On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:32 PM, destron@... wrote:

On p22 of the Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars book, the pic of
#30196
has another set of trucks I've never seen before. Does anyone who has
this
book know what these trucks are?

Cleveland Car Specialty Co. pressed steel arch bar truck, in which the
conventional steel bars of the arch bar design were replaced with
pressed steel U-section frame members.

Richard Hendrickson

I once watched a cement truck loading from a rail car. The driver had
a measured stick on a stand that he placed under the truck. As the
truck was loaded, the body of the truck lowered slowly until it just
touched the stick. At that point, the truck was at its maximum legal
weight limit. I wonder if this could be done with railroad cars?

Tim O'Connor

Archibald & Darnall, purveyors of concrete block and precast shapes,
was a likely recipient of carload cement in Bloomington from the
plants up north on the IC's Charter Line from approximately 1910 to 1964.

Mike Fortney

Surely you've seen the I.M. Pei hoppers.? They're ugly, an insult to the hoppers around them, and they don't work for their intended purpose.







Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, Oregon





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Fact: The local local cement plants covered hopper loads were and
still are weighed, each and everyone.
Appreciate your insight Larry
Clark Propst



--- In STMFC@..., Ljack70117@... wrote:

FYI Not all cars were weighed. The shipper and the RR would work

out

an agreement Where the RR would accept the shippers word on the
weight. If you had ever seen any of the waybills you would know of
this agreement. The waybill would be stamped with this agreement
number. This was true of any big bulk shipper.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left




On Oct 23, 2007, at 11:05 AM, rockroll50401 wrote:

We don't see too many models of box cars in

cement service, do we?

John Golden

Aerial views of the yards at the cement plants in Mason City in
during
our time period are full of box cars. Lots more than covered

hoppers.

The bulk market was just getting going good in the 50s.

All bulk cement loads were weighed. during the 50s many cement

plants

did not have scales (Because they had been shipping bags) so the

RRs

had to weigh them.

Clark Propst




Yahoo! Groups Links

FYI Not all cars were weighed. The shipper and the RR would work out an agreement Where the RR would accept the shippers word on the weight. If you had ever seen any of the waybills you would know of this agreement. The waybill would be stamped with this agreement number. This was true of any big bulk shipper.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

A few points that I haven't seen addressed explicitly in this thread.

a) Looking at a 200 mile radius, here are some marks that you would have a good chance of seeing on cement cars in Connecticut - L&NE, CNJ, NYC, B&M, D&H. Those are just the ones I'm sure of.

b) Covered hoppers were not general service cars. They were covered by an AAR special car order that required empty return via reverse route (on a "revenue form of waybill without charges"). They could be assigned or in pools. There were three possibilities (not saying no exceptions to the 3).

1. Customer assignment was the most common. Customers wanted an assured car supply and insisted on assigned cars. This would be likely for an isolated cement plant.

2. Agency pools existed where several users of a particular car type were at the same station. A railroad preferred an agency pool to specific assignments because utilization was often better. You might have found such a pool for DF cars or for covered hoppers, in the days before railroads had the computer capability needed for a system-wide pool. This would happen when one yard served several cement plants.

3. Unassigned controlled by the owning railroad. This required that the railroad have the capability to know where all such cars on its line were so that they could be efficiently distributed. An early example was when the NYC acquired its first 100 ton covered hoppers for grain service carrying only traffic shipped under a specific tariff. Those 100 cars were entered into the computer as a pool. The agricultural industry marketing manager got a daily report on their locations and told the covered hopper distributor in the transportation department which shippers could get them. In the case of the Flexi-Flo cement cars, There were several pools, one for southeastern Ohio, one for Selkirk and another that I forget. These cars were distributed under authority of the district transportation superintendent. It would be a rare occurence that an Ohio car would go as far east as a Selkirk car would go west since most cement moved around 200 to 300 miles. Less than 150
almost certainly went by truck (1960's).

c) The term "confiscated" is not something you would have heard AFAIK in the 50's or 60's. Here is a definition from wiki.

Confiscation, from the Latin confiscatio 'joining to the fiscus, i.e. transfer to the treasury' is a legal seizure without compensation by a government or other public authority. The word is also used, popularly, of spoliation under legal forms, or of any seizure of property without adequate compensation.

