Mike Brock wrote

I quite agree...and have always maintained...that coal laden hoppers
from one RR will often have to ride another to the final destination.

And this is in fact clearly documented in the charts I mentioned
from "Chessie's Road" (the charts are from the C&O HS collection)
and in fact they show how many tons were turned over at each point
of interchange -- 36 million tons a year passed through Charleston
westbound on the C&O, but less than 6 million made it to lake boats.
Millions of tons went to the B&O, Erie, PRR, and other connections
large and small.

The charts were compiled by the brothers Van Swerigen in an attempt
to get the ICC to approve the merger of PM-NKP-ERIE-C&O-HV. A pretty
good idea, just 70 years ahead of its time...

Tim O'Connor

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
"You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the
C&O or N&W."

Chessie's Road, p. 171... what's that under the tipple? Hmmmmm.
Appears to be a VIRGINIAN hopper car. Yep.

By the way, pp.140-141 have wonderful traffic charts showing coal
flows by tonnage and carloads, and also show loaded/empty car stats
for Erie, NKP, C&O, Hocking Valley and Pere Marquette in the 1920's
for WV to Illinois. Did you know NKP handled an average of 665
eastbound loads a day from Bellevue to Cleveland, but only 52 empty
cars? The Erie handled 587 loads east from Marion, 117 empties. Loads
westbound was less for both, but NKP got a higher percentage of
returning loads than the Erie.

But I digress.

Tim O'Connor

Hello All,

How would these cars be unloaded?

It seems to me that they would fill with Carbon Dioxide, and thus you
could not go into one of them. (And live.)

Peter J. McClosky
=====
rhinman@... wrote:

--
--
Peter J. McClosky
http://home.earthlink.net/~pmcclosky
pmcclosky@...

Being used as insulated box cars?

Bill Vaughn
--- branchline@... wrote:

Ice service maybe?

Bill Schneider

----- Original Message -----
From: Miller, Andrew S.
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 8:07 AM
Subject: [STMFC] strange C&NW cars


Can anyone educate me on the purpose of these C&NW
cars?
http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/1a34660uu.jpg
<http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/1a34660uu.jpg>


They have hinged, refrigerator car doors, but no
ice hatches!

Are they rebuilds?

regards,

Andy Miller


[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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Malcolm Laughlin writes:

"You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the C&O or N&W."

Perhaps so. We seem to have fewer photos at the actual mines compared to mainline traffic. However, there is the photo of a 3 bay MP hopper [ along with a companion Erie hopper ] in a long string of MT B&O hoppers on the B&O headed to West Va from Lorain, OH B&O Trackside, pg 40 ]. These "foreigners" will be loading coal rather far from home rails. I quite agree...and have always maintained...that coal laden hoppers from one RR will often have to ride another to the final destination. In the case of Appalachian RRs this might mean that the first part of the trip would be on home rails and only the need to get to Newcastle...well...a Lake Erie port or the Chicago area...might cause them to go off line. But...a Mopac hopper heading to WV? Don't sound like its first mileage will be on home rails.

Mike Brock

Except for an experimental car built by ACF, all of the DICX cars were MDT standard refrigerator cars modified for this service by building insert kits and in many cases had special door assemblies added. MDT had the service contract with Dry Ice Corp and its successors from the early 1930s until the late 1960s. I could supply car type for most any car in this range. I'm on travel this week and don't have access to my records but DICX 115 is probably the M4 car modified for this service.

I also have at home, two older O scale cars, mfg unknown, of DICX cars in a similar low number range. What was interesting to me is the re-weigh data on the models appears correct and was probably taken from a photo. I have never seen a confirming photo of any DICX car less than 120 but do ihave dispostion records that indicate year built


Roger Hinman

Posted by: "Mike Brock" Bruce,
I didn't express myself well. What I meant to say was that Appalachian RRs
including Pennsy, C&O, B&O, and N&W would commonly have hoppers of these
same RRs in their consists.... although perhaps C&O and N&W might not have
many of their own in the other's trains.
===========

A few points that come to mind beyond what Mike has said.

The situation was different in loading areas on C&O, N&W and a few other railroads covered by C411. That was a car service directive that prohibited other railroads from loading cars of specified marks. These were railroads that by the Car Service Division's formula owned a number of cars adequate to completely protect their on-line loading. You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the C&O or N&W. In contrast to the usual situation, this was an AAR order that was well observed. I recall from NYC car distribution experience that we absolutely would not send those marks to our mines for loading. I don't recall what iother roads were covered by C411.

Remember that any coal shipper could ship to any destination on any railroad. As an example of what could happen, coal from mines along the west end of the C&O and N&W, also NYC, IC and SOU in southern IN and IL, also western PA, would take care of consumption needs in Michigan and northern Ohio and Indiana. This would have caused you to see coal hoppers of NYC, IC, N&W, L&N, C&O, CC&O, PRR, B&O and P&LE anywhere in those destination areas on WAB, NKP, AA, PM, GTW, NYC, DT&I, PRR, B&O, etc. etc. etc. So you really can't say that any mark of hopper doesn't belong on any railroad going to coal dealers and power plants several hundred miles from the mining areas.

