Date   

Re: IMRC R-40-10 : What's wrong with it? WAS: IMWX

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Poop.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Hawkins

The original version of the InterMountain (not IMWX) . . .


Re: IMWX R-40-10 : What's wrong with it?

Tim O'Connor
 

IRC and Red Caboose have had problems with reefers.

IRC R-40-23, first and best of IRC's own efforts (and done
very quickly to put the kabosh on Porter's HO R-40-23
although PRS brought out Porter's S-scale version)
IRC SFRD reefers (Longs), another good job
IRC R-40-10, messed up and reissued as the Premium version,
ironic because IRC's first reefer was O scale R-40-10
IRC R-40-25 (Amarillo) required re-tooled roofs, but ends
made specifically for this model are still wrong
IRC ART steel reefers -- Ed has documented the history of
this project that took years to straighten out and
meanwhile IRC released inaccurate tooling in non-ART
paint schemes (I think Amarillo sponsored these too)
IRC FGE reefers -- experts like Bill Welch have expressed
disappointment in these models

RC R-30-9 real screwup, first car was an incorrect R-30-12
(shorter than R-30-9) that was revised, and finally a
new R-30-9 was tooled. But many incorrects kits made
it out the door. But at least now we have ok R-30-12
and R-30-9 plastic kits (although Sunshine masters by
Frank Hodina are much better)

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the RC HO R-70-15...

Tim O'Connor

Kurt,

The original version of the InterMountain (not IMWX) R-40-10 HO-scale
model was distributed to hobby dealers without having been reviewed by
persons knowledgeable of the prototype car. Suffice it to say to stay
away from any R-40-10 kits that don't say "Premium Line" on the box
label. The "Premium Line" kits cost more, but they are the retooled
version that corrected a number of "issues" that were inherent with the
original tooling. It's possible that all of the non-Premium Line kits
were recalled. This debacle, as I called it, caused InterMountain extra
work and cost that was completely avoidable had they performed one
extra step in their production process. However, I won't dwell on this
since company policies and practices are out of scope of this forum.
What isn't out of scope was the fact that the original R-40-10 models
were substandard. Perhaps Tony will offer his perspective.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: IMWX R-40-10 : What's wrong with it? WAS: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Ed Hawkins
 

On Feb 3, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

As referenced below.
KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Hawkins

. . . All I want is the chance to
review them, and if there are any significant errors, to have them be
aware before going into full production (basically to obviate a
replication of the PFE R-40-10 debacle). . .
Kurt,
The original version of the InterMountain (not IMWX) R-40-10 HO-scale
model was distributed to hobby dealers without having been reviewed by
persons knowledgeable of the prototype car. Suffice it to say to stay
away from any R-40-10 kits that don't say "Premium Line" on the box
label. The "Premium Line" kits cost more, but they are the retooled
version that corrected a number of "issues" that were inherent with the
original tooling. It's possible that all of the non-Premium Line kits
were recalled. This debacle, as I called it, caused InterMountain extra
work and cost that was completely avoidable had they performed one
extra step in their production process. However, I won't dwell on this
since company policies and practices are out of scope of this forum.
What isn't out of scope was the fact that the original R-40-10 models
were substandard. Perhaps Tony will offer his perspective.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


IMWX R-40-10 : What's wrong with it? WAS: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

As referenced below.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Hawkins

. . . All I want is the chance to review them, and if there are any significant errors, to have them be aware before going into full production (basically to obviate a replication of the PFE R-40-10 debacle). . .


Delano photos. Hopefully not OT.

boomer44 <boomer44@...>
 

A.T.

In regards to Delano "darkroom art" I don't think this would be the case. I live and worked in Rochester, NY at the home of the "Yellow Box". Kodachrome processing is quite technical requiring exact temperatures and timing also to include an "exposure" of the film. This is beyond the capabilities of any home user and any but the largest processing labs even today. At the time of the Delano photos I believe only Kodak could process Kodachrome. I see by what others have written here I should include Technicolor as well. Kodachrome is the most stable of all transparency films.

You can manipulate the exposure in the camera to lighten or darken the overall color rendition of the picture. Delano could have done this to enhance the color saturation in his photos. National Geographic is famous for doing this. That is why their magazine photos have such intense color. When you shoot a transparency what you see is pretty much what you get.

