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Re: Accurail SS boxcars with fishbelly frame

Jonathan Grant <jonagrant@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "rwitt_2000" <rmwitt@...> wrote:
I assume this is the long out-of-production resin kit?

Yes Bob.

It amazes me what turns up at swapmeets over here in England. The
Autocar was still in kit form in the original box. I think the original
buyer had done nothing more than open the box (and bend the decal
sheet). Still, good news for me.

Jon


Re: Jack Delano color photos

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Tim asked:
Didn't Pullman cover most paint with "varnish" as a clear coat? So
not only is the paint important, but perhaps the finish clear coats
also changed and would that affect how frequently passenger cars
were repainted? In addition passenger cars were washed frequently
(while freight cars were almost never washed) and so the effects of
brushes, detergents and abrasion would be significant for passenger
cars.
I guess I was thinking of the Imron epoxy "paints" applied to
excursion locos today, which appear to be so glossy (and retain that
gloss) that any cruds landing on the surface would have a hard time
staying there. That's an entirely different surface than you'd get
with pre-1950 paints. Any sort of gloss finish on those paints,
whether from an extra layer of varnish or leveling agents in the
paint, would break down relatively quickly, leaving a rough(er)
surface on which contaminants would readily stick. Pullman had to
apply the varnish coat fairly frequently to keep their cars looking
fresh.

On the other hand, passenger cars probably didn't have standing
piles of crud on their roofs with acidic compounds that ran down
the car sides for days and weeks on end. (Coal smoke was full of
sulfur componds for example.)
Indeed. As has been pointed out many times, Eastern weathering is
corrosion-based (rain, soot and the general acidity of the
environment) while Western weathering tends to be abrasion-based
(wind, sun and blowing sand/dirt). Eastern lawn care requires the
generous and frequent application of lime to reduce the acidity of
the soil. When we moved from New Jersey to Colorado in 1970 I went to
a garden center to pick up some lime to spread on the lawn, and they
just laughed at me! Soils are very alkaline out here.

Tom Madden


Re: Freight car weathering [Was: Jack Delano color photos]

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

As a reminder to folks who are new to this list or may have missed it
the first time, Richard Hendrickson's article "Vintage-Dating Freight
Cars With Weathering" published in the December 1995 issue of
Railmodel Journal is a must read for anyone wanting to understand more
about how a systematic approach to weathering helps to effectively
recreate a given time on your layout.


Ben Hom


Re: Jack Delano color photos

Tim O'Connor
 

Tom

Didn't Pullman cover most paint with "varnish" as a clear coat? So
not only is the paint important, but perhaps the finish clear coats also
changed and would that affect how frequently passenger cars were
repainted? In addition passenger cars were washed frequently (while
freight cars were almost never washed) and so the effects of brushes,
detergents and abrasion would be significant for passenger cars. On
the other hand, passenger cars probably didn't have standing piles of
crud on their roofs with acidic compounds that ran down the car sides
for days and weeks on end. (Coal smoke was full of sulfur componds
for example.)

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Tom Madden" <tgmadden@...>
Wouldn't the roughness of the painted surfaces have a lot to do with
how "weathered" a car looked? Pullman, in its glory days, repainted its
cars every couple of years. That tells me the glossy surface finishes
of the steam era broke down relatively quickly. Having done a few
(well, more than a few) bad airbrush jobs where the paint went on too
dry, I can certainly see how a rough painted surface would hold soot
and general grime much more readily than a smooth finish. The phasing
out of steam locomotives and the phasing in of synthetic paints (were
they concurrent?) would certainly have changed weathering patterns.

Just a random thought.

Tom Madden


Re: GN plywood side box car

Andy Carlson
 

GN also had composite doors built by Superior. These doors shared the height dimensions with the other Superior doors, the 7 panel with a short top panel. The Youngstown composite doors shared the increased height of the all-steel Youngstown doors, both pre-war and later. The Youngstown doors were all taller doors than any of the Superiors.

I have a scanned photo from Hickcock's Morning Sun GN Color Guide which show the composite Superior door, and if anyone wants to look at this scan, send me an off-list email requesting it. <midcentury@...>

Regards,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote: On Jan 30, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

> ...After all the discussion here yesterday, I pulled out my Sunshine
> kit
> last night, and much to my delight, found the same thing. The kit I
> have models the 44xxx series cars built in 1944. These cars have a
> composite plywood and steel door with the top 3/4 being plywood.