Obviously the word does not apply to appropriating a car for a load since it is not a seizure. And there is compensation. That's what per diem rates are about.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Brad,

I recall very little cement traffic going south from Dixon and
Lasalle/Oglesby. One or two cars to the various interchanges most
days. Modahl & Scott redi-mix at Bloomington also received three or
four loads a week. Each plant had their own quarry so very little
aggregate was moved. One exception was the Medusa plant at Dixon
received gyp rock from the Ft Dodge, IA area. Both the IC aand CNW
handled this traffic. Coal from Sou. Illinois and Kentucky came north
to the cement plants.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

--- In STMFC@..., "xv_corps" <fortyrounds@...> wrote:

Chet,

What impact did that generally north- and/or east-ward shipment of
cement have on the southern end of the Amboy? I seem to remember
Bill Dunbar writing that the first section of 372 was usually heavy
with cement traffic through Bloomington. Would that have been
aggregate heading north to the plants? From what you wrote, it seems
that that pool of 440 or so IC cement hoppers were in somewhat

captive

service between the plants and the Chicago and Wisconsin
destininations.

Thanks,
Brad Hanner

We don't see too many models of box cars in

cement service, do we?

John Golden

Aerial views of the yards at the cement plants in Mason City in during
our time period are full of box cars. Lots more than covered hoppers.
The bulk market was just getting going good in the 50s.

All bulk cement loads were weighed. during the 50s many cement plants
did not have scales (Because they had been shipping bags) so the RRs
had to weigh them.

Clark Propst

Chet,

What impact did that generally north- and/or east-ward shipment of
cement have on the southern end of the Amboy? I seem to remember
Bill Dunbar writing that the first section of 372 was usually heavy
with cement traffic through Bloomington. Would that have been
aggregate heading north to the plants? From what you wrote, it seems
that that pool of 440 or so IC cement hoppers were in somewhat captive
service between the plants and the Chicago and Wisconsin
destininations.

Thanks,
Brad Hanner

SNIP>White cement. Medusa was one of a few manufacturers of cement

So, with the colored cements only being made in a few plants >

(especially the white) there may have

been some small amount of this cement traffic moving some long
distances > SGL

The local plants brought in white cement and resold it just for special
orders. It came bagged in box cars and was not rebagged, but sold with
the originating plant's packaging. Mason or mortor cement 'generally'
was always bagged. The milling process takes more time and (I'll say
special equipment) so many plants quit making it in the late 50s-early
60s as they upgraded their process equipment.
Clark Propst

We've had several new folks join STMFC so for them, and as a
reminder to the rest of the membership, here are the STMFC rules:



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Tony,

That's part of why I asked, because at various layouts I've operated on, none have had scalehouse or operations relating one so I've never seen something like this in action. Granted, i'm only 23, but i've been regularly operating somewhere since I was 19.

From my perspective though, it's good to know that I'm not insanly crazy wanting to incorporate this into my own operating scheme when I get to that point.

Regards,
John Frantz

York, PA

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
John Frantz wrote:

I was thinking of during the pre-session setup have special insert
'waybill' that says upon arriving in a yard the car must be weighed
before being placed in the consist of the train to its next respective
destination.

John, this has been an idea used in car-card operations for years.
That's not a criticism, of course, just a comment.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






York, PA
Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Maryland & Pennsylvania and Western Maryland Railroads.

Hi Jim,

It was not uncommon to see Seaboard or ACL "cement hoppers" on other
railroads in the East and Midwest. In many cases, these cars would
be carrying phosphates from Florida to fertilizer plants,
warehouses, etc. around the nation. There's plenty of photographic
evidence showing the unique Seaboard and ACL phosphate cars also
traveled far off their home roads as well, presumably delivering wet
and dry phosphates as well.

For the record, Seaboard and ACL--along with most railroads in our
era of interest--moved a lot of bagged cement. Therefore it wouldn't
be unusual to press box cars into service at cement plants,
particulalry older cars. We don't see too many models of box cars in
cement service, do we?

John Golden
Bloomington, IN

-- In STMFC@..., Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Did cement hoppers travel long distances in interchange service

as a

common practice? For instance, if you were the conductor on a job
working a cement plant did you tend to see a lot of mixture of cars
(by RR) or were they mostly from one road? I'm primarily

interested

in what happened in the 50's ... but I'd also be interested in

knowing

that the practice changed over the decades if that happened.

My experience/logic says that there are cement producing plants
"all over the nation" and the product is fairly heavy ... so it
makes sense that they did not ship cement from some place such as

the

Kaiser Permanente in Cupertino, Ca. to a ready-mix supplier or

bagging

plant in New Jersey.
I would guess that major projects - such as the pour of a dam -
might receive cement in hoppers rather than after it has been
re-packaged into smaller quantities such as the typical 50# bags
we see all the time. But other than those special situations I
would guess that a loaded cement hopper went to a bagging or
ready-mix plant for unloading. True?

So wouldn't a ready-mix plant in Georgia typically receive its

cement

from a 'relatively local' source rather than having it shipped all

the way

across the country?

And then there is the question of whether or not the

yardmaster/freight

agent in 'some yard somewhere' would just grab any available empty

cement

hopper for loading or if they were typically sent back to their

home

road relatively quickly (compared to a general purpose car such as

a

box car, mill gon, or flat).
- Jim in San Jose

P.S. I've never seen any info on the routing of cement hoppers.

