Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 4:24 PM
Subject: Tichy kits

On Aug 1, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

"Varying degrees of work" is exactly right. Not all those
company cars were General American cars (thus don't share the
underframe); not all had the same dome DIAMETER; not all shared the
same tank length and diameter, or if you will, tank proportions. I
think Richard Hendrickson has explored some of those company tank car
options, and may wish to chime in on this topic.

Yes, and apart from the SP cars (and their WP clones, as Garth Groff
has pointed out), all of them would involve a degree of modification or
kit-bashing that is out of all proportion to the quality of the
results, given that the Athearn models are hardly state of the art to
begin with. In any case, Bruce Nordstrand was inquiring about cars
that could plausibly be used on a model of the Interstate RR down in
the Virginia coal country, and that could be modeled with readily
available kits or RTR. In that context, it's pointless to even mention
the Athearn tank cars.

Richard Hendrickson

Tony

Yeah, I know. In my PERSONAL opinion the Athearn model is junk.
Pecos River Brass imported excellent models for SP, ATSF, and UP
years ago and these still show up on Ebay from time to time. For SP
modelers the earlier cars, built in the 1920's, are far more numerous
and extremely difficult to model because of the radial rivet courses.
PRB did some cars like that for ATSF modelers, but not SP. Drake
(Red Caboose?) imported 8,000 gallon GATC cars that are accurate
for another class of SP tank car. Between Drake, PRB and Westside
there are 4 accurate brass models of SP tank cars -- 1 before 1910
and 3 after 1940. And nothing in between.

Tim O'Connor

Tim O'Connor wrote:

In addition, the single-dome model shares the bottom "course" with the 3-dome model, and therefore has rivets corresponding to the interior bulkheads on a 3-dome car, but which would not be present on a 1-dome car.

Those superfluous rivet rows are on the top courses, too, Tim, of the single-dome car. But they are pretty quick and easy to sand off.

The Athearn 1-dome is kitbashable into SP, UP, and ATSF cars with varying degrees of work. Maybe WP, NP, GN too -- I think they all had cars of this size.

"Varying degrees of work" is exactly right. Not all those company cars were General American cars (thus don't share the underframe); not all had the same dome DIAMETER; not all shared the same tank length and diameter, or if you will, tank proportions. I think Richard Hendrickson has explored some of those company tank car options, and may wish to chime in on this topic.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

In addition, the single-dome model shares the bottom "course"
with the 3-dome model, and therefore has rivets corresponding
to the interior bulkheads on a 3-dome car, but which would not
be present on a 1-dome car.

There were a number of railroads who owned 12,000 (+/-) gallon
plain 103 tank cars, but they were not that common for private
owners when compared to the numbers of 8,000 and 10,000
gallon cars.

The Athearn 1-dome is kitbashable into SP, UP, and ATSF cars
with varying degrees of work. Maybe WP, NP, GN too -- I think they
all had cars of this size. But Tony's right, most modelers have no
use whatever for Athearn 1-dome or 3-dome tank cars, now that
there are excellent alternatives.

Tim O'Connor

Ben Hom wrote:

That sounds like a good use for the Athearn three-dome tank car - one car can be a donor for three single dome cars.

Exactly what I recommend, and have done with a fleet of SP cars. I've often wondered if Athearn ever noticed an uptick in their sales of 3-dome car bodies (not kits) after Richard's article <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony Thompson wrote:
"The easy way is to just raise the dome height, as Richard covered
years earlier in Western Prototype Modeler, and as I described in more
detail in the SPH&TS magazine _Trainline_, issue 71, 2002."

That sounds like a good use for the Athearn three-dome tank car - one
car can be a donor for three single dome cars.


Ben Hom

John Huey wrote:

Athearns stand by single dome and tripple dome cars are decent and inexspensive alternatives as always.

The Athearn triple dome is complete fantasy, John, and is not even remotely a stand-in for anything. The single-dome car is a very unusual size, 12,500 gallons, and though quite accurate (with some kitbashing) for some SP cars, is not useful for much else. Its size alone rules it out as a stand-in for essentially every non-SP paint scheme in which it's been sold. Anyone wanting to come even close to prototype modeling does NOT have Athearn tank cars (again, except for us SP guys).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Ben Hom wrote:

Inexpensive, yes. Decent - that's debatable. The single dome tank car can be salvaged as a Southern Pacific 12,500 gallon prototype tank car with a new dome. See Richard Hendrickson's article "Modeling Fifties Era Tank Cars, Part 1" in the August 1996 issue of Railmodel Journal for details on this kitbash.