I also thought his photos appeared somewhat dark myself. Then "click" went off in my head. When we look at the Delano photos here we are viewing them as opaque prints and not as transparencies. This might help explain why they appear dark. Compare his B&W to Kodachrome photos for their "darkness" if you will. If he is consistent across the board then you have your answer.

I was struck by the overall grimy appearance of the cars. If there was rust, there must have been some ala the X-29 patch jobs, it would be hard to see.

Gordon Spalty


Re: Uploaded file regarding scale dimensions

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Nice work, Schuyler. Good to see this formalized. I design in 1:1 and,
for HO, have always used a scaling factor of 1:87.1 That gives a scale
50' dimension as 6.8886337" which is identical to yours to three
decimal places.

Lest anyone say "what difference does all this make", I have a test
shot of Don Valentine's Fowler boxcar body that is significantly
undersize because the inexperienced toolmaker thought the third and
fourth decimal places were unnecessary.

Tom Madden


Uploaded file regarding scale dimensions

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Having known for some time that 1:87 isn't really on the money, a friend's asking me about that
motivated me to do the real calculations on 3.5mm = 1'-0". Just how does that work out?

The answer is in the file I just uploaded to the STMFC Files section, which is listed as:

"Proper HO scale factor.xls"

There are two sheets. The first sheet gives the background of developing the factors involved. The
second page is a handy chart with all the equivalents in decimal inch form for use with micrometers,
which I know many of us use. Since these are available now for around $20-25 for acceptably
accurate examples, I think many more people will be using them soon. If the page formatting I
assigned to the second sheet holds through the whole upload-to-Yahoo-Files-pages process, then it
should print on one page, centered on the sheet.

Disclaimer: I believe this to be accurate all the way through. In spited of using Excel, there was
some manual entry on this thing. If anyone notes an error, please advise and it'll be fixed.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Proper HO scale factor.xls
Uploaded by : angus502001 <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Description : Correct HO scale factor and Table of Dimensional equivalents

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Proper%20HO%20scale%20factor.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

angus502001 <schuyler.larrabee@...>


Re: Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

George Simmons
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Sandifer" <steve.sandifer@...>
wrote:

Roads lined the cars with cardboard and used them for grain
movements.
______________
Also, they were used for hauling cantaloupes and possibly other melon
to market.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA


Re: Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

Steve SANDIFER
 

Roads lined the cars with cardboard and used them for grain movements.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: George
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 4:04 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)


Follow up to an earlier post. In one of my videos on the Northern
Pacific (1950's with lots of New York Mills shots) it shows stock
cars with the slats filled with what appears to be unpainted 2x4's or
2x6's. I'd wondered if these were used for winter wheat?
A comment was made earlier about the NP keeping these cars clean
for livestock hauling. Any knowledge of grains being hauled in the
cars? Any other road fill in the slats of stock cars with 2 by's?
Thanks,
George Courtney


Re: 3 dome tank

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Bruce--

A two-or-three-dome resin tank car kit on the shelf? Not likely for
me. I've built two resin tank cars so far, with a third from Norwest
being heavily resin-bashed into a McColl-Frontenac (Texaco of Canada)
car. Bring it on--I bet that I'll find a Canadian or major US car
fleet (UTLX, GATX) prototype to suit it.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Fri, February 1, 2008 10:22 pm, Jon Miller wrote:
OK. Bottom line is I want this car in HO.

Jon Miller
Why?! ;^)

As an AC&F 3-dome (or for that matter any of the other builders)
this is a
relatively rare car and of course, because of the Athearn car, the
3 dome
car is alas, a modeling cliche.

Note that we will shortly have a nicely detailed two dome car from
SC&F.
Of course, as a resin kit, it will likely end up on the shelf next
to many
other resin tank car kits ;^)

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Rob & Bev Manley
 

Ed,
There is a good photo of a roof in the Mike Spoor / MS book "CB&Q color Guide..." of a CB&Q HC-1B. It's a Paul Winters on page 82.
In the Burlington Buletin No.20 ( Covered Hoppers) also has 3 photos. 1 is from Rod (Bat) Masterson pp 8 and 2 are Hol Wagner's pp18.

The earliest cars were built at Galesburg with welded roof panels. That series was 180000 - 180099. The balance of the ACF cars had the desired ribbed roof.

