Date   

Re: What is a "granger railroad"?

Tim O'Connor
 

It's just a nickname for Pete's sake! The Grange was a large
and powerful social/political organization throughout most of
the United States but especially strong wherever agriculture
was predominant -- like in the middle of the country. It had
a huge impact on the eventual regulation of railroads and
other social and economic causes. And it still exists! So a
railroad that served areas where the Grange was the strongest
can be called a "Granger" railroad. I think of the Milwaukee
as the quintessential Granger.

Tim O'Connor


Re: What is a "granger railroad"?

Mike Fortney
 

Could be wrong but I had always understood granger railroads were
those located generally in the middle to upper Midwest between the
Mississippi River and the Continental Divide.

Mike Fortney

--- In STMFC@..., "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:

Hi Folks

The recent discussion about the use of double sheathed cars for
carrying grain, and Richard Hendrickson's observation that "all the
granger RRs got double sheathed instead of single sheathed USRA box
cars" caused me to wonder whether this preference persisted into the
mid-twentieth century. I wanted to compare the DS/SS split for
granger and non-granger railroads using my 1949/1950 digital ORER.

However, I ran into the difficulty of not being able to find a
compendium of the granger RRs. A search of "granger" in the archives
of this list earlier today turned up 95 hits; none of them cataloged
the granger railroads, but some examples were given: GN, CMO, MILW,
RI, NP, CP, CN, CNW, SOO, ATSF, and UP. The M&STL, IC, and Cotton
Belt were also mentioned, but with some dubiousness.

Here is my tentative list of granger RRs (U.S. only). What do you
think should be added? What should be removed?

ATSF
CB&Q
CMO
CNW
FW&D
GN
KCS
KO&G
MILW
M-K-T
MP
MV
NP
RI
SLSF
SOO
T&P
UP

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


What is a "granger railroad"?

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

The recent discussion about the use of double sheathed cars for
carrying grain, and Richard Hendrickson's observation that "all the
granger RRs got double sheathed instead of single sheathed USRA box
cars" caused me to wonder whether this preference persisted into the
mid-twentieth century. I wanted to compare the DS/SS split for
granger and non-granger railroads using my 1949/1950 digital ORER.

However, I ran into the difficulty of not being able to find a
compendium of the granger RRs. A search of "granger" in the archives
of this list earlier today turned up 95 hits; none of them cataloged
the granger railroads, but some examples were given: GN, CMO, MILW,
RI, NP, CP, CN, CNW, SOO, ATSF, and UP. The M&STL, IC, and Cotton
Belt were also mentioned, but with some dubiousness.

Here is my tentative list of granger RRs (U.S. only). What do you
think should be added? What should be removed?

ATSF
CB&Q
CMO
CNW
FW&D
GN
KCS
KO&G
MILW
M-K-T
MP
MV
NP
RI
SLSF
SOO
T&P
UP

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: DS/SS split, April 1949; PRR & NYC

armprem
 

Thanks Larry.I'll check with John to see what he has.Regards,Armand premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "laramielarry" <ostresh@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 8:28 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: DS/SS split, April 1949; PRR & NYC


--- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem@...> wrote:

Larry,Do these figures include the war emergency SS box cars? Is
there a source that gives the total number of war emergency cars
built ?Armand Premo


Hi Armand

I don't know if you are asking me or Larry Kline these questions. I
have War Emergency SS box cars flagged in my 1949 and 1950 digital
ORERs, but only incidentally (i.e., I have not made a systematic
effort to find them, but noted them as WE if that is what the source
said).

In April 1949 there were 2,913 of them and in July 1950 there were
2,910.

Most of my information on these cars came from the NEB&W web site and
was compiled by John Nehrich.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming





Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Freight car condition in the 50's; weathering

Philip Dove <philip.dove@...>
 

Chuck
If you don't even buy the kits, the dreams of the perfect railroad aren't as vivid, Catalogues are no substitute. Buying the kits and reading the essays of Mr Westerfield is a prime way of learning about Freight cars.
Regards Philip Dove

----- Original Message -----
From: RUTLANDRS@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 29 August 2007 04:09
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight car condition in the 50's; weathering


Walter,
Sheesh, if you didn't "buy" the kits, think how much more money you
could save!
Chuck Hladik

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


PRR gun flats

Russell Hass <rhass@...>
 

HABS/HAER has a set of drawings for the naval gun forge at Bethlehem, PA which includes an assembly drawing for a gun tube. Google American Memory and search PA-186-C.

