Date   

Re: Question regarding NC&StL / Monon steel gons

Tim O'Connor
 

A good picture of one would be helpful :-)

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
Hi everyone,

Frank Hodina just emailed me, asking about a NC&StL 42 foot gon pattern he's
currently working on. It's the GB-12 class, 44000-44499 series, which were 9
panel cars built by P-S in 1949. He's found a series of Monon cars that are very
similar (3001-3300, P-S built in 1948. The ends are different), and he's
wondering if there were any other close matches out there. If any of you know of
any decent matches, now's the time to speak up!

Regards,

Ray Breyer


Question regarding NC&StL / Monon steel gons

Ray Breyer
 

Hi everyone,

Frank Hodina just emailed me, asking about a NC&StL 42 foot gon pattern he's currently working on. It's the GB-12 class, 44000-44499 series, which were 9 panel cars built by P-S in 1949. He's found a series of Monon cars that are very similar (3001-3300, P-S built in 1948. The ends are different), and he's wondering if there were any other close matches out there. If any of you know of any decent matches, now's the time to speak up!

Regards,

Ray Breyer


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Re: From O'Hare to Naperville's Holiday Inn

Ray Breyer
 

gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:
>>For us Florida guyz who have not attended Naperville before,
>>can someone suggest how to get to the Holiday Inn from O'Hare?
>>Direct to me please! Thanks.

Hi Gary,

There are driving directions at the hotel's website:
http://www.naperselect.com/set_location.html

From O'Hare Airport
- Follow 190 out of the airport to 294 south
- Follow 294 south to I-88 west
- Follow I-88 west to Naperville Road Exit
The Holiday Inn Select will be a right turn after you exit.

It's about a half hour's drive at normal highway speeds (75 or so around here). It's mostly tollway driving, so have a few singles on you.

Ray Breyer





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Re: Tim Gilbert

Thomas Baker
 

Very sorry to hear of Tim's passing. I have appreciated his postings over the years. We will all, I am sure, miss his expertise and his willingness to clarify or offer an insight.

Tom

________________________________


Re: hopper loads

armprem
 

In my youth during the depth of the Great Depression people would walk along the tracks carrying burlap bags.Their mission was to pick up coal along the tracks that had spilled from locomotives and cars.Bituminous (Soft) coal was burned in locomotives and in many homes as the prime source of heat.Often seen dowagers would boldly venture near the coal chutes where the picking was more rewarding.Railroad men would turn a blind eye toward the less fortunate.Railroads made little effort to salvage spilled coal.Soft coal had a special aroma.Anthracite (Hard) coal was more expensive and was the coal of choice for home heating as it burned cleaner and had a higher BTU.Some companies dyed their coal as an advertizing gimmick i.e. Blue Coal.There were several grades of coal and often came in several sizes.If I recall correctly stoker coal was smaller.Hope this adds some fuel to the fire.<G> Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:40 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: hopper loads


--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:


I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?
There was a certain amount of lignite mined in North Dakota, but it
wasn't shipped very far; after all, the only reason for trying to burn
the "brown dirt" was that it was cheap, and shipping charges negated
that advantage. The Northern Pacific burned lignite in their
locomotives, at least for a while, and had to use larger than normal
fireboxes to get adequate BTUs. The Soo Line bought it for heating
coal, which led to all sorts of stories from old time agents about
flitching "locomotive coal" (bituminous) to get the stoves hotter
during the coldest weather.

Lignite doesn't weather well; it dissolves in the rain and returns to
the from whence it came. Therefore what little lignite that shipped by
rail went in boxcars. I've seen a picture of the Washburn Mine loading
tipple during the WWI era, and they were loading boxcars exclusively.


How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?
Coke is flat black to dark gray in color. It is considerably lighter
in weight than coal, so a typical coal hopper couldn't haul a full
load. The eastern roads had special hoppers with "coke racks"
extending their sides for added cubic capacity. Old boxcars and
stockcars with their roofs removed were also common. Roads that had
little coke traffic just used boxcars or stockcars.

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.
I'll miss Tim's contributions also.

Dennis




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Re: hopper loads

np328
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote: How
can you tell anthracite from bituminous coal? Do they look the same?

Here is a listing from a fireman's instructional book in our NPRHA
archives that was donated by the family of Bill Shannon, one time
head of the NP Mechanical Dept.

Coal Classifications

Super Anthracite - High carbon/low impurities content/hard to start/
appearance- black and of pure carbon
Anthracite - used for domestic heating and coking/almost pure
carbon/few impurities/appearance/black
Sub-Anthracite - used for domestic heating and coking/good carbon
Bituminous/Good carbon content/some impurities/low-no moisture
Sub-Bituminous- Iowa/Illinois coals typical/impurities/some
moisture/blackish brown
Lignite-low carbon content/measurable water content/higher impurities
content/brown
Peat- high moisture/low carbon content

Also it mentions that Anthracite was BTU stable for a matter of
months, Lignite for a matter of weeks before it went slack.

