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Re: Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

George Simmons
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Sandifer" <steve.sandifer@...>
wrote:

Roads lined the cars with cardboard and used them for grain
movements.
______________
Also, they were used for hauling cantaloupes and possibly other melon
to market.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA
Re: Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

Steve SANDIFER
 

Roads lined the cars with cardboard and used them for grain movements.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: George
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 4:04 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)


Follow up to an earlier post. In one of my videos on the Northern
Pacific (1950's with lots of New York Mills shots) it shows stock
cars with the slats filled with what appears to be unpainted 2x4's or
2x6's. I'd wondered if these were used for winter wheat?
A comment was made earlier about the NP keeping these cars clean
for livestock hauling. Any knowledge of grains being hauled in the
cars? Any other road fill in the slats of stock cars with 2 by's?
Thanks,
George Courtney
Re: 3 dome tank

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Bruce--

A two-or-three-dome resin tank car kit on the shelf? Not likely for
me. I've built two resin tank cars so far, with a third from Norwest
being heavily resin-bashed into a McColl-Frontenac (Texaco of Canada)
car. Bring it on--I bet that I'll find a Canadian or major US car
fleet (UTLX, GATX) prototype to suit it.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Fri, February 1, 2008 10:22 pm, Jon Miller wrote:
OK. Bottom line is I want this car in HO.

Jon Miller
Why?! ;^)

As an AC&F 3-dome (or for that matter any of the other builders)
this is a
relatively rare car and of course, because of the Athearn car, the
3 dome
car is alas, a modeling cliche.

Note that we will shortly have a nicely detailed two dome car from
SC&F.
Of course, as a resin kit, it will likely end up on the shelf next
to many
other resin tank car kits ;^)

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Re: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Rob & Bev Manley
 

Ed,
There is a good photo of a roof in the Mike Spoor / MS book "CB&Q color Guide..." of a CB&Q HC-1B. It's a Paul Winters on page 82.
In the Burlington Buletin No.20 ( Covered Hoppers) also has 3 photos. 1 is from Rod (Bat) Masterson pp 8 and 2 are Hol Wagner's pp18.

The earliest cars were built at Galesburg with welded roof panels. That series was 180000 - 180099. The balance of the ACF cars had the desired ribbed roof.

Thanks for keeping them honest. We modelers appreciate all youe work.

Sicerely,
Rob Manley

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Hawkins
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs



On Feb 2, 2008, at 3:09 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

> Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead
> (Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps
> that were found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft
> covered hoppers. If anyone has good photos (I just ran across
> a nice CB&Q example in the MS ATSF Color Guide p.97) of those
> roofs I think Frank would like to see them. We might finally
> get a correct ACF roof for a number of owners.

Tim,
Frank generally doesn't know anything (or even care) about the freight
cars InterMoutain produces. Nearly 3 years ago (just prior to Marty
McGuirk's departure), I sent InterMountain an entire set of AC&F
construction drawings for this car. Included were drawings of various
hatch configurations, different side variations (i.e., open or closed
sides), and two primary roof arrangements (flat roof and roof with seam
caps).

I was happy to hear that test shots were shown at Cocoa Beach. I have
asked (more like begged & pleaded) the production manager at
InterMountain for the opportunity to review the test shots for accuracy
prior to their decision to go into full production. Whether they will
take my offer or not remains unknown to me. All I want is the chance to
review them, and if there are any significant errors, to have them be
aware before going into full production (basically to obviate a
replication of the PFE R-40-10 debacle).

I have provided InterMountain with as much of a complete roster of
these cars that I can compile based on available data and photographs.
I have also encouraged them to consider at least three hatch
arrangements, two roof arrangements, and of course the open and closed
side arrangements. This is in addition to other details such as locking
bar variations. The open/closed sides option appears to be part of
their planning, but so far I have been led to believe there's only the
flat roof and one hatch arrangement being planned. Perhaps this can be
changed to include other variations. I have also offered to assist them
with painting specs (to the extent this data is available) on these
cars as well offering photos to help with the decoration.

On occasion I will call the production manager for an update on the ART
reefer project, which continues to languish with unending delays to
receive an assembled & decorated pilot model of the 1950 scheme. While
I have not yet received a definitive answer to when the ART "phase II"
project will commence, I've used the opportunity to ask for updates on
the 1,958 c.f. covered hopper project and to continue to remind them of
my voluntary offer to review the test shots before the production
decision is made.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
Re: Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

Mark
 

The PRR hauled bricks on pallets in there stockcars!

