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Re: What is a "granger railroad"?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Aug 30, 2007, at 8:25 AM, Malcolm Laughlin wrote:

If you review a lot of the literature I believe you will find that the
term “granger” roads was applied to railroads that had most of their
trackage in that area of IL, MO, KA, NE, IA, WI, MN, SD, ND. I would
not say that a railroad that had most of its trackage elsewhere was a
granger road.

By the those criteria, here’s how they fall.

Definte granger roads. CB&Q, CMO, CNW, MILW, RI, SOO, CGW, M&StL,
GM&O (C&A)

Marginal granger KO&G, M-K-T, MV, TP&W, IC, SLSF

Not granger roads. ATSF, FW&D, GN, KCS, MP, NP, T&P, UP, C&S, GM&O
(GM&N)
Any criteria which render RRs like the Santa Fe, Great Northern, and
Northern Pacific non-granger RRs are obviously false and misleading.
All three railroads handled vast amounts of agricultural traffic,
especially grain shipments, from the regions along their routes that
were east of the Rocky Mountains. The fact that they had main lines
extending to the Pacific Coast is, in the context of this discussion,
irrelevant. How does the MILW, which also had a main line to the
Pacific Coast, qualify as a granger RR but not the GN and NP? And the
Santa Fe transported far more grain and other agricultural products
than, for example, the CGW, M&StL, or Alton. A granger railroad was
any railroad that hauled large amounts of grain and other ag products
from the states between the Mississippi River and the Front Range.
Never mind where else it went or what other sources of traffic it had.
Any other definition renders the term meaningless.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: DS cars in grain service

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Aug 29, 2007, at 8:30 AM, Malcolm Laughlin wrote:

In all my times of association with the car distribution process, I
don't recall ever seeing an order that said anything about type of
sheathing. That was not part of the readily available information
about a car. If it's40 ft. box with no leaks in the roof, sides or
floor, no visible contamination (e.g.grease,oil) and it has six foot
doors, it's a grain car.
Good grief! I leave home for a couple of days and my observation that
granger railroads preferred double sheathed to single sheathed USRA box
cars prompted a largely irrelevant discussion of car distribution.
Obviously Malcolm's last sentence is correct. But the preference of
many RRs for double sheathed box cars had nothing to do with car
distribution. It was simply a conviction, whether correct or
incorrect, that double sheathed cars were more likely to remain
weatherproof in service, and thus usable for grain shipments.

Richard Hendrickson
Re: What is a "granger railroad"?

Shawn Beckert
 

Ted wrote:

You kicked out SSW, which is OK; but then I would
think KCS would also be out. And Frisco is a real
question running into Texas. OK and Kansas, but also
into the deep South (Florida)
SSW a.k.a. the Cotton Belt had most of its territory in
Southeast Missouri, Arkansas and Texas. IIRC the main
agricultural products were rice, beans, milo, and of
course cotton.

Somehow I don't think any of the above would qualify
it as a "granger" road.

Shawn Beckert
Re: What is a "granger railroad"?

Ted Schnepf
 

Hi Larry,

You have raised an interesting classification.

I would think MSTL is a clear granger running in Iowa, Minn and northern Ill.

You kicked out SSW, which is OK; but then I would think KCS would also be out. And Frisco is a real question running into Texas. OK and Kansas, but also into the deep South (Florida).

You should get lots of suggestions on this question.

Ted

At 09:25 PM 8/29/2007, you wrote:

Hi Folks
The M&STL, IC, and Cotton
Belt were also mentioned, but with some dubiousness.

Here is my tentative list of granger RRs (U.S. only). What do you
think should be added? What should be removed?

FW&D
GN
KCS
KO&G
MILW
M-K-T
MP
MV
SLSF
SOO
T&P
UP

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming
Rails Unlimited
Ted Schnepf
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Westerfield box cars for sale

Michael McCaffery <mrr@...>
 

I have two remaining Westerfield kits that I am offering for sale to
help in my transition to Sn3.

They are:

Westerfield 1701 B-50-1 Southern Pacific
and
Westerfield 3311 USRA single sheathed Milwaukee

I'm asking $25 each plus $5 shipping, and will consider any reasonable
offer.

Please contact me off-list only at mrr@...
<mailto:mrr@...> .

Michael McCaffery
Bend OR
Re: Help identifying cars

Dan Gledhill
 

Hello Rob,
Went to your newly posted files but was unable to open them.What program would work best for this.My computer is set up with Milleneum 2000 .
Dan W.Gledhill

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Rob Kirkham wrote:
"I've posted a one page power point presentation to the files
section this evening titled "details @ Heatley St. Aug 6 1945.ppt"

Rob, I've uploaded a PDF of your slide to the files section with
annotated comments and links. The file name is "details @ Heatley St.
Aug 6 1945 (Hom review).pdf"

Ben Hom






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Re: Tahoe trucks, (WAS Detail part wish list?)

