good example of what you
MIGHT be able to copyright. After all, if it weren't famous, it would
be a great deal like the "It rained . . ." sentence.
As I said already, Tim or anyone is free to use brief quotes
from my books (or for that matter, anyone's books: it's fair use) on
this list or elsewhere.


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Tony Thompson
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
As our company's IP attorney explained it: You can't copyright, "It rained on the evening of October 17th." You CAN copyright, "It was a dark and stormy night. . ."
You can copyright ANYTHING if it's original, and long enough, and distinctive enough. Obviously your example, "It rained . . .", even if included in a famous novel, is not distinctive. But if the following phrase was, say, "and the vampire Lestat began to roam the city," now you are in a lot of trouble if you steal all of that sentence, as it is identifiable.
And as for the "dark and stormy night," it may or may not have originally been copyrighted, but it was published long enough ago that it's now in the public domain. But yes, a good example of what you MIGHT be able to copyright. After all, if it weren't famous, it would be a great deal like the "It rained . . ." sentence.
As I said already, Tim or anyone is free to use brief quotes from my books (or for that matter, anyone's books: it's fair use) on this list or elsewhere.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor

thanks for the informative reply. i would not dare to infringe
on your copyright and repeat the explanation from your book here.

----- Original Message -----

While the extent of text you could post verbatim is arguable, you could still answer the question. To the best of my knowledge you can't copyright facts (even those published in a copyrighted work) so simply stating, "PFE used this configuration to allow easy access for personnel without needing to open the large doors." would not violate Tony's copyright unless those were the exact words he used in his book, or substantially so.

As our company's IP attorney explained it: You can't copyright, "It rained on the evening of October 17th." You CAN copyright, "It was a dark and stormy night. . ."

KL


Re: Car travel

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

> Also: has there ever been lists made of who the various
SHPX/UTLX/GATX
> tanks were leased out to?

Not really. An early issue of the RPC covered the AC&F Type 27 and
has much of that information for that design, and Ed Kaminski's AC&F
tank car book offers a lot of information about original leases.
http://www.signaturepress.com/tank.html
However, tanks moved on and off lease with some frequency, so this
data may not be terribly relevant for your dates.
Bruce is correct, as usual. The tank car leasing companies obviously
kept such records but if any of them have survived, their whereabouts
remain a mystery. Photographic evidence indicates that tank car leases
sometimes lasted for a decade or more but often were much briefer, only
six months or a year. As is often the case, the only sure way to know
is to find photos of cars from the era you're modeling.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Since Tony is apparently not going to tell us the reason for this arrangement, holding us hostage to the cost of his book, I'll give it a guess, which will only cost you 2 cents*.

The arrangement provides a wider opening for easier mechanical loading without a tremendous amount of extra complexity (just three more hinges and an extra door leaf) and no loss in the thickness of the insulation in the door area. Of course, plug doors accomplish the same thing, which is likely why this solution fell out of favor after only a short time.
Pretty good guess, Dennis. But the reason for the three-part door was to enable an inspector to enter the car by just opening one leaf, thus not letting ALL the cold air out at once. PFE had already experimented with plug doors, starting in 1947, and adopted them for its R-40-26 cars in 1949. So the three-leaf door was NOT an effort to solve a problem which could have been addressed by a plug door which they were reluctant to adopt; it was an exploration of an alternate solution. The PFE experiment with this door was in 1954, and was not applied to any production cars; instead, they went to a 4-foot plug door and a 2-foot hinged door (R-40-27) or a 6-foot plug with a 2-foot hinged (R-40-28). NP must have liked the PFE experiment more than PFE did.
All this and more, along with several photos, is in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "cf5250" <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Bob

Here's a shot of the NP reefer that Matt described (the one
I confused with the PFE R-40-28)

http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=26019
Since Tony is apparently not going to tell us the reason for this
arrangement, holding us hostage to the cost of his book, I'll give it
a guess, which will only cost you 2 cents*.