Mark Morgan



--- George <gsc3@...> wrote:

Follow up to an earlier post. In one of my videos
on the Northern
Pacific (1950's with lots of New York Mills shots)
it shows stock
cars with the slats filled with what appears to be
unpainted 2x4's or
2x6's. I'd wondered if these were used for winter
wheat?
A comment was made earlier about the NP keeping
these cars clean
for livestock hauling. Any knowledge of grains
being hauled in the
cars? Any other road fill in the slats of stock
cars with 2 by's?
Thanks,
George Courtney



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Re: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Ed Hawkins
 

On Feb 2, 2008, at 3:09 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead
(Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps
that were found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft
covered hoppers. If anyone has good photos (I just ran across
a nice CB&Q example in the MS ATSF Color Guide p.97) of those
roofs I think Frank would like to see them. We might finally
get a correct ACF roof for a number of owners.
Tim,
Frank generally doesn't know anything (or even care) about the freight
cars InterMoutain produces. Nearly 3 years ago (just prior to Marty
McGuirk's departure), I sent InterMountain an entire set of AC&F
construction drawings for this car. Included were drawings of various
hatch configurations, different side variations (i.e., open or closed
sides), and two primary roof arrangements (flat roof and roof with seam
caps).

I was happy to hear that test shots were shown at Cocoa Beach. I have
asked (more like begged & pleaded) the production manager at
InterMountain for the opportunity to review the test shots for accuracy
prior to their decision to go into full production. Whether they will
take my offer or not remains unknown to me. All I want is the chance to
review them, and if there are any significant errors, to have them be
aware before going into full production (basically to obviate a
replication of the PFE R-40-10 debacle).

I have provided InterMountain with as much of a complete roster of
these cars that I can compile based on available data and photographs.
I have also encouraged them to consider at least three hatch
arrangements, two roof arrangements, and of course the open and closed
side arrangements. This is in addition to other details such as locking
bar variations. The open/closed sides option appears to be part of
their planning, but so far I have been led to believe there's only the
flat roof and one hatch arrangement being planned. Perhaps this can be
changed to include other variations. I have also offered to assist them
with painting specs (to the extent this data is available) on these
cars as well offering photos to help with the decoration.

On occasion I will call the production manager for an update on the ART
reefer project, which continues to languish with unending delays to
receive an assembled & decorated pilot model of the 1950 scheme. While
I have not yet received a definitive answer to when the ART "phase II"
project will commence, I've used the opportunity to ask for updates on
the 1,958 c.f. covered hopper project and to continue to remind them of
my voluntary offer to review the test shots before the production
decision is made.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

George Courtney
 

Follow up to an earlier post. In one of my videos on the Northern
Pacific (1950's with lots of New York Mills shots) it shows stock
cars with the slats filled with what appears to be unpainted 2x4's or
2x6's. I'd wondered if these were used for winter wheat?
A comment was made earlier about the NP keeping these cars clean
for livestock hauling. Any knowledge of grains being hauled in the
cars? Any other road fill in the slats of stock cars with 2 by's?
Thanks,
George Courtney
Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

George Courtney
 

Follow up to an earlier post. In one of my videos on the Northern
Pacific (1950's with lots of New York Mills shots) it shows stock
cars with the slats filled with what appears to be unpainted 2x4's or
2x6's. I'd wondered if these were used for winter wheat?
A comment was made earlier about the NP keeping these cars clean
for livestock hauling. Any knowledge of grains being hauled in the
cars? Any other road fill in the slats of stock cars with 2 by's?
Thanks,
George Courtney
Re: Weather Freight Cars

leakinmywaders
 

--- In STMFC@..., LOUIS WHITELEY <octoraro1@...> wrote:

Not that it would be visible in HO, but (how) should the inside of
stock cars be painted/weathered?

Lou Whiteley
Lawrenceville, NJ
Lou, I asked this some years ago on another list with regard to NP's
wooden-side stock cars, and Matt Herson sent a couple of scans of rare
interior photos that I believe Rufus Cone had collected (NP 82741 when
new in 1936). The interiors of the side slats floors, doors and roof
panels of these cars were unpainted, or possibly finished with an
unpigmented oil. Only the structural members running the length of
the tops of the carsides behind the fascia appear to have been
painted, and the roof trusses. An interior car number was stenciled in
white over one door opening. The photos are black and white, so the
color of the painted members is uncertain, but it looks like it could
be fresh oxide red (but can't rule out black).