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Dean Payne wrote: "I'm happy to have the Tahoe Model Works trucks (Dalman
and arch bar), and I
wonder what they'll do next."

Bettendorf swing-motion caboose trucks, just what we've always needed for
Santa Fe's AC&F-built steel way cars. They've been out for a couple months
now.

So long,

Andy


Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142
Re: Gun Barrels - Paint question

Bruce Smith
 

John says:

So, let's say we had a tube going back east, and it had been on a ship carrying
a Measure 22 camo scheme, and we're going to model that.
A quick check of the navy Battleship camouflage database shows some interesting possibilities http://www.shipcamouflage.com/usn_bb.htm
Since we're talking about 16" 50 cal Mark 7s, then we can focus on the Iowa class (Note that I am using a 1/96th scale Mark 7 to stand in for a 14" 45 cal gun from the Pennsylvania as well)

1943 1944 1945
61 Iowa MS 22 MS 32a/1b MS 22
62 New Jersey MS 21 MS 21 MS 22
63 Missouri MS 32/22d MS 22
64 Wisconsin MS 22 MS 22

In order to decide what barrels come from where, painted in what camo measure, it is necessary to know where these ships are <G>
Iowa - Atlantic fleet 1942-43, Pacific fleet 1944-1949(mothballed)
New Jersey - Atlantic fleet 1943, Pacific fleet 1944-46, Atlantic Fleet 1947
Missouri - Atlantic fleet 1944, Pacific fleet 1945-1955(mothballed)
Wisconsin - Atlantic fleet April-September 1944, Pacific fleet September 1944-1945, Atlantic fleet 1946-1948(mothballed).

The top of the barrel would be the same dark blue as the "Deck Blue", and the
bottom of the barrel would be the appropriate intermediate/haze gray blue.
(I don't have my FS numbers in front of me.)
Deck blue was 20-B and haze grey was 5-H.

Measure 21 was all navy blue (5-N) and Measure 32 was a pattern of light grey (5-O), ocean grey (5-L) and black.

My question; The barrels pass through a boot upon entering the turret ---
at what point "up the barrel" from the breech would the camo paint start?
Look at:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h90000/h90624.jpg
The boots are secured to the 4th segment but seem to come to midway on the 3rd segment from the muzzle. Looks like I'm going to need to repaint the breech end of my Measure 21 barrels!


In the turret, I would imagine, from B&W photos I've seen, that the breech
end of the barrel would have been painted an interior gray, or maybe even
monkey vomit green, or not painted at all?
Check out these photos
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/k00001/k00513.jpg
A new barrel - Green and Yellow???? I think this is in part due to grease... but this isn't the weathered black I painted mine <G>.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/k00001/k00515.jpg
New barrels, rust and black. Notice where the turret is on these.

The breach mechanism was probably painted interior grey, but that would be left behind when the barrel was pulled. I'm guessing that it was either raw metal, rust or primer. If the last, it would be severely weathered by heat of firing.

I just thought I'd breech this subject ------
OUCH!

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0
Re: Detail part wish list?

Ray Breyer
 

Dean Payne <1payne1@...> wrote:
>>I've been wondering about a detail part wish list.

Boxcar ends! Tichy makes a few, as does Westerfield, but they're both woefully lacking in the basics. We need 7/7 Murphy, 7/6 Murphy, inward rib Murphy of all types, inward Hutchins, Vertical rib Vulcan, various makes of T-brace and composite ends...the list is vast!

For anyone modeling the 1920s through 1940s, having a good supply of "oddball" ends is a must. Scratching and bashing DS and SS boxcar sides, underframes and roofs isn't all that big a deal, but scratching a 7/7 inward rib Murphy end is beyond most of us on this list. Having a good supply of ends (that we don't have to cannibalize perfectly good resin kits for) will open up a large number of modeling opportunities (as you know Dean, the lack of Vulcan ends is the only thing holding me back from working on the Wheeling's 27000-series boxcars!)

Ray Breyer


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16" gun load was Re: Detail part wish list?

Bruce Smith
 

At 8/31/2007 01:03 AM Friday, Bill Vaughn wrote:
How about a 16" navel gun for my Milw. flats.
On Aug 31, 2007, at 12:52 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Yes, that would be a good one. But I'd want it to
be made from aluminum stock, turned on a lathe.
See my model using this barrel in TKM (#32, March, 2006, available on CD) as I posted right here, just two days ago <G>! This is an HO scale 16" 50 caliber Mark 7 naval gun (Iowa class battleship) and is available from Earl Meyers (emyers5@...). Earl's model is cast resin with an aluminum stiffener. My article details how to load this gun on the PRR F22, but the lading would be similar for the MILW flats.