The easy way is to just raise the dome height, as Richard covered years earlier in Western Prototype Modeler, and as I described in more detail in the SPH&TS magazine _Trainline_, issue 71, 2002. And these cars were used in greater numbers for commercial service than for company fuel service, whatever you may have heard in the past. (But would be pretty improbable on the Interstate.)

There is no known prototype for the Athearn three-dome tank car.

Ben, you're too shy. There is no prototype, period.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
.....

had access to MARKAL or TEMPSTIX brands of thermal signal crayons . .

Would this be Tempilstix?

YES! It would.
Thanks, Peter Boylan

On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:57 AM, John Huey wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Nordstrand <brucen@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all
> hoppers I am OK with, the rest is confusing - especially
> tank cars. For example, what exactly is a type 21 riveted
> tank car and when would it have been used? Can anyone
> point me to any resources...

Howdy and welcome Bruce,

As far as nice riveted tanks go for your period, the Intermountain
car pictured in this link is a nice choice:
http://www.imrcmodels.com/ho/hotankcars.htm

Another interesting car, although welded, was in use after 1949 is:
http://www.red-caboose.com/cgi-bin/e_catalog/catalog.cgi?
&page=new_product_pages/ho_tank.html&shop=redcaboose&language=eng&cur
r=0&session=46b09d364ea83185&cart_id=20787589x20136

But of course the car that Bruce was specifically asking about was the
AC&F Type 21 tank car, introduced (as the type number indicates) in
1921, continued in production through the late 1920s, and very common
in revenue service through the 1950s and into the '60s. Those have
been modeled in HO scale in the Life-Like (now Walthers) Proto 2000
line in 8,000 gal. and 10,000 gal. non-insulated and 10,000 gal.
insulated versions. The Intermountain models represent AC&F Type 27s
(1927 on) in both 8,000 and 10,000 gal. sizes and the Red Caboose car
models AC&F's postwar welded 10,000 gal. tank cars. All were in
service during the period Bruce is asking about, though who owned them
and where they were likely to turn up is a much more complicated
question.

Athearns stand by single dome and tripple dome cars are decent and
inexspensive alternatives as always.

Uh, John, that's a statement with which you will get a lot of
disagreement on this list. As has been pointed out often, Athearn's
single dome car can be rendered accurate for only one group of Southern
Pacific 12,500 gal. prototype cars, and then only with considerable
modification. As for the three dome model, it bears little resemblance
to ANY prototype tank car. "Decent"? I don't think so.

Richard Hendrickson

Ben,

The Athearn single-dome tank is also accurate for Western Pacific 1201-1250, with the same modifications as Richard outlined in his article.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Nordstrand <brucen@...> wrote:

Hi all
hoppers I am OK with, the rest is confusing - especially
tank cars. For example, what exactly is a type 21 riveted
tank car and when would it have been used? Can anyone
point me to any resources...

John Huey replied

As far as nice riveted tanks go for your period, the Intermountain
car pictured in this link is a nice choice:
http://www.imrcmodels.com/ho/hotankcars.htm

Compared to the type 21, this was a small percentage of the fleet, but certainly worth having a few.

Another interesting car, although welded, was in use after 1949 is:
http://www.red-caboose.com/cgi-bin/e_catalog/catalog.cgi?
&page=new_product_pages/ho_tank.html&shop=redcaboose&language=eng&cur
r=0&session=46b09d364ea83185&cart_id=20787589x20136

This is an odd-ball welded car that makes up a very small percentage of the fleet at the time. Check the archives for correct paint schemes.

Athearns stand by single dome and tripple dome cars are decent and
inexspensive alternatives as always.

Define decent! Ben has already covered the problems with this car.... I would be dubious that any of the SP cars would show up on the Interstate or L&N.

Bottom line? Think Sunshine X-3, Walthers/P2K type 21 and a non- existent as yet GATC car for the majority of the fleet. Add in a few IM type 27s, an F&C Type 11, a Speedwitch NATX car, a few of the SC&F Standard tank car kits, maybe a kit-bashed USG-A car or Precision Scale Van Dyke and you will have a reasonable representation... of course, tank car traffic in 1945 was vastly different than 1954 and your choice of location may also make a big impact on the tank car owners that you would see. On the Interstate in 1950, you would probably only see local delivery of refined products, so then, you need to figure out who the online dealers were, and who would supply them (plus of course the lease fleets) to get the right ownership of cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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On Jul 31, 2007, at 11:01 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Bob Chaparro wrote:
> I know that most freight cars were reweighed from time to time and
the
> date of the procedure was stenciled on the cars.
> Was the same true for tanks cars?