There are a number of other drawings sets dealing the Beth Forge's operations.
PA-186 has a nice ink drawing showing a string of loaded truss rod LV gun flats.

PA-186-B shows the heat treatment of armor plate.

Russ Hass


Re: Early Image Of Loading Grain Into A Boxcar

Tim O'Connor
 

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Ljack70117@...
Very interesting, I have one question!!!!! How do they ever get along
with out cell phones??????
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Larry, why don't you call them and ask?

Tim "direct dialing to the past" O'Connor


Re: Early Image Of Loading Grain Into A Boxcar

Ljack70117@...
 

Very interesting, I have one question!!!!! How do they ever get along with out cell phones??????
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Aug 29, 2007, at 11:56 AM, Bob Chaparro wrote:

The image on the link was taken from the website, Smokstak at:

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29221&page=2

Image:

http://tinyurl.com/3amsgv

The caption reads:

"This is a picture of my uncle Audie Yaeger dumping grain into a
Milwaukee RR boxcar at Joan, Montana, with the old Model TT dump
truck. Since Ford didn't build bodies for Model TTs when this chassis
was built, Dad and his brothers put a roadster or more likely
a "chopped touring car" body on it. The dump box is a near balance,
hand dump type."

Simple and basic.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet





Yahoo! Groups Links



Gun Caliber was Re: PRR gun flats

brianehni <behni@...>
 

Nay, nay. Here's what Wikipedia has to say about caliber as measurement of length:

Relationship of caliber in bore and length of gun
The length of the barrel (especially for larger guns) is often quoted in calibers. The
effective length of the barrel (from breech to muzzle) is divided by the barrel diameter to
give a value. As an example, the main guns of the Iowa class battleships can be referred to
as 16"/50 caliber. They are 16 inches in diameter and the barrel is 800 inches long (16 ×
50 = 800). This is also sometimes indicated using the prefix L/, so for example, the most
common gun for the Panzer IV tank is described as a "75 mm L/48", meaning a barrel 75
mm in diameter, and 3,600 mm long.

This is distinctly different from it's use to describe the bore diameter.

Brian Ehni

--- In STMFC@..., "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@...> wrote:

A couple of quick points before this thread drifts off-topic altogether.

Both uses of "Caliber" are referring to the same thing, the gun bore
diameter.

I suspect it's not a Navy/Army difference, but rather one of small
arms vs. artillery class weapons. The navy used .50 and .30 cal
machine guns, .30 cal rifles and carbines and .45 cal pistols the same
as the army, and referred to them in similar if not identical terms.
The army referred to its tank guns and artillery in the same terms as
the navel guns, bore size in millimeters or inches and barrel length
in "calibers".

I suspect (but have no proof) that one inch was the dividing point.
Thus Caliber .50 (inch) vs 25mm, 37mm, etc.

At least we don't use the system favored by the British army of the
period, rating the gun by shot weight - 2pdr, 6pdr, 25pdr etc. Those
three were 47mm, 57mm and 87.6mm respectively IIRC.

Pieter Roos


--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:


From what I recall of Armyspeak, you're probably both right.
Brian probably is thinking of Manualese, a dialect of Armyspeak.
So the subject of the technical manual is "Machine Gun Heavy M2HB
Browning Caliber .50" or something like that.



----- Original Message -----
From: brianehni
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:31 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR gun flats

You are incorrect.

In the Army, the M2HB Browning Heavy Machine Gun is ".50 Cal". Note
the
addition of the
"."


Calling All Models

golden1014
 

Gentlemen,

We're setting up the second edition of The
Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler magazine
http://s-clmodeler.aclsal.org/currentissue/sclmodeler2007-1.pdf
and I'm calling for photos of your models to put in
our "Modeler's Showcase" section.

Here's the deal: Send photos of your SAL, ACL, SCL,
Family Lines, CSX, and/or affiliated lines (like GA
RR, West Point Route, etc., etc.--we can even handle
L&N) structures, engines, rolling stock, and other
models of all scales along with a caption on how you
built the model. Yes, we can handle in-progress models
too--just send them.

If you want to send one photo with a few words, that's
fine. If you'd like to send a series of photos and a
page or two of text on how you built the model and
maybe a proto photo too, that's even better--we might
be work a separate article like what we did for Clark
Propst in the first issue. You don't need to be a
member to get published, and you don't need to be a
superstar modeler either--just send me what you've got
and we'll run with it. If you've never been published
before, this is a great way to get started and get
recognized. In fact, it's so easy to get published in
The SCL Modeler that my Mom could do it.