Thanks for keeping them honest. We modelers appreciate all youe work.

Sicerely,
Rob Manley

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Hawkins
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs



On Feb 2, 2008, at 3:09 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

> Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead
> (Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps
> that were found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft
> covered hoppers. If anyone has good photos (I just ran across
> a nice CB&Q example in the MS ATSF Color Guide p.97) of those
> roofs I think Frank would like to see them. We might finally
> get a correct ACF roof for a number of owners.

Tim,
Frank generally doesn't know anything (or even care) about the freight
cars InterMoutain produces. Nearly 3 years ago (just prior to Marty
McGuirk's departure), I sent InterMountain an entire set of AC&F
construction drawings for this car. Included were drawings of various
hatch configurations, different side variations (i.e., open or closed
sides), and two primary roof arrangements (flat roof and roof with seam
caps).

I was happy to hear that test shots were shown at Cocoa Beach. I have
asked (more like begged & pleaded) the production manager at
InterMountain for the opportunity to review the test shots for accuracy
prior to their decision to go into full production. Whether they will
take my offer or not remains unknown to me. All I want is the chance to
review them, and if there are any significant errors, to have them be
aware before going into full production (basically to obviate a
replication of the PFE R-40-10 debacle).

I have provided InterMountain with as much of a complete roster of
these cars that I can compile based on available data and photographs.
I have also encouraged them to consider at least three hatch
arrangements, two roof arrangements, and of course the open and closed
side arrangements. This is in addition to other details such as locking
bar variations. The open/closed sides option appears to be part of
their planning, but so far I have been led to believe there's only the
flat roof and one hatch arrangement being planned. Perhaps this can be
changed to include other variations. I have also offered to assist them
with painting specs (to the extent this data is available) on these
cars as well offering photos to help with the decoration.

On occasion I will call the production manager for an update on the ART
reefer project, which continues to languish with unending delays to
receive an assembled & decorated pilot model of the 1950 scheme. While
I have not yet received a definitive answer to when the ART "phase II"
project will commence, I've used the opportunity to ask for updates on
the 1,958 c.f. covered hopper project and to continue to remind them of
my voluntary offer to review the test shots before the production
decision is made.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

Mark
 

The PRR hauled bricks on pallets in there stockcars!

Mark Morgan



--- George <gsc3@...> wrote:

Follow up to an earlier post. In one of my videos
on the Northern
Pacific (1950's with lots of New York Mills shots)
it shows stock
cars with the slats filled with what appears to be
unpainted 2x4's or
2x6's. I'd wondered if these were used for winter
wheat?
A comment was made earlier about the NP keeping
these cars clean
for livestock hauling. Any knowledge of grains
being hauled in the
cars? Any other road fill in the slats of stock
cars with 2 by's?
Thanks,
George Courtney



____________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Ed Hawkins
 

On Feb 2, 2008, at 3:09 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead
(Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps
that were found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft
covered hoppers. If anyone has good photos (I just ran across
a nice CB&Q example in the MS ATSF Color Guide p.97) of those
roofs I think Frank would like to see them. We might finally
get a correct ACF roof for a number of owners.
Tim,
Frank generally doesn't know anything (or even care) about the freight
cars InterMoutain produces. Nearly 3 years ago (just prior to Marty
McGuirk's departure), I sent InterMountain an entire set of AC&F
construction drawings for this car. Included were drawings of various
hatch configurations, different side variations (i.e., open or closed
sides), and two primary roof arrangements (flat roof and roof with seam
caps).

I was happy to hear that test shots were shown at Cocoa Beach. I have
asked (more like begged & pleaded) the production manager at
InterMountain for the opportunity to review the test shots for accuracy
prior to their decision to go into full production. Whether they will
take my offer or not remains unknown to me. All I want is the chance to
review them, and if there are any significant errors, to have them be
aware before going into full production (basically to obviate a
replication of the PFE R-40-10 debacle).

I have provided InterMountain with as much of a complete roster of
these cars that I can compile based on available data and photographs.
I have also encouraged them to consider at least three hatch
arrangements, two roof arrangements, and of course the open and closed
side arrangements. This is in addition to other details such as locking
bar variations. The open/closed sides option appears to be part of
their planning, but so far I have been led to believe there's only the
flat roof and one hatch arrangement being planned. Perhaps this can be
changed to include other variations. I have also offered to assist them
with painting specs (to the extent this data is available) on these
cars as well offering photos to help with the decoration.