I wrote that War Emergency composite doors had upper sections of T&G
wood, which was true on other WE box cars that had such doors, but
Bruce is, of course, correct that on the GN plywood sheathed cars the
wood on the doors was plywood, not T&G.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: GN plywood side box car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 30, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

...After all the discussion here yesterday, I pulled out my Sunshine
kit
last night, and much to my delight, found the same thing. The kit I
have models the 44xxx series cars built in 1944. These cars have a
composite plywood and steel door with the top 3/4 being plywood.
I wrote that War Emergency composite doors had upper sections of T&G
wood, which was true on other WE box cars that had such doors, but
Bruce is, of course, correct that on the GN plywood sheathed cars the
wood on the doors was plywood, not T&G.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Freight car weathering [Was: Jack Delano color photos]

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 30, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Jack Burgess wrote:

I wonder if this might be related somewhat to the regional being
modeled.
The railroads operating in California (the limit of my knowledge <g>)
adopted oil very early due to the lack of coal and oil was very clean
burning. (The photos by Clegg and Beebe of oil burners with huge
clouds of
black smoke were staged at the request of the photographers.)
Industries in
California also didn't, to my knowledge, rely that heavily on coal. I
have 8
color photos of YV freight trains in the early 1940s and about 75-80%
of the
box cars are relatively clean....the roads represented include the
SP, ATSF,
GN, and NP, all western roads.
Jack is certainly correct that region and service assignments made a
difference. Cars that largely stayed out west are seen in photos to be
less grimy and more subject to faded and dusty paint than those, even
those owned by western RRs, which operated in general service and went
almost everywhere in the country in interchange. And, of course, the
dirtiest freight cars typically belonged to RRs in the northeast like
the PRR and NYC, since they spent much of their lives in coal burning
territory and in the grimy industrial northeast. It's also worth
pointing out that freight cars tended to be better maintained and more
frequently repainted in the late 1930s and early '40s, when the worst
economic effects of the depression were over but the heavy traffic
demands and deferred maintenance of the WW II era had not yet taken
their toll, than was the case in the mid-to-late 1940s. After the war
ended, it took several years for the RRs to acquire new cars, retire
old ones, and catch up on the maintenance and repainting of prewar cars
that were still in service. These variables all need to be considered
in weathering a model freight car fleet.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: GN plywood side box car

Bruce Smith
 

On Jan 30, 2008, at 12:37 PM, rockroll50401 wrote:

It has been mentioned that all the doors on these cars were steel. I
have a sunshine kit (I need to build before the IM car comes out). It
has the odd looking door with the flat section at the bottom (or top).
I've seen the IM model and it has a standard looking corrugated door.
I'm sure my Sunshine kit instructions will tell me all about these
cars, but I just thought of those funny looking kind of like war
emerency doors. Were they composite?

Clark Propst
Clark,

After all the discussion here yesterday, I pulled out my Sunshine kit last night, and much to my delight, found the same thing. The kit I have models the 44xxx series cars built in 1944. These cars have a composite plywood and steel door with the top 3/4 being plywood. According to the Sunshine prototype data sheet, the initial cars in the original run had a stamped steel door, then the composite doors were used. Subsequent post-war built cars had steel doors, including a group with 7 panel (Superior?) doors. The IM model appears to be one of the immediate post-war series of cars, and is not identical to the Sunshine kit I have.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: GN plywood side box car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 30, 2008, at 10:37 AM, rockroll50401 wrote:

It has been mentioned that all the doors on these cars were steel. I
have a sunshine kit (I need to build before the IM car comes out). It
has the odd looking door with the flat section at the bottom (or top).
I've seen the IM model and it has a standard looking corrugated door.
I'm sure my Sunshine kit instructions will tell me all about these
cars, but I just thought of those funny looking kind of like war
emerency doors. Were they composite?
Yes. The lower section, to which the rollers and latches were
attaches, was corrugated steel. The rest of the door was steel framed
with T&G wood sheathing. These doors were used on a number of other
War Emergency box cars, as well as on the GN 44025-44999 series plywood
sheathed cars (some of which, BTW, also had National B-1 trucks). The
later GN plywood sheathed box cars with postwar Improved Dreadnaught
ends had full Youngstown corrugated steel doors, however.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Jack Delano color photos

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Wouldn't the roughness of the painted surfaces have a lot to do with
how "weathered" a car looked? Pullman, in its glory days, repainted its
cars every couple of years. That tells me the glossy surface finishes
of the steam era broke down relatively quickly. Having done a few
(well, more than a few) bad airbrush jobs where the paint went on too
dry, I can certainly see how a rough painted surface would hold soot
and general grime much more readily than a smooth finish. The phasing
out of steam locomotives and the phasing in of synthetic paints (were
they concurrent?) would certainly have changed weathering patterns.

Just a random thought.