This has been discussed a couple of times on the list, Bob, and you
can find it all in the archives. Briefly, the answer is no: you don't
need the tare weight of the car when the cargo is measured in gallons.

Tony is right, of course, but it may be added that tank cars WERE
reweighed and restenciled from time to time, though they were not
required to be. Reweighing usually took place when major modifications
were carried out, such as the replacement of K brakes with ABs or of
arch bar trucks with Andrews or ARA/AAR cast steel trucks. This
practice wasn't universal, however, and I have photos of cars late in
life that still bore the weight and "NEW" stenciling with which they
were delivered. A notable example is a 6K gal. Van Dyke tank car built
for Union Tank Line in April, 1912 and later equipped with cast steel
trucks which, on the eve of retirement in the early 1950s, was still
stenciled "NEW 4 12."

Richard Hendrickson

John Huey wrote:
"Athearns stand by single dome and tripple [sic] dome cars are decent
and inexspensive [sic] alternatives as always."

Inexpensive, yes. Decent - that's debatable. The single dome tank
car can be salvaged as a Southern Pacific 12,500 gallon prototype tank
car with a new dome. See Richard Hendrickson's article "Modeling
Fifties Era Tank Cars, Part 1" in the August 1996 issue of Railmodel
Journal for details on this kitbash.

There is no known prototype for the Athearn three-dome tank car.


Ben Hom

--- In STMFC@..., "Ray Meyer" <rgmeyer2@...> wrote:

Does anyone know the weights of each component? Unless the weight

is such

that it would unbalance the car (unlikely), it still seems to me that
putting all the components together in one spot makes more sense. It
wouldn't be hard at all to design a system where each element could be
individually changed out, even in configuration for things like hopper
cars. Never heard of it, but wouldn't the pipes be subject to

damage from

stones, dragging equipment, things on the ties, etc? [All just fun
speculation.]

Ray,

Well hop in your time machine and go back to tell it to the guys at
Westinghouse Air Brake. Lessee, June of 1930 shouldn't be too far
along in the development curve. Or, drop by New York Air Brake and
tell them to make something innovative, rather than just copying the
WABCO stuff :-)

Seriously, all the things that make sense to us are pure speculation.
The only thing that is known to be fact is that neither firm built a
combined unit. No, I don't have a reference for the weights of the
components handy, but consider this; not only did the low hanging
position of the triple valve on KC equipment make it more vulnerable
to impact damage than the piping would ever be; the location made it
hard to change without getting dirt in the system, unless done over a
pit, a facility which few RIP tracks had. The ease with which the
valve portions of an AB control valve could be changed, and the fact
that they could be located right at the edge of the car may have been
the selling point that trumped all others suggested during the design
phase.

Dennis

Al Westerfield wrote

Aside from us and F&C I saw no new introductions of freight cars,
although I didn't look all that hard.

Al

Several excellent new freight car models for 1960's to present era
modelers. Remember, time marches on! The 1950's are to our children
what 1890-1900 was to us... :-)

Tim O'Connor

There were quite a number of prototype modelers at the show. We sold better than we had in the last 3 or 4 years. F&C reported the same.

In general the number of vendors was down quite a bit, cost probably being the main factor.

Aside from us and F&C I saw no new introductions of freight cars, although I didn't look all that hard.

The clinics I gave (non-freight car) were attended by knowlegable modelers who asked perceptive questions. From the titles of the other clinics it appeared that the level of interest in the prototype was on a par with those given at RPMs. The model contest, although sparce, had excellent models. Best in show was a very nice major coal dock facility.

- Al Westerfield

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Nordstrand <brucen@...> wrote:

Hi all
hoppers I am OK with, the rest is confusing - especially
tank cars. For example, what exactly is a type 21 riveted
tank car and when would it have been used? Can anyone
point me to any resources...

Howdy and welcome Bruce,

As far as nice riveted tanks go for your period, the Intermountain
car pictured in this link is a nice choice:
http://www.imrcmodels.com/ho/hotankcars.htm

Another interesting car, although welded, was in use after 1949 is:
http://www.red-caboose.com/cgi-bin/e_catalog/catalog.cgi?
&page=new_product_pages/ho_tank.html&shop=redcaboose&language=eng&cur
r=0&session=46b09d364ea83185&cart_id=20787589x20136

Athearns stand by single dome and tripple dome cars are decent and
inexspensive alternatives as always.

Hope this helps,

John Huey
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizona_southern_rr
A group for freelance RR modelers to talk to like minded folks...

NMRA? What's the NMRA?

Richard Hendrickson

Don't do that. You make me think I spelled it wrong!
Clark Warren Propst