On occasion I will call the production manager for an update on the ART
reefer project, which continues to languish with unending delays to
receive an assembled & decorated pilot model of the 1950 scheme. While
I have not yet received a definitive answer to when the ART "phase II"
project will commence, I've used the opportunity to ask for updates on
the 1,958 c.f. covered hopper project and to continue to remind them of
my voluntary offer to review the test shots before the production
decision is made.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

George Courtney
 

Follow up to an earlier post. In one of my videos on the Northern
Pacific (1950's with lots of New York Mills shots) it shows stock
cars with the slats filled with what appears to be unpainted 2x4's or
2x6's. I'd wondered if these were used for winter wheat?
A comment was made earlier about the NP keeping these cars clean
for livestock hauling. Any knowledge of grains being hauled in the
cars? Any other road fill in the slats of stock cars with 2 by's?
Thanks,
George Courtney


Northern Pacific stock car(was weathering)

George Courtney
 

Follow up to an earlier post. In one of my videos on the Northern
Pacific (1950's with lots of New York Mills shots) it shows stock
cars with the slats filled with what appears to be unpainted 2x4's or
2x6's. I'd wondered if these were used for winter wheat?
A comment was made earlier about the NP keeping these cars clean
for livestock hauling. Any knowledge of grains being hauled in the
cars? Any other road fill in the slats of stock cars with 2 by's?
Thanks,
George Courtney


Re: Weather Freight Cars

leakinmywaders
 

--- In STMFC@..., LOUIS WHITELEY <octoraro1@...> wrote:

Not that it would be visible in HO, but (how) should the inside of
stock cars be painted/weathered?

Lou Whiteley
Lawrenceville, NJ
Lou, I asked this some years ago on another list with regard to NP's
wooden-side stock cars, and Matt Herson sent a couple of scans of rare
interior photos that I believe Rufus Cone had collected (NP 82741 when
new in 1936). The interiors of the side slats floors, doors and roof
panels of these cars were unpainted, or possibly finished with an
unpigmented oil. Only the structural members running the length of
the tops of the carsides behind the fascia appear to have been
painted, and the roof trusses. An interior car number was stenciled in
white over one door opening. The photos are black and white, so the
color of the painted members is uncertain, but it looks like it could
be fresh oxide red (but can't rule out black).

Of course, other roads may have done things differently...

Given the use and cleaning regime I imagine the interior weathered to
silver gray, with the floor of course going darker and browner from
ground-in waste, grime,and straw dust. One can speculate the lower
slats might show some heavier bleaching and scale deposits on their
interior faces from lime treatment, plus the effects of kicking and
rubbing by the guests they confined. I can echo Richard's observation
that photos show that NP stock cars, when in consistent use for stock
shipping, appeared quite clean. They actually got dirtier when
relegated to hay shipping or MofW service.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT


Re: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

I figure this may be our last chance (in our lifetimes) to
get this model done right in HO scale... Of course Sunshine
still makes a mini-kit for these roofs so at least resin
modelers can get around the problem.

Tim O'

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead
(Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps that were
found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft covered hoppers.
The list of what Frank Angstead does not know about railroads
generally and about freight cars in particular would be a long one <g>,
but Tim's suggestion to provide prototype information to InterMountain
is a good one. The more information they have, the more information
that might possibly some day affect their products.

Tony Thompson


Re: ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead (Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps that were found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft covered hoppers.
The list of what Frank Angstead does not know about railroads generally and about freight cars in particular would be a long one <g>, but Tim's suggestion to provide prototype information to InterMountain is a good one. The more information they have, the more information that might possibly some day affect their products.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


ACF 1958cft covered hopper roofs

Tim O'Connor
 

Before I forget, I thought I would mention that Frank Angtead
(Intermountain) did not know about the roofs with seam caps
that were found on CB&Q, AT&SF and other owners ACF 1958cft
covered hoppers. If anyone has good photos (I just ran across
a nice CB&Q example in the MS ATSF Color Guide p.97) of those
roofs I think Frank would like to see them. We might finally
get a correct ACF roof for a number of owners.

Tim O'Connor