Tom Madden


Re: GN plywood side box car

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

It has been mentioned that all the doors on these cars were steel. I
have a sunshine kit (I need to build before the IM car comes out). It
has the odd looking door with the flat section at the bottom (or top).
I've seen the IM model and it has a standard looking corrugated door.
I'm sure my Sunshine kit instructions will tell me all about these
cars, but I just thought of those funny looking kind of like war
emerency doors. Were they composite?

Clark Propst


Re: Accurail SS boxcars with fishbelly frame

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "rwitt_2000" <rmwitt@...> wrote:


Jonathan Grant wrote in part:

Over here in England, ... the more useful items only seem to show up
occasionally at Swapmeets,
such as this Autocar kit from Dennis, that I picked up a couple of
weeks ago.

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/77599
I assume this is the long out-of-production resin kit?

Bob Witt
Yes.

Dennis


Freight car weathering [Was: Jack Delano color photos]

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

I wonder if this might be related somewhat to the regional being modeled.
The railroads operating in California (the limit of my knowledge <g>)
adopted oil very early due to the lack of coal and oil was very clean
burning. (The photos by Clegg and Beebe of oil burners with huge clouds of
black smoke were staged at the request of the photographers.) Industries in
California also didn't, to my knowledge, rely that heavily on coal. I have 8
color photos of YV freight trains in the early 1940s and about 75-80% of the
box cars are relatively clean....the roads represented include the SP, ATSF,
GN, and NP, all western roads.

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: Jack Delano color photos

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 30, 2008, at 8:32 AM, timboconnor@... wrote:

If you model the steam era, esp pre 1950, carbon soot could
accumulate on a parked rail car quite rapidly. Add a little rain
and sunshine, and you can get a really filthy car quite rapidly.
I've seen steam era color photos of cars just 2 or 3 years old
that were incredibly filthy. I think the percentage of truly filthy
cars declined somewhat in the 1950's as large numbers of
new cars were added, old junkers were scrapped, many older
cars got new paint jobs, and the amount of air pollution
declined ever so slightly (especially around rail yards). By the
late 1950's railroads cut back on repainting so weathering took
on more of a faded and/or rusty nature, rather than sooty.

Even more rarely modeled than filthy cars, are brand new
SHINY cars! Most model railroads could use some examples
of both.
Tim is entirely correct on almost all counts. The amount of soot and
grime that came out of the stacks of coal burning steam locos, though
well documented in both color and B/W photos, seems difficult for most
modelers to imagine unless they're old enough to have been there. Oil
burners weren't quite as bad - until the firemen sanded the flues, but
then they were, if anything, worse. Whether in trains or yards,
freight trains were constantly bombarded with that stuff. Adding to
that, when cars were idle they often spent a lot of time in heavily
polluted industrial areas (Pittsburgh or South Bend in the 1940s? The
mind boggles.) As Tim says, the retirement of steam locos made a big
difference after the mid-1950s. I'll take one mild exception to Tim's
remarks, however. White it's true that model railroads need some brand
new or recently repainted cars, truly shiny is not what you want.
Sure, fresh paint was somewhat shiny, as the photos show us. But it
didn't stay that way for more than a couple of weeks after the car
entered revenue service. Also, shine doesn't scale down. A model as
shiny as a freshly painted prototype looks wrong. More realistic is an
eggshell finish, mostly flat but with just a bit of shine to it (e.g.,
2/3 Dullcote and 1/3 glosscote).

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Jack Delano color photos

Tim O'Connor
 

If you model the steam era, esp pre 1950, carbon soot could
accumulate on a parked rail car quite rapidly. Add a little rain
and sunshine, and you can get a really filthy car quite rapidly.
I've seen steam era color photos of cars just 2 or 3 years old
that were incredibly filthy. I think the percentage of truly filthy
cars declined somewhat in the 1950's as large numbers of
new cars were added, old junkers were scrapped, many older
cars got new paint jobs, and the amount of air pollution
declined ever so slightly (especially around rail yards). By the
late 1950's railroads cut back on repainting so weathering took
on more of a faded and/or rusty nature, rather than sooty.

Even more rarely modeled than filthy cars, are brand new
SHINY cars! Most model railroads could use some examples
of both.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Jon Miller" <atsf@...>
Does anyone weather their models that heavily?<
Richard Hendrickson


Re: Accurail SS boxcars with fishbelly frame

rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

Jonathan Grant wrote in part:

Over here in England, ... the more useful items only seem to show up
occasionally at Swapmeets,
such as this Autocar kit from Dennis, that I picked up a couple of
weeks ago.

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/77599
I assume this is the long out-of-production resin kit?