Please send your stuff direct to me at
Golden1014@.... Thanks!

John


John Golden
Bloomington, IN

http://www.pbase.com/golden1014


Gun Caliber was Re: PRR gun flats

Pieter Roos
 

A couple of quick points before this thread drifts off-topic altogether.

Both uses of "Caliber" are referring to the same thing, the gun bore
diameter.

I suspect it's not a Navy/Army difference, but rather one of small
arms vs. artillery class weapons. The navy used .50 and .30 cal
machine guns, .30 cal rifles and carbines and .45 cal pistols the same
as the army, and referred to them in similar if not identical terms.
The army referred to its tank guns and artillery in the same terms as
the navel guns, bore size in millimeters or inches and barrel length
in "calibers".

I suspect (but have no proof) that one inch was the dividing point.
Thus Caliber .50 (inch) vs 25mm, 37mm, etc.

At least we don't use the system favored by the British army of the
period, rating the gun by shot weight - 2pdr, 6pdr, 25pdr etc. Those
three were 47mm, 57mm and 87.6mm respectively IIRC.

Pieter Roos


--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


From what I recall of Armyspeak, you're probably both right.
Brian probably is thinking of Manualese, a dialect of Armyspeak.
So the subject of the technical manual is "Machine Gun Heavy M2HB
Browning Caliber .50" or something like that.



----- Original Message -----
From: brianehni
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:31 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR gun flats

You are incorrect.

In the Army, the M2HB Browning Heavy Machine Gun is ".50 Cal". Note
the
addition of the
"."


Re: Guns on Flat Cars was "PRR gun flats"

Andy Laurent <arlaurent@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "bdg1210" <Bruce_Griffin@...> wrote:

I have pursued the identity of the gun carriage type (to model) with
several B&O modelers both active-duty (and stationed at Ft. Bragg)and
retired to figure out the type of military equipment this was with no
results. Any insight would be appreciated. BTW the B&O P-25a can
now be easily modeled using the Protowest resin kit. A review of kit
is coming in next B&O Modeler. It's very good. Its available through
the B&ORRHS Company Store, and probably other outlets.

Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin
Summerfield, NC
Bruce, according to my copy of "The Standard Guide to U.S. World War II
Tanks and Artillery" this is a carriage for either a 240mm Howitzer M1
or an 8-inch Gun M1. Both cannons used what appear to be the same
carriage, although the 240mm howtizer only shows one elevating hand
wheel on the right side of the trunnion.

-Andy Laurent


Early Image Of Loading Grain Into A Boxcar

Bob Chaparro <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

The image on the link was taken from the website, Smokstak at:

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29221&page=2

Image:

http://tinyurl.com/3amsgv

The caption reads:

"This is a picture of my uncle Audie Yaeger dumping grain into a
Milwaukee RR boxcar at Joan, Montana, with the old Model TT dump
truck. Since Ford didn't build bodies for Model TTs when this chassis
was built, Dad and his brothers put a roadster or more likely
a "chopped touring car" body on it. The dump box is a near balance,
hand dump type."

Simple and basic.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet


Re: DS cars in grain service

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

In all my times of association with the car distribution process, I don't recall ever seeing an order that said anything about type of sheathing. That was not part of the readily available information about a car. If it's40 ft. box with no leaks in the roof, sides or floor, no visible contamination (e.g.grease,oil) and it has six foot doors, it's a grain car.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


source of photo of C&O gon # 43089

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

I have photocopy of a C&O gondola at a coal tipple, # 43089 sometime
after Nov. 1952. The car has had its oval ends notched. I would love to
have a print of this photo for my presentation at Naperville. Does
anyone on the list know its source?

I know it is not from the C&O Historical Society.

Bill


Re: PRR gun flats

Viv Brice
 

In your own words, Bruce, Oooops!
Viv Brice, an SPF from 'down under'

_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Bruce Smith
Sent: Wednesday, 29 August 2007 10:46 pm
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR gun flats




On Aug 29, 2007, at 3:37 AM, Viv Brice wrote:

Bruce,
I hate to nit-pick but all the information I have says that the
four Iowa
class fast battleships, commissioned in 1943 and 1944, all had 16" 50
caliber guns, that is, before the end of WWII.
Viv,

The date I gave was post WW ONE <VBG> for the development of 50
caliber guns. Specifically, the Iowa class had 16" 50 caliber Mark 7
guns, one of which can be seen modeled mounted on 2 PRR F22 flats in
The Keystone Modeler (#32, March, 2006).