Same is true of construction aggregates, which typically traveled a few hundred miles and had origins in every state. I'd guess that half were two line hauls.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Berwind hoppers appeared ,out of proportion,on the Rutland for interchange with the CV.Was there anything special about the coal that they carried?.Does anyone know where they went on the CV? Armand Premo

Someone (Jim Sands?) posted a wreck photo of one of the TP&W cars that
shows the roof -- and also shows a CB&Q box car with an identically treated
roof: dark seam caps and galvanized panels. Evidently this was a common
practice, but rarely modeled. (Some recent Athearn Genesis cars have roofs
done this way.)

I also have a color scan of one of the TP&W cars and there's no doubt that
it's Pullman Green.

Tim O'Connor

IIRC Athearn kits came with unassembled trucks with rubber "springs" for a brief time in the early sixties, either as a cost-cutting move or
expedient to a spring shortage.
Charlie Vlk

Thanks, Ed, for the information. The color did look to me like Pullman green. You have added two points I had no idea about: The galvanized steel roof and running board and the six-foot door, not a seven-foot door. Very helpful.

Tom

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:

I always thought that was a Colorado & Southern operation.

Yep, the isolated standard gauge C&S Climax branch from Leadville,
last bastion of steam on the C&S. Isolated, in this case, means
isolated from the rest of the C&S system.

Tom Madden

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Oh, and who is it that served Climax, Colorado?

D&RGW in the time we're interested in.

Tony Thompson

Armand:



I have one of those kits un-built; it is not like what Denny described.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Armand Premo
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:41 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] D.I.C.X. Dry ice car, unknown maker.



Denny,September 1948 MR has an ad for a Mathieson Dry Ice Reefer by
Laconia,$ 2.35 with trucks ,$1.50 without.Armand Premo

I always thought that was a Colorado & Southern operation.

Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Oh, and who is it that served Climax, Colorado?

D&RGW in the time we're interested in.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Mike;



I like how you presented the bait! "Cars that shouldn't be...", indeed.



While not on the scale of the widespread ramblings of the boxcar fleet, I
too, have often wondered how very foreign hoppers ended up on the PRR (and
B&O and P&LE, too). So, I tried to do some research that would lead me to a
better understanding of what loads might be generated in far-off lands that
was needed by a customer on the PRR, particularly my area.



All the key points being made are very valid, and in what I have found, there
seems to be a lot more specificity in the use of open hoppers, covered
hoppers, gons and flats than the more general service nature, and
representation thereof, in the steam era box car fleet.



Hoppers seem to be found in strong representation of what specific industries
are on-line, and more importantly, what specific industries might need from
far away.



While Bruce's comment that at most 75% of open hoppers might be home road,
one would also expect to find that it might also vary upward or downward
depending on who is generating or receiving what, and where, on your road, or
the segment you are modeling.



Each "for instance" seems to be different. On the Mon Branch of the PRR,
there was a strong representation of the P&LE, in large blocks, simply
because the Monongahela Rwy, which was jointly owned by the PRR and P&LE, had
no hoppers of its own, and both roads fed blocks of their own onto the MRy to
feed the almost solely coal trade hosted by that road's feeding everything it
had onto these two larger roads. Thus, you saw big blocks of P&LE hoppers,
sometimes with NYC cars mixed in (it WAS a System, after all), interspersed
with all the PRR hoppers.



But, you also saw individual or small strings of other roads' hoppers, that
represented the flow in, of other commodities like limestone, dolomite,
cobalt, chromium, iron ore, manganese, and other additives for the steel
industry. You also, as Bruce and others have mentioned, saw a lot of other
local roads' hoppers, which just seemed to be grabbed as needed, to serve
either of these functions, that included B&O, C&O, N&W, Montour, P&WV, RDG,
P&S, C&I, and others, because they were handy.



But, we also see in photos, cars that traveled a long way to get there, which
must've ended up there because they either carried a load that was only
available (or most cheaply available) from some very distant producer, or
because they did something like this, and then got grabbed before they could
be expeditiously routed back, and used locally for some other commodity. I
randomly saw SP hoppers in Conway Yard that appeared to have partial loads,
that then ended up in local yards. I never found out exactly what the load
was (but I have strong suspicions; see below), but I have been told it was
everything from "it was from the Eagle Mine", or any host of others, from
SoCal. Similarly, we know that SoCal soda ash was also something received by
glass works in SP covered hoppers, in w.Pa.