The arrangement provides a wider opening for easier mechanical loading
without a tremendous amount of extra complexity (just three more
hinges and an extra door leaf) and no loss in the thickness of the
insulation in the door area. Of course, plug doors accomplish the same
thing, which is likely why this solution fell out of favor after only
a short time.

Dennis

* Like the IRS, you only have to remit the charge if it is over $1.00.
You have $.98 to go.


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Tim O'Connor
 

Bob Chaparro wrote

I noticed the unusual (to me) door arrangement on the PFE reefer (PFE
11303) pictured on the following link:
http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=26183
Bob

Here's a shot of the NP reefer that Matt described (the one
I confused with the PFE R-40-28)

http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=26019

(I recommend browsing the Rick Morgan collection of that web
site. He's got some nice post-1960 photos in there of steam
era cars.)


Re: Car travel

Bruce Smith
 

On Oct 16, 2007, at 1:19 PM, destron@... wrote:


Bruce and Ben, thanks for the info.

I mentioned the Canadian example mainly because that was the first that
came to mind; I'm actually modeling South Carolina in 1951. However,
wanting to have a few Canadian cars present for the sake of modeling
something 'closer to home: where can I find information regarding the
rules governing international movement of cars?
One of the most interesting sources of documentary information for you might be the photos from the Col. Chet McCoid (sp?) collection (Bob's Photos). Many of these were taken around Ft. Bragg in the early 1950s.

As for Canadian cars, the rules were pretty simple. IIRC, they could travel to the US with Canadian cargo. They could not, in general, travel between points in the US with domestic lading. I'm pretty sure that they could also return to Canada loaded.

Also: has there ever been lists made of who the various SHPX/UTLX/GATX
tanks were leased out to?
Not really. An early issue of the RPC covered the AC&F Type 27 and has much of that information for that design, and Ed Kaminski's AC&F tank car book offers a lot of information about original leases.
http://www.signaturepress.com/tank.html
However, tanks moved on and off lease with some frequency, so this data may not be terribly relevant for your dates.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Car travel

destron@...
 

Bruce and Ben, thanks for the info.

I mentioned the Canadian example mainly because that was the first that
came to mind; I'm actually modeling South Carolina in 1951. However,
wanting to have a few Canadian cars present for the sake of modeling
something 'closer to home: where can I find information regarding the
rules governing international movement of cars?

Also: has there ever been lists made of who the various SHPX/UTLX/GATX
tanks were leased out to?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"I know boxcars got everywhere imaginable - I have a photo from the
early 1960s of a Florida East Coast boxcar behind a BC Hydro Railway
locomotive in New Westminster - but what about other types of cars?
I assume things like ore cars wouldn't venture too far from their
home roads (or perhaps more likely, certain lines on their home
roads). To variegate the rolling stock collection, I'd like to add
non-boxcar types from foreign roads, perhaps distant ones, too, but
am not certain as to what travelled how far from home. Any insight
would be very appreciated."
Ben replied:

Frank, the short answer is as follows:

- Flat cars and gons, though not as plentiful as boxcars, generally
shared similar use patterns with the exception of specially equipped
cars.

- Cars in coal service tended to be limited to specific regions.
Some cars are found far from home, but to far less an extent than
boxcars.
I'll add:
Tank cars - After WWII, most of these were used in the delivery of
refined products or chemicals. Road names were almost exclusively
private and shipments were mostly local to regional.

Stock cars - Depending on the season, these could get quite far from
home. PRR cars on the left coast and UP, ATSF & GN etc on the right
coast were not unheard of. In addition to hauling stock for a
variety of reasons, these were used to haul other cargoes out of season.

Reefers - Again, mostly private. However, these cars traveled
nationwide. Originating roads for cargos often had fairly biased
fleets (e.g. UP and SP almost all PFE, ATSF almost all SFRD) however
terminating roads often had a mix. In addition, related companies
like FGE/WFE/BRE pooled reefers to cover different harvests so you
were likely to see BRE reefers in Georgia and FGE reefers in the
Pacific NW.