In addition, John Hitzeman (AMB) is working on a lasercut kit for the bolsters for this load for the F22 those of you who don't want to scratch build these (the ones that come with the Crown Custom Imports brass flats are incorrect). The bolsters on the Milwaukee Road cars are different so they still require scratch building.

BTW, Bill, did you use the Roundhouse cars for your MILW flats? Amazingly, I discovered at Naperville that newer versions of this kit have had rivets added, making it less prototypically correct.

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. | Scott-Ritchey Research Center
Director, Molecular Medicine Program | Auburn University, AL 36849
Associate Professor of Pathobiology | 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2
************************************************************************ *********
"Evolution is a fact, get used to it"
Gun Barrels - Paint question

rgspemkt@...
 

How about a 16" navel gun for my Milw. flats.
Bill Vaughn



Everyone seems to be enjoying this thread --- and if Mike (our moderator) will
indulge another question --- the gun flats were not only used to transport the
tubes from the WNY to the point of installation, but also to return the barrels
after their 300 shots required refurbishment.

So, let's say we had a tube going back east, and it had been on a ship carrying
a Measure 22 camo scheme, and we're going to model that.

The top of the?barrel would be the same dark blue as the "Deck Blue", and the
bottom of the barrel would be the appropriate intermediate/haze gray blue.
(I don't have my FS numbers in front of me.)

My question; The barrels pass through a boot upon entering the turret ---
at what point "up the barrel" from the breech would the camo paint start?

In the turret, I would imagine, from B&W photos I've seen, that the breech
end of the barrel would have been painted an interior gray, or maybe even
monkey vomit green, or not painted at all?

So, at some point the interior paint would end and the camo paint would start.

If we're going to model this load "returning", we'd need to know this.

I have the information to do the load bolsters and other tie down parts for the
PRR Gun Flats (Thanks to Bruce Smith), now what about the same info
for the MILW flats??

I just thought I'd breech this subject ------

JH


PS Back to Bill's request - Ask and it shall be delivered --- in a couple of weeks.
????To see the PRR Load Bolsters, go here:?http://www.rgspemkt.com/F22.html





John Hitzeman
President/Owner
American Model Builders, Inc.
Now In Our?25th Year!!
LASERkit (tm)
www.rgspemkt.com
www.ambstlouis.net
www.laserkit.com




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Re: What is a "granger railroad"?

William Bryk <wmbryk@...>
 

I think part of our thinking was molded by the mid-20th century experience:
railroads like C&NW and Milwaukee with huge networks of branch lines over
the Northern Plains States - look at the old maps and the lines look like
capillaries in the human body - with light rail, used heavily only at
harvest time. And usually in and out of receivership.

I would add to the list of granger railroads the wonderfully ambitious
Midland Continental, which never quite reached either Winnipeg or the Gulf
of Mexico, but certainly served North Dakota. Once you begin thinking about
marginal short lines that never quite made it to 1950, the list grows
exponentially.

Regards,
William Bryk

On 8/30/07, Allen Rueter <allen_282@...> wrote:

I would think you would then have to include the Wabash, since it was in
the law suit ...

--

Allen Rueter
StLouis MO

---


Mr. Ostresh,

.... In 1886, in a case referred to as "the Wabash case", the Court

weakened this power by the states to regulate interstate commerce, which
eventually led

to the formation of the Interstate Commerce Commission.

....


Sincerely,

Robert D. Heninger

Stanley, ND

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Re: Detail part wish list?

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Be careful. Navel guns shoot belly button lint and occasionally
oranges. They are not frequently found on RR cars ;-)


regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
bill Vaughn
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 1:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Detail part wish list?

How about a 16" navel gun for my Milw. flats. Referse
ends would be nice, Dreadnaught and Murphy.

Bill Vaughn
Re: Chateau Martin Wine Cars

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Jim,

An excellent piece of research. Thanks much for sharing the photos, especially 171 on the Tidewater Southern. Did the TS serve a Chateau Martin winery? I would be very interested to know if the cars were frequent visitors to this line.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Lancaster James wrote:

From time to time there have been questions about the Chateau Martin wine cars owned by the Commodities Car Company (reporting marks CMWX). Using ORERs I have compiled a roster of the CMWX car fleet from 1950 (when they had 25 cars) to 1972 (down to 8 cars). The fleet peaked at 37 cars in the mid 1960s.

You can see the roster at
http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/chatmart/cmwx_roster_1.html

In addition to the roster, the web page includes a brief history, a few photos and some other Chateau Martin memorabilia.

Corrections or additions are welcome.