I have lots more research to do before I can be anywhere close to certain
what all the details are for my specific area, but here are a couple notes,
for things that were used in the steel industry, at almost every integrated
facility, nationwide (yes, that includes Provo, Utah; Fontana, CA, and any
number of other locations which you guys focus on):



Chromium (only 20% from US in 1953): US: Montana, CA, OR, AL ., with
remainder via ports of entry from Turkey, S. Africa, S. Egypt, Cuba (eastern
ports)

Cobalt (only 23% domestic as of 1953): US: Missouri, ID, PA., with remainder
via ports of entry from Congo (don't know which port was port of entry)

Iron (ore) (<80% domestic by 1953): 80% from Great Lakes; MN, etc., with
remainder via ports of entry from Canada, Cuba, Venezuela (USSteel was
heavily invested here, and had a port of entry in Phila, via the PRR),
Sweden, Brazil, Liberia, and Sierra Leone

Manganese (US produced only 162,000 tons of 3.5 million tons used): US: MN,
AK, SD, AZ, NV, MN; Foreign remainder via ports of entry from India, S.
Africa, Gold Coast, Cuba, Belgian Congo, Brazil

Molybdenum: most of 15,500 tons used was from Climax, Colorado

Nickle: 80-90% of that used originated in Canada...

Tungsten (very small volume, but >90% foreign) from Korea, Bolivia, Spain,
Portugal, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, with small remainder from ID, and NV



BTW, I did not make this info up; some of it is from a speech given by one of
the materials guys at Bethlehem Steel in 1953, to a group of U.S. govt folks
concerned with availability of strategic materials in the event of war.
Remember those "strategic materials stockpiles" found all over the U.S back
in the 50's and 60's? There were some on the Mon Branch.... This is where
they came from!



Anyway, as one can see, anywhere there was an iron or steel maker, there were
additives needed, and an awful lot of them came from ports via the RRs, or
from far-flung states. Now, if we could figure out exactly who was supplying
the industry, and what RRs were used to ship where....



And, is it any wonder that we see CN and CP hoppers?



BTW, I have a small spreadsheet illustrating some of what I found out on this
subject, if you are interested.



Oh, and who is it that served Climax, Colorado?



Take care,



Elden Gatwood



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Mike
Brock
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:57 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book



The Kline & Culotta book The Postwar Freight Car Fleet contains a few photos
of cars that should not be in the Harrisburg area. On pg 158 is CTSE Chicago
Milwaukee St. Paul & Pacific hopper, pg 159 shows Central of Georgia 899
hopper, pg 164 has IC hopper 72238 along with NC&StL hopper 48241, and pg
167 shows MP hopper 63295. One might even question the presence of CN hopper
118481 and B&M hopper 8252. The unexpected travel of hopper cars has long
been analyzed and discussed...but more often with regard to eastern hoppers
being found west of Ft. Worth. Seeing cars such as mentioned above in the
East must be refreshing for the Pennsy, C&O, N&W, and B&O modeler since they
can occasionally insert a "foreigner" into the endless strings of company
and other Appalachian road hoppers. Kinda like a UP, Santa Fe or SP modeler
inserting an occasional MDT or BREX car into their strings of PFE or SFRD
cars.

I do have to wonder...curiosity being a strong motivator...just what the CG
car is doing there.

Mike Brock

Armand Premo wrote:
"Denny, September 1948 MR has an ad for a Mathieson Dry Ice Reefer by
Laconia, $2.35 with trucks, $1.50 without."

I have two of these Laconia cars - it's not the same model that Denny
is asking about.


Ben Hom

Denny,September 1948 MR has an ad for a Mathieson Dry Ice Reefer by Laconia,$ 2.35 with trucks ,$1.50 without.Armand Premo

All,

PRR received solid trains of B&O coal at Cumbo (near Martinsburg, WV)
and either solid trains or large blocks of N&W coal at Hagerstown. All
of this would have passed through Harrisburg on its way to the
northeast.

John King

On Jul 8, 2007, at 8:53 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:

I was reviewing the photos in RPC #2 and Kaminski's ACF Tank cars book
tonight and noticed something I hadn't seen before. The cars in the
photos
have three different uncoupling levers depending on when they were
constructed. Cars built up through approximately Jan 1931 had carmer
type
levers, from 1931 to the late 30's top operated levers were
installed, and
starting around 1937 bottom operated levers were installed. I wonder
if Ed
has any better data on these changes?

The cars I am modeling came from lots 1629 and 2355 so base on the
photos
bottom operated levers are required. I'm wondering if the Carmer type
or top
operated lots would have been changed later in life? I'm guessing the
answer
is maybe.

Brian, it would depend on whether their couplers were later replaced
with bottom-operated type Es, in which case bottom-operated rotary
uncoupling mechanisms would have been required. AC&F continued to use
Carmer levers long after most other car owners stopped doing so; in
fact, some railroads that got USRA cars from the feds during WW I
disliked the Carmer levers so much that they replaced them in the 1920s
with top-operated rotary uncouplers.

Richard Hendrickson