Were special coke cars always used?

In the St.Paul, MN Kopper Coke yard, coal came in in gondolas
and hoppers and left in the same. From reports that I have read,
mostly NP Rwy reports, it was the consignee who determined what type
of car would be used to deliver the coke.

James Dick - NPRHA Archives
St. Paul, MN


Re: Tim Gilbert

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim was always startlingly frank and direct with me about his
health and I was always relieved to see him at Naperville or at
the Springfield Big E train show because I knew his prognosis
was grim. Yet as you say he was helpful, knowledgeable and
never lost his sense of humor. It's strange now to have so many
emails in my archive from so many departed pen pals... but in
Tim's case it's a great legacy too. I'll never be able to think about
LCL without remembering Mr. Gilbert.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
The news of Tim Gilbert's death gets my day off to a very bad start.
Tim's knowlege, resourcefulness, and willingness to share were a major
asset to the STMFC list and to prototype modeling in general. Like
Pierre Oliver, I'll miss seeing Tim at Naperville. Another good guy
gone to the great freight yard in the sky.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Coins as car weights

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Sound advice, because there are things like antimony in the
lead
that aren't good for you. But should you worry about the lead? In
reality, the vapor pressure of liquid lead is extremely low. There
will
not be enough lead vapor that it could even be measured, unless you
have a spectrograph. (Of course, I don't recommend leaning over the
bath and breathing deeply from right above the melt.)
I have heard that most lead (at least in Germany) is somewhat
contaminated by irradiation. Lead gets recycled many times over. Every
bit might have a history of having been engaged in the medical
business. This will show later on when its reincarnation into something
superficially harmless doesn't hint at its properties previously
acquired.

Manfred


Re: hopper loads

Tim O'Connor
 

Technically, bitumen and sand. Crude oil won't adhere. Besides
sand, you can use gravel, ash, steel mill slag, crushed glass, and
sometimes, shredded tires. Nowadays they use synthetic mats and
spread the bitumen on top of that and then add sand etc to soak up
the excess.

Tim "it's all macadam to me" O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Ljack70117@...
A lot of the so call "Black Top" roads are oil and sand.


Re: Freight Car Music (or is it after all?)

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Miller, Andrew S." <asmiller@...>
wrote:

Manfred,

Thanks for providing the quote in Honegger's own words. But I am
afraid
it only supports my confusion. Did Honegger mean "Marke 231" as the
number of the loco or the wheel arrangement, which, being a
Pacific, in
European notation would be 231, in American notation would have been
4-6-2.

regards,
Andy,

Marke is an unusual translation (in the sense of not using railway
lingo) from the original French. In this context the German "Marke"
means designation or class. From the wording he says: Pacific type
loco of class 231. Loco numbers are either a combination of class +
(serial) number (231 005) or like the US system a class number with
consecutive individual numbers (a 3700 class engine has e.g. the loco
number 3705). But since we are talking scores of railways there was
no general rule.

Please don't be confused. It is like it is.

Here are some pictures of other 231s used in France by the pre-state
railways.
http://www.galleriabaumgartner.ch/francia.htm

Enjoy!

Freight car content: Were freight cars ever designated by their wheel
arrangement?

Manfred


Re: hopper loads

Ljack70117@...
 

I see an error. I meant cement asphalt.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Aug 15, 2007, at 11:55 AM, Ljack70117@... wrote:

A lot of the so call "Black Top" roads are oil and sand. Interstate
84 in Idaho is made that way. They spray oil on the road and then
spread sand on the oil. The use rollers to roll the sand into the oil
but then let the traffic finish the job. When they were redoing a
state road north of Salina Ks we got gondola loads of sand from the
McPherson branch and then went east to the Solomon branch and then up
to Bennington Ks. These sand trains were about 50 cars twice a week
all summer long.
Have you ever seen an concrete asphalt road/street?
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left




On Aug 15, 2007, at 11:11 AM, ed_mines wrote:

How can you tell anthracite from bituminous coal? Do they look the
same?
My recollection is that anthracite is really hard and difficult to
break.

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

Should model anthracite and bituminous coal loads appear different?

As long as I can remember (I was born in 1949) most roads were made
from asphalt and small small stones. Were these stones (or larger
rocks)
common hopper loads? Was this type of road common in the '40s?

I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?

How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.