You mention a Canadian example - if you are modeling Canada, the
issue is very much more complicated due to the issues of
international travel of cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0





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Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
thanks for the informative reply. i would not dare to infringe on your copyright and repeat the explanation from your book here.
If you're sincere, this is the first time you've worried about copyright <g>. But please, Tim, go ahead. You have my permission to quote briefly from any of my books, provided you give credit to the source.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Frank Fertitta <frank1357@...>
 

I love to read your eloquent, succinct replies!

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
thanks for the informative reply. i would not dare to infringe
on your copyright and repeat the explanation from your book here.

Tim O'Connor, replying to Bob Chaparro, wrote:
PFE and NP bought cars with these combination swing-plug doors -- the
PFE class was R-40-28. Tony Thompson probably can tell you the logic
behind the doors. It was not repeated on subsequent orders.
Yes, I do know the logic, and that's why it's included in the PFE
book.

Tony Thompson


Re: Car travel

Bruce Smith
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"I know boxcars got everywhere imaginable - I have a photo from the
early 1960s of a Florida East Coast boxcar behind a BC Hydro Railway
locomotive in New Westminster - but what about other types of cars?
I assume things like ore cars wouldn't venture too far from their
home roads (or perhaps more likely, certain lines on their home
roads). To variegate the rolling stock collection, I'd like to add
non-boxcar types from foreign roads, perhaps distant ones, too, but
am not certain as to what travelled how far from home. Any insight
would be very appreciated."
Ben replied:

Frank, the short answer is as follows:

- Flat cars and gons, though not as plentiful as boxcars, generally
shared similar use patterns with the exception of specially equipped
cars.

- Cars in coal service tended to be limited to specific regions.
Some cars are found far from home, but to far less an extent than
boxcars.
I'll add:
Tank cars - After WWII, most of these were used in the delivery of refined products or chemicals. Road names were almost exclusively private and shipments were mostly local to regional.

Stock cars - Depending on the season, these could get quite far from home. PRR cars on the left coast and UP, ATSF & GN etc on the right coast were not unheard of. In addition to hauling stock for a variety of reasons, these were used to haul other cargoes out of season.

Reefers - Again, mostly private. However, these cars traveled nationwide. Originating roads for cargos often had fairly biased fleets (e.g. UP and SP almost all PFE, ATSF almost all SFRD) however terminating roads often had a mix. In addition, related companies like FGE/WFE/BRE pooled reefers to cover different harvests so you were likely to see BRE reefers in Georgia and FGE reefers in the Pacific NW.

You mention a Canadian example - if you are modeling Canada, the issue is very much more complicated due to the issues of international travel of cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Car travel

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"I know boxcars got everywhere imaginable - I have a photo from the
early 1960s of a Florida East Coast boxcar behind a BC Hydro Railway
locomotive in New Westminster - but what about other types of cars?
I assume things like ore cars wouldn't venture too far from their
home roads (or perhaps more likely, certain lines on their home
roads). To variegate the rolling stock collection, I'd like to add
non-boxcar types from foreign roads, perhaps distant ones, too, but
am not certain as to what travelled how far from home. Any insight
would be very appreciated."

Frank, the short answer is as follows:

- Flat cars and gons, though not as plentiful as boxcars, generally
shared similar use patterns with the exception of specially equipped
cars.

- Cars in coal service tended to be limited to specific regions.
Some cars are found far from home, but to far less an extent than
boxcars.

These are general guidelines only. For more details, check the
group archives, particularly the posts of Tim Gilbert, who analyzed
this subject at length.


Ben Hom


Re: Door Arrangement On PFE Reefer

Tim O'Connor
 

thanks for the informative reply. i would not dare to infringe
on your copyright and repeat the explanation from your book here.

Tim O'Connor, replying to Bob Chaparro, wrote:
PFE and NP bought cars with these combination swing-plug doors -- the
PFE class was R-40-28. Tony Thompson probably can tell you the logic
behind the doors. It was not repeated on subsequent orders.
Yes, I do know the logic, and that's why it's included in the PFE
book.

Tony Thompson

128741 - 128760 of 195610