Bob Witt


Re: GN plywood side box car

rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "gastro42000" <martincooper@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "rwitt_2000" rmwitt@ wrote:


--- In STMFC@..., "gastro42000" <martincooper@> wrote:

Group: The GN had 4 seies of plywood sided box cars 44400-44999
and44025-44399 these originally had plywood and steel doors and
4/5
ends. these were built in 1944 by GN. Seies 10000-10499 built
1945 by
GN had3/4 ends and all steel doors. 10500-10890 were the same, but
built 1947. Marty
Marty,

What type of corners on the ends: square post or "W" post?

Bob Witt
Bob: All were W corners. The 1944 cars Murphy ends. The 1945 and 1947
Dreadnought ends. Also express box cars 2501-2524 were plywood built
1944. Marty
Thank you Marty for the information and Tom for the link to the photo.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana


Re: Jack Delano color photos

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

Yes. Not all, but some.
Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Green
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 11:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Jack Delano color photos


RE: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=471324544&size=l

Does anyone weather their models that heavily?
Gene Green
Out in the - aww,you know where I am.


Re: 1926 ARA lettering change (was Accurail SS boxcars)

Bob Karig <karig@...>
 

There are really two factors to be considered here.

The first is the requirement to stencil the load limit (LDLMT) on the side of cars. This requirement was adopted in 1925, and the rules stated that all cars should be so labeled within three years of May 1, 1925. The rule stated that "load limit markings on re-stenciled cars may be loacated close to other weight markings until the car is re-painted." In that same year, the A.R.A. adopted the familiar stenciling scheme, which was inserted into the Code of Rules effective January 1, 1926.

In 1929, the A.R.A. extended the requirement to stencil load limit markings to January 1, 1929, with the same provisions identified above. The 1929 Code of Rules repeated that "load limit markings must be completed by owners by January 1, 1929."

However, the 1933 Code of Rules indicates that that there must have been some recalcitrance on the part of car owners. Up until that date, the stenciling requirement had not been made a requirement for interchange under rule 3. In the 1932 revision (effective January 1, 1933), a separate paragraph was added to Rule 3 governing the stenciling of cars for interchange. It stated, "(5) Stenciling: Load limit markings, as provided in Rule 30, required on all cars except tank cars and live poultry cars, effective January 1, 1933. From owners."

So, as you indicated, it would seem that you're likely to find cars in a variety of configurations during this transition period.

Hope this helps.

Bob Karig

The change in ARA Standard lettering requirements was enacted in 1926 (according to Car Builder's Cyclopedias,) although I have notations that the new Standard was in effect 1/1/25 (from Tim Gilbert,) and was required 5/1/25 (from Guy Wilbur.) Researching how railroads accommodated this change has been an on-again, off-again goal of mine, as I seek to model the Suncook Valley in 1930. My (far from exhaustive) research has led me to believe that the railroads restenciled their freight cars quite rapidly to conform to the new Standard. Off course, the required reweigh intervals in place at the time pretty much guaranteed that. All freight cars except refrigerators cars and all-steel house cars required relight-weighing every 24 months, while the two former types were permitted 36 months between reweighs. So, by no later than 1929, all freight cars would have had the CAPY, LD LMT, and LT WT markings that you postwar modelers are so familiar with.

I have a series of wreck photos that I suspect were taken somewhere in New England (based on the cars that made up the train and locale from which I acquired them.) On the backs of most of the images, there is but a simple underlined '28'. Of the cars that I can read reweigh dates on, all are 1927 or 1926. All cars for which I can see the left of the center have the revised stenciling with one exception- a PRR X28.

Other photos I have seen from this timeframe show that railroads used a full range of methods to meet the new requirements, from full repaints to just stenciling on the CAPY, LD LMT, LT WT and reweigh date onto an otherwise unreadable car side, or where the existing nominal capacity could be read, just stenciling on the new LD LMT and LT WT along with the date. If anyone is aware of additional sources of freight car images from the late twenties to early thirties, I would be interested in hearing from you.

Earl Tuson


Re: GN plywood side box car

gastro42000 <martincooper@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "rwitt_2000" <rmwitt@...> wrote:


--- In STMFC@..., "gastro42000" <martincooper@> wrote:

Group: The GN had 4 seies of plywood sided box cars 44400-44999
and44025-44399 these originally had plywood and steel doors and
4/5
ends. these were built in 1944 by GN. Seies 10000-10499 built
1945 by
GN had3/4 ends and all steel doors. 10500-10890 were the same, but
built 1947. Marty
Marty,

What type of corners on the ends: square post or "W" post?

Bob Witt
Bob: All were W corners. The 1944 cars Murphy ends. The 1945 and 1947
Dreadnought ends. Also express box cars 2501-2524 were plywood built
1944. Marty