If there

is such a thing I'd be interested in knowing about it.

Schuyler wrote:

I know that John explained this, but I find the "keeping the cars in the correct orientation" isn't
a credible answer. But what are the characteristics of the "Walthers thread" (and what IS it,
anyway?)? Is the thread sufficiently flexible that the magnet, which is, if I get this right, flat
anyway, could flip over to be "correctly" oriented so as to be attracted to the other one? IOW,
self-correcting to a degree?

SGL

First, the cars don't need to be kept in any particular orientation. I don't
think I was very clear on that. But, it's not that the cars, themselves,
that need to?be polarized. <G>

Compare?it to Kadee coupler "air hose"?magnets - no specific
polarization needed.

I have yet to play around with Walthers "thread". I bought?one of
their telephone pole kits, hoping some of this thread might be?
included, but it appears the thread in that box is just that - thread.

I'm trying to get in touch with Dave. IIRC, WKW had this material
cataloged on a spool that could be purchased separately. But,
I have been unable to find it listed, and it hasn't crossed my mind
when I've talked to our buyer. I'll?do my best to track this down.

I've used the Berkshire Valley 700% stretchable material for trolley
pole retriever lines, but found it unsuitable for air hoses. 'Can't
recall the name they market it under - something like E-Z Line.
I have two spools of it on my desk at work - getting old stinks. <G>

I'll do my best to get the information together.

John




John Hitzeman
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Malcom,

A few points:

On the CB&Q all cars were supposed to move on individual waybills.
There were pads of "Slip Bills" available for empty cars and there was
only supposed to be one car on each slip bill. It was not considered
acceptable to use the waybills of whatever form received from the
connecting carrier. Only exception there would be tank cars or
similar moves.

I find your "System of Trust" rather interesting. I think we are talking
about exactly the same thing. The foundation of that "Trust" was that
if the GST's office put out instructions they would be followed. Isn't
that the way it was on the NYC?

Training of Yard Clerks? Who did that? All the training I ever got was
before I became an Employee. There was minimal on the job training.
Most of such training was simply instructions on how things were done
and an emphasis that everything needed to be done the same way it
was always done.

I will acknowledge that the policy of retaining all foreign 40ft box car,
(with a few special exceptions), gradually died off during the 60's.
That is beyond the scope of this group. The reason it died off was that
starting with the C&NW the Railroads finally "broke" the Grain Inspection
track system. In the case of the CB&Q at Cicero the two 120 car tracks
with a road between them was turned over to the Intermodal people who
badly needed space. As to the country elevators in Northern and Western
Illinois they now seldom loaded anything by rail. With the Grain Inspection
Track system gone they had to market their product in a different manner.
Now those branch lines are gone as are most of the elevators.

As to cars from Canada the NYC had direct connections with both
Canadian roads. The CB&Q did not.

You say you were involved in car distribution. Did you ever move empty
cars away from points where they could be loaded? Sounds like that is
what you are advocating.

What else can I say?

Russ

On p22 of the Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars book, the pic of #30196
has another set of trucks I've never seen before. Does anyone who has this
book know what these trucks are?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

-----
http://hydrorail.hostwq.net/index.html - Rails along the Fraser
http://hydrorail.rrpicturearchives.net/ - Rail Photos

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

And of course, the MIT more-or-less annual attempt to build concrete canoes.

Actually, Schuyler, engineering departments at plenty of places DO build concrete canoes and in fact race them. There is nothing sillier about concrete for a floating object than steel; in fact the concrete is lighter and cheaper. Fabrication IS a challenge, as I'm sure you realize, but as a one-off demonstration, a thin-walled concrete ship works fine.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I can confirm concrete ships, but not Pei's private concrete cars. One of my
instructors in Architecture school designed them as his contribution to the war
effort. He claimed that all of his sank upon launch, but that I cannot confirm.

CJ Riley


--- Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

Oh, brother, Tony, you were not aware of these cars? IMPX? Now,
just WHERE have you been? Stuck on all that SF stuff?

Oh, right. Those were the heavy looking slab-design cars with big
side posts, all constructed in precast concrete? Isn't there a McCoid
photo?

Tony Thompson Editor,

Ah, so you haven't been asleep all this time. You're correct. One of the
more significant orders
for the cement was the cast concrete ships that were built (and before the
rest of you think I've
been drinking more than tea, remember the Mainline Modeler article on these).
And of course, the
MIT more-or-less annual attempt to build concrete canoes.

SGL

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I believe Schuyler is correct; the old MDC truck had roller bearings but otherwise resembled the B&LE truck (minus the brake shoes and hangers)...
Charlie Vlk