Of course, other roads may have done things differently...

Given the use and cleaning regime I imagine the interior weathered to
silver gray, with the floor of course going darker and browner from
ground-in waste, grime,and straw dust. One can speculate the lower
slats might show some heavier bleaching and scale deposits on their
interior faces from lime treatment, plus the effects of kicking and
rubbing by the guests they confined. I can echo Richard's observation
that photos show that NP stock cars, when in consistent use for stock
shipping, appeared quite clean. They actually got dirtier when
relegated to hay shipping or MofW service.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT
Re: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

I figure this may be our last chance (in our lifetimes) to
get this model done right in HO scale... Of course Sunshine
still makes a mini-kit for these roofs so at least resin
modelers can get around the problem.

Tim O'

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead
(Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps that were
found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft covered hoppers.
The list of what Frank Angstead does not know about railroads
generally and about freight cars in particular would be a long one <g>,
but Tim's suggestion to provide prototype information to InterMountain
is a good one. The more information they have, the more information
that might possibly some day affect their products.

Tony Thompson
Re: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead (Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps that were found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft covered hoppers.
The list of what Frank Angstead does not know about railroads generally and about freight cars in particular would be a long one <g>, but Tim's suggestion to provide prototype information to InterMountain is a good one. The more information they have, the more information that might possibly some day affect their products.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Tim O'Connor
 

Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead
(Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps
that were found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft
covered hoppers. If anyone has good photos (I just ran across
a nice CB&Q example in the MS ATSF Color Guide p.97) of those
roofs I think Frank would like to see them. We might finally
get a correct ACF roof for a number of owners.

Tim O'Connor
Re: Jack Delano color photos

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:02 AM, proto48er wrote:

Richard -

I wonder if the backgrounds in your Maxwell photos look correct from
a color perspective. To me, many of the Delano photos seem to have a
color shift in the background which seems to be darker than normal.
Could this be due to the use of the early Kodachrome films? Some of
his shots in the Rockies have the background mountains looking not at
all like what I have seen on location. Surely soot from locomotives
could not have darkened snow on mountains in the distant background
to such a degree. The skies are also much deeper, darker blues. I
wonder if some of this is darkroom "art" on the part of Delano. I
wonder whether he developed his transparencies in a way that
accentuated their artistic (as opposed to realistic) qualities, like
Ansel Adams did with B&W prints.
[snip]

Just wondering what the Maxwell photos show. Different photographer,
different developing regimen??
Actually, the color in the Maxwell slides seems very accurate to me.
These transparencies were shot on early ASA 10 Kodachrome and processed
by Technicolor in Hollywood; in 1941 local color processing was
nonexistent, and Technicolor worked to the highest professional
standards - their primary business was, after all, processing motion
picture film. Jack's exposures were excellent and he stored his
originals very carefully; I see no evidence in my copies of color
shift. I will add that, unlike many subscribers to this list, I spent
a lot of time hanging around railroads and rail yards in the 1940s
where the freight cars were every bit as grimy as shown in Delano's
photos.

To the terminological quibble raised by Mike Brock and others that the
steam era extended into the 1950s, when there were many more new or
repainted cars and the advent of diesels rendered the environment less
dirty, I will just say that I do, in fact, consider the '50s the
transition era, as Mike suggested. On the railroad I model, steam was
still prevalent almost everywhere in the late 1940s but was largely
gone by 1952-'53 and entirely gone by '55.

The point I keep trying to make about weathering freight car models is
that conditions on the prototype changed over time, sometimes quite a
bit over relatively short spans of time. Hence large scale
generalizations are misleading, especially when based on evidence from
later periods. Realistic aging and weathering for the late 1950s and
later is absolutely wrong for the 1930s and '40s (and, to some extent,
the early 1950s).