Ed Mines




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Re: Freight Car Music

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

And here I thought Honegger's was a feed mill on the Wabash which Chet
as switch lists for.
Thanks for the switch list you put in the files yesterday Chet.
Clark Propst


Re: hopper loads

Charlie Vlk
 

I have a copy of a 1901 Burlington Route "Special Instructions Regarding Fuel Economy." that goes into great detail regarding coal, boiler water, combustion, firing, etc..
It lists a number of coals (including Liginite) and rates their efficiencies against Streator (IL) coal as a benchmark of 100. For some reason Liginite is discussed but not
rated in the table. Liginite is a young soft coal that has a lot of shale and other waste material in it and being soft it has a high water content. It has a fairly good gaseous content and was used by the CB&Q (mostly later than this publication) extensively. The "Q" locomotives so fired were identified with a Yellow square on the tender coal bunker sidesheet and had special grates and additional netting in the smokebox, which was often extended to deal with the high ash content.
The point for steam era freight cars is that a number of railroads used different grades of coal in locomotive service with the higher grades reserved for passenger use. As Dennis pointed out different coals were supplied for stove heating. "Company" coal and mines are perhaps an under-represented source of traffic on our railroads....and a determiner of car distribution and use as well.
Charlie Vlk


Re: Freight Car Music

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Aug 14, 8:06pm, Denny Anspach wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Freight Car Music
Music is my constant companion when I am either at the bench or the
layout. At the present I am listening to a lovely Ravel violin sonata

Ah, yes: Ravel. Best known not only for the exotic "Bolero", but also for
the UP CA-1 caboose (long before Walthers did one) and the Superior
Bakery.

An excellent choice!

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: hopper loads

Bob Karig <karig@...>
 

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

Should model anthracite and bituminous coal loads appear different?
Anthracite has a sheen to it.

Both anthracite and bituminous were sized. Lump was greater than 4". Sizes progressed downward from there to less than half an inch, or smaller.

So you could have a train with each hopper car having a different sized coal.

Bob Karig


Re: hopper loads

Jim Williams <wwww5960@...>
 

Anthracite is the hardest, shiny and highest heat yield. Bituminous is softer (still brittle) with a lower heat yield. It's nic eto have a simple classification, but just remember they grade into each other.......Best Jim Williams

ed_mines <ed_mines@...> wrote: How can you tell anthracite from bituminous coal? Do they look the same?
My recollection is that anthracite is really hard and difficult to
break.

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

Should model anthracite and bituminous coal loads appear different?

As long as I can remember (I was born in 1949) most roads were made
from asphalt and small small stones. Were these stones (or larger rocks)
common hopper loads? Was this type of road common in the '40s?

I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?

How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.

Ed Mines






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Re: Box Cars In Grain Service

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" ----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Storzek
Certainly, in large yards that had clean-out tracks, cars could be graded and sorted by grade . . .but why bother? . . . If they order eight cars a day and today they reject one, just send them nine tomorrow.
----- Original Message -----
Service, shmervice. It's not like anybody is going to start shipping by trucks instead of trains . . .
=======================

That's not the way it worked and it didn't depend on the size of the yard. There was enough variation in car condition that you couldn't just throw cars at a customer. The yardmaster or trainsmaster was not interested in doing a lot of extra switching because of rejected cars.

Cars were not sorted by grade, but the grades of cars on the cleaning track were given to the yard office. When the yard clerk made up the switch list for cars from the cleaning track, he had the shipper car orders and knew the appropriate grade for each. The switch list was prepared accordingly with each empty being switched to the track for the job serving the customer to get that car - really no different from how loads were switched except that someone took a quick look at the car aftercleaning and called it A B C or D.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: hopper loads

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:
Coke is flat black to dark gray in color.
How about particle size?

Was there much coke being shipped? I recall it was a byproduct of
illuminating gas and some utilities burned coke in special plants.

Ed


Re: Tim Gilbert

Richard Hendrickson
 

The news of Tim Gilbert's death gets my day off to a very bad start.
Tim's knowlege, resourcefulness, and willingness to share were a major
asset to the STMFC list and to prototype modeling in general. Like
Pierre Oliver, I'll miss seeing Tim at Naperville. Another good guy
gone to the great freight yard in the sky.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Freight Car Music (or is it after all?)

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Manfred,

Thanks for providing the quote in Honegger's own words. But I am afraid
it only supports my confusion. Did Honegger mean "Marke 231" as the
number of the loco or the wheel arrangement, which, being a Pacific, in
European notation would be 231, in American notation would have been
4-6-2.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Manfred Lorenz
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:45 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Music (or is it after all?)

--- In STMFC@..., "Manfred Lorenz" <germanfred55@...>
wrote:

Sorry no freight car content! But at least the era is right.

How often would a fast passenger engine be used to haul freight
trains?
I am afraid I have to append my post. The 231 was a fast freight
engine: freight car content at last.

Here are some quote's of Honegger regarding his composition (sorry only

in German):

http://www.kug.ac.at/musik/honegger/zitate.htm

Especially this one is revealing:

"Der Gegenstand meiner Komposition war eine Lokomotive vom Typus
Pacific Marke 231 für Gütereilzüge."

"The subject of my composition was a locomotive of the Pacific type
(with the) designation 231 for fast freight trains."

I hope this will settle the matter once and for all.

Manfred




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