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed. <http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2>
auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: PRR gun flats

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 29, 2007, at 3:37 AM, Viv Brice wrote:

Bruce,
I hate to nit-pick but all the information I have says that the four Iowa
class fast battleships, commissioned in 1943 and 1944, all had 16" 50
caliber guns, that is, before the end of WWII.
Viv,

The date I gave was post WW ONE <VBG> for the development of 50 caliber guns. Specifically, the Iowa class had 16" 50 caliber Mark 7 guns, one of which can be seen modeled mounted on 2 PRR F22 flats in The Keystone Modeler (#32, March, 2006).

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Crane and Railroad at Hunters Point Naval Shipyard

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Having been awed by the Hunters Point Navy Yard Gantry crane since first seeing it in 1952, I have also been very skeptical over the years that despite comments to the contrary, that it could actually lift an entire three-16" gun battleship turret without the turret already stripped down to something of a weight that could be handled. A 2000 lb. lift would be awesome beyond description, but also beyond possiblity.

Now, did the crane ever actually ever do such lifts?

As Tony has described, Hunters Point has a virtual spaghetti bowl of trackage going everywhere. About ten years ago, I operated my Kalamazoo motor car freely over just about all the usable trackage in the former Navy Yard- extremely interesting with more switches and diamonds than Carter has pills. Especially interesting were the spurs that dead-ended at right angles at the very edge of each submarine pen, so positioned to load and unload torpedoes directly over the ends of whatever type of special railroad car that was designed or altered the purpose. There were no stops, and one could still easily and quietly just roll right off into the deep.

Still stored at Hunters Point at that time were a fair number of very peculiar antique-appearing small (36'?) steel box cars with plated ends, some of which I believe ended up in the much belated railroad museum collection that was struggling on in several buildings on the base at that time. I do not know what these military boxcars were or where they went, although I am making inquiry as we speak.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
5603 Lakeshore Drive
Okoboji, IA 51355
712-332-2914


DS/SS split, April 1949; RI, ACL

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

Here are the numbers of box and auto cars for the RI and ACL, April
1949 and July 1950, classified by siding type.


RI:

April 1949
RI_____%____Number
DS_____7.4%____1,327
SS_____50.5%____9,071
Steel_____42.1%____7,575
Other_____0.0%____0
Known_____100.0%____17,973
Unknown_____0.0%____0
Total_____100.0%____17,973

July 1950
RI_____%____Number
DS_____6.7%____1,205
SS_____45.8%____8,259
Steel_____47.5%____8,560
Other_____0.0%____0
Known_____100.0%____18,024
Unknown_____0.0%____0
Total_____100.0%____18,024

The Rock Island retired a bit over a hundred double sheathed cars and
about 800 single sheathed. It added 1,000 steel boxcars in the 24000-
24999 series and overall grew by about fifty cars.


ACL:

April 1949
ACL_____%____Number
DS_____20.0%____2,406
SS_____0.4%____44
Steel_____79.6%____9,585
Other_____0.0%____0
Known_____99.9%____12,035
Unknown_____0.1%____7
Total_____100.0%____12,042

July 1950
ACL_____0.0%____Number
DS_____17.3%____2,382
SS_____0.2%____22
Steel_____82.5%____11,366
Other_____0.0%____0
Known_____100.0%____13,770
Unknown_____0.0%____0
Total_____100.0%____13,770

The ACL retained most of its double sheathed cars, but cut the number
of its few single sheathed cars in half. It added 1,799 steel
boxcars in the 21630-23429 series and overall grew by over 1,700 cars.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: PRR gun flats

Viv Brice
 

Further to my last, I have since found a reference to the Hunters Point NSY
crane (and another picture), again stating that it was used to remove
battleship turrets, but also stating that it had a 630 ton capacity. While
this certainly makes it a huge crane, and indeed might well have been the
world's largest at the time, at that capacity it would not be able to lift a
2000 ton plus turret.

Viv Brice, an SPF from 'down under'

_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
timboconnor@...
Sent: Wednesday, 29 August 2007 5:04 am
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] PRR gun flats




Wow, that must have been some crane! Those things weigh more
than 1,000 tons each...

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturep
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> ress.com>

Hunters Point, San Francisco, had a crane capable of removing
complete turrets from Iowa class battleships.

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