Jim Lancaster




Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Detail part wish list?

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dean,

How about the "Y"-shaped safety valve cluster used on early AC&F tank cars? F&C's new tank car includes a spare or two, but this would be a nice part to have in styrene or metal available on the general market.

I would love to see a variety of tender-type caboose steps, particularly the type used on so-called "Gould Standard" (my term, not official) cars of the D&RG, WP and MP. As a matter of fact, it would be nice to have a decent kit for these cabooses. Model Railroading Warehouse has been promising one for years, but so far nada.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Dean Payne wrote:

I've been wondering about a detail part wish list. Tops on my list
would be a lever-ratchet hang brake, a Universal or some other,
different from what comes on the Tichy sprue. (I found that I threw
out some when I built my Accurail USRA hoppers years ago!) I'm happy
to have the Tahoe Model Works trucks (Dalman and arch bar), and I
wonder what they'll do next. Does anybody make T-section Andrews trucks?
I was looking for side-mount double sill steps, but I think Des
Plaines Hobbies makes them. (Not that they're widely available...)
Ray Breyer and I were discussing the need for reverse Murphy ends for
NKP, C&O, etc... (although that's a pretty big "detail".) I'm sure there's plenty that I left out, but I'm asking for opinions,
not trying to present an exhaustive list.
I'm just curious about what people feel is lacking. Plus, maybe I
could distract you guys from discussing naval guns any further... ;-)

Dean Payne
Re: Help identifying cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Rob Kirkham wrote:
"I've posted a one page power point presentation to the files
section this evening titled "details @ Heatley St. Aug 6 1945.ppt"

Rob, I've uploaded a PDF of your slide to the files section with
annotated comments and links. The file name is "details @ Heatley St.
Aug 6 1945 (Hom review).pdf"


Ben Hom
New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /details @ Heatley St. Aug 6 1945 (Hom review).pdf
Uploaded by : benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/details%20%40%20Heatley%20St.%20Aug%206%201945%20%28Hom%20review%29.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
Re: Detail part wish list?

al_brown03
 

Dalman-Andrews trucks!

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Dean Payne wrote

I've been wondering about a detail part wish list.
A cast brass replacement air hose + bracket to replace
the beautiful, but incredibly delicate one, Branchline
included with their box cars. Applies to many other
freight cars too.

Pre-bent wire, with styrene or brass pipe hangers, to
replace the handrails on Proto 2000 and Intermountain
ACF tank cars. Getting the radius and shape correct on
the ends is not at all easy!

Big one -- a replacement frame for the Atlas 11k tank
car with open grid running boards, with a rolled edge
for stiffness. This is now possible with etched parts.
See this Athearn example on a modern intermodal car -
http://www.planomodelproducts.com/Maxi-I/ath-maxi1-a3-l.jpg

Smaller -- a replacement etched safety platform for the
Atlas 11k tank car (open grid).

Replacement etched ladders for P2K, IRC, Atlas tank cars.

(I have observed the lifespan of a fully intact plastic
tank car on a club layout is quite short due to fragility
of many of the plastic detail parts. And the handrails on
most of the cars sag, unless great care is taken when
building them.)

50 ton 'Chrysler' freight car trucks!! (The ones with the
shock absorber.)

Tim O'Connor
Help identifying cars

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I've posted a one page power point presentation to the files section this evening titled "details @ Heatley St. Aug 6 1945.ppt" It shows a variety of cars along the harbour area of Vancouver, British Columbia, in August 1945, just 9 days before Japan surrendered, so the war was still ongoing. That probably has a lot to do with the fact there are a lot of long gondolas in the picture - though most shots of the area in the 20's, 30's and even 50's show very few. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/

Although the images are poor, I am trying to identify the cars shown to whatever degree is possible. Unfortunately, these are extreme blow-ups of a digital image - a shot taken from a plane flying overhead, and so they are fuzzy and show little detail. Yet there are elements of each car visible to the point that I am optimistic some on this list will be able to at least give me some realistic guesses.

I am guessing the one box car featured is a Seaboard car with the Orange Blossom Special logo... Not at all sure. Perhaps the other regular box car is a NYC car? The double door? No idea.

The gon's are probably more identifiable to those of you in the know...

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Rob Kirkham
Re: Detail part wish list?

Tim O'Connor
 

Yes, that would be a good one. But I'd want it to
be made from aluminum stock, turned on a lathe.

For open loads, we need more big stuff like boilers,
generators, transformers, rotors, electrical gear.

At 8/31/2007 01:03 AM Friday, you wrote:
How about a 16" navel gun for my Milw. flats. Referse
ends would be nice, Dreadnaught and Murphy.

Bill Vaughn
132601 - 132620 of 198533