Richard Hendrickson
Re: 3 dome tank

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Why?! ;^)<
Because I like multi-dome tank cars. Because there are none (correctly done, not brass) currently on the market. I will buy Jon's (neat name huh!) when it's done. I would prefer one (plastic) with different domes but that's an additional manufacturing cost (mold work) so the Micro-Trains one would be acceptable.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS
Re: shelving resin tank car kits/was 3 dome

Jon Cagle <jscagle@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

"As an AC&F 3-dome (or for that matter any of the other builders) this is arelatively rare car and of course, because of the Athearn car, the 3 domecar is alas, a modeling cliche.Note that we will shortly have a nicely detailed two dome car from SC&F. Of course, as a resin kit, it will likely end up on the shelf next to manyother resin tank car kits ;^)Bruce SmithAuburn, AL"

Bruce,

did you not see how easy this kit is going to be to build? It has a one piece cast frame! How much more do you want from me? OH THE HUMANITY!!!!

jon


To: STMFC@...: smithbf@...: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 12:56:21 -0600Subject: Re: [STMFC] 3 dome tank




On Fri, February 1, 2008 10:22 pm, Jon Miller wrote:> OK. Bottom line is I want this car in HO.>> Jon MillerWhy?! ;^)As an AC&F 3-dome (or for that matter any of the other builders) this is arelatively rare car and of course, because of the Athearn car, the 3 domecar is alas, a modeling cliche.Note that we will shortly have a nicely detailed two dome car from SC&F. Of course, as a resin kit, it will likely end up on the shelf next to manyother resin tank car kits ;^)Bruce SmithAuburn, AL
Re: Freight car weathering [Was: Jack Delano color photos]

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Well, that's not surprising as there were only 14-15,000 printed. You can try www.railpub.com who had it for $6 + shipping in their last flyer (1/1/08) or Ebay, which is where I got mine. Be advised there was a follow-up article in the June 1997 issue.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rast
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight car weathering [Was: Jack Delano color photos]


I just checked the RMJ website and December 1995 is NOT available.
Any suggestions on how to obtain Richard's article?
Re: 3 dome tank

Andy Carlson
 

Rare is dependent on what route it is travelling. I give an example:

The Ojai Branch of the SP (Southern California) had 5 bulk oil distributors and an orange packing plant served by the RR at the end of the line. Since small oil distributors sold several products (kerosene, 2 grades of auto fuel) it was economical to ship in multiple compartment tank cars when a full car load would be excessive. So on the Ojai branch 2 and 3 compartment tank cars were quite common. Out on the coast line, though, these cars would be overwhelmed by the large numbers of single compartment tank cars.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote: On Fri, February 1, 2008 10:22 pm, Jon Miller wrote:
> OK. Bottom line is I want this car in HO.
>
> Jon Miller

Why?! ;^)

As an AC&F 3-dome (or for that matter any of the other builders) this is a
relatively rare car and of course, because of the Athearn car, the 3 dome
car is alas, a modeling cliche.

Note that we will shortly have a nicely detailed two dome car from SC&F.
Of course, as a resin kit, it will likely end up on the shelf next to many
other resin tank car kits ;^)

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Re: 3 dome tank

Bruce Smith
 

On Fri, February 1, 2008 10:22 pm, Jon Miller wrote:
OK. Bottom line is I want this car in HO.

Jon Miller
Why?! ;^)

As an AC&F 3-dome (or for that matter any of the other builders) this is a
relatively rare car and of course, because of the Athearn car, the 3 dome
car is alas, a modeling cliche.

Note that we will shortly have a nicely detailed two dome car from SC&F.
Of course, as a resin kit, it will likely end up on the shelf next to many
other resin tank car kits ;^)

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Re: Freight car weathering [Was: Jack Delano color photos]

Lawrence Rast
 

I just checked the RMJ website and December 1995 is NOT available.
Any suggestions on how to obtain Richard's article?

Best,
Lawrence Rast

On Jan 30, 2008 8:10 PM, Gene Green <bierglaeser@...> wrote:




I must find a copy of Richard Hendrickson's article "Vintage-Dating
Freight Cars With Weathering" in the December 1995 Railmodel Journal.
Thnks and a tip of the hat to Ben Hom for that bit of information.

Have any of the heavy weatherers on this list (just 3 of you?)
experienced any difficulty reading car numbers during an operating
session?

Gene Green
Re: Weathering techniques

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jack Burgess wrote:
(I also don't see evidence of the rust problems on freight cars of our era compared to current-day freight cars, either due to the premature failure of the paint which is designed to protect the metal and/or lack of scheduled repainting of current-day freight cars.)
This is an important point Jack is making, particularly with regard to roofs. I have seen steam-era models whose roof treatments echo contemporary paint failure and galvanized failure, with large rust patches on each roof panel. This is indeed readily seen today, but is rare to nonexistent in pre-1950 photographs (to echo Mike Brock's comment about the "true" steam era). Paint failure to reveal galvanizing underneath, yes, to some extent, but heavy rust on roof panels, no.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
129001 - 129020 of 198533