Date   

Re: gondolas of coal

walter kierzkowski <cathyk@...>
 

Guys just took a peek into page from the July 1897 ORE and the Delaware, Susquehanna, and Schuylkill RR Coal gondola 1001 to 2513 a total of 1513 COAL GONDOLAS LISTED NOTHING ABOUT HOPPER BOTTEMS...Walt K.

----- Original Message -----
From: Westerfield
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: gondolas of coal


NYC and subsidiaries had 16,500 inside stake wooden coal gons built in 1903-6, many used in rotary dumpers. They were specifically designed with recessed grab irons for clearance. See Mainline Modeler 6/84. - Al


Re: gondolas of coal

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

NYC and subsidiaries had 16,500 inside stake wooden coal gons built in 1903-6, many used in rotary dumpers. They were specifically designed with recessed grab irons for clearance. See Mainline Modeler 6/84. - Al


Re: gondolas of coal

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

I apologize to the Group for the wasted bandwidth, but the revised Yahoo format has me buffaloed. There was just too big a gap between my comments and Elden Gatwood's so that I thought some would surmise that I had written nothing - of course, even after reading my comments, some may still think that I have contributed nothing.

Tim Gilbert

Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:


Group;
It would be interesting to examine fleet development in individual railroads
based on their histories with coal and coke movement (in particular) and the
particulars of that resource. Given that the PRR had extensive connection
with the bituminous trade, and with so much of that going to large industrial
users, who had a big reason to have efficient unloading procedures, it is not
hard to see why they rapidly abandoned development of additional drop bottom
or low side gondolas in favor of a large and effective open hopper fleet.
The PRR's gon fleet quickly developed into one oriented around non-mineral
loads as a result. Other railroads with far different experiences with
mineral loads had little reason to go to the extreme of developing a big
standard hopper fleet, so may have had little impetus to develop options
(like open hoppers) that would prevent them from using the cars in other
service, like a gon could be used. The PRR had almost no bottom-doored
gondolas after the mid-30's, while other roads had entire fleets of them.
It'd make a nice article!

Elden,

Perhaps, a summary of ownership of the type of gons would be helpful.

According to the AAR Car Service Division, there were 306,333 Gons owned by Class I RR's in the US on December 31st, 1948 (vs. 571,919 Hoppers either Covered or Open-Top - the open top include Ore Cars).

There were 305,501 Gons listed in the "Recapitulation of Car Equipment" in the April 1949 ORER. Basically, the car types based upon their Mechanical Designations may be sub-divided into three sub-types: - 1) Solid Bottom; 2) Side Dump; and 3) Center Dump. The Solid Bottom Gons could be further divided by either being type "GT" ("An open type car having high sides and solid bottom, suitable for unloading coal on dumping machines only, but not suitable for the mill trade"). Below is the split of gons owned by region into the four types:

Solid Bottom Drop Bottom
GT's Other Side Dump Center Dump Total
New England - 234 1,523 1,227 2,984
Great Lakes 605 47,922 93 888 49,508
Central East - 93,947 233 6 94,186

Pocahontas 3,257 10,432 50 5,484 19,223
Southern 626 22,337 6,563 15,708 45,231

Northwest - 7,159 16,568 - 23,737
Central West 209 8,786 42,530 619 52,144
Southwest - 15,097 3,390 11 18,498

Total Class I 5,097 205,514 70,947 23,943 305,501

The majority of GT Gons were owned by the RR's in the Pocahontas Region (2,004 by the VGN and 1,653 by the N&W - the C&O designated no cars as GT gons). The ERIE owned 596 of the 605 GT's in the Great Lakes Region.
About 60% of the Side Dump Gons were owned by the Central West RR's (8,761 by the ATSF, 8,434 by the CB&Q, 7,709 by the SP-Pac Lines, 5,666 by the UP & UCR, and 3,876 by the RI). The MILW had 9,006 side dump gons while other Northwest RR's having significant amounts included the NP with 3,573 and the GN with 2,197. In the Southern Region, the IC owned 3,587 side dump gons and the L&N 1,892. In the New England Region, the B&M owned 1,256 of the Region's 1,523 Side Dump Gons.

Almost two-thirds of the nation's 23,943 Center Dump Gons were owned by roads in the Southern Region - almost all by either the L&N (9,924) or the SOU (5,716). Others roads having a significant number of Center Drop Gons were the N&W (5,451) and the New Haven (1,138).

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert



Yahoo! Groups Links









Re: gondolas of coal

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Group;
It would be interesting to examine fleet development in individual railroads
based on their histories with coal and coke movement (in particular) and the
particulars of that resource. Given that the PRR had extensive connection
with the bituminous trade, and with so much of that going to large industrial
users, who had a big reason to have efficient unloading procedures, it is not
hard to see why they rapidly abandoned development of additional drop bottom
or low side gondolas in favor of a large and effective open hopper fleet.
The PRR's gon fleet quickly developed into one oriented around non-mineral
loads as a result. Other railroads with far different experiences with
mineral loads had little reason to go to the extreme of developing a big
standard hopper fleet, so may have had little impetus to develop options
(like open hoppers) that would prevent them from using the cars in other
service, like a gon could be used. The PRR had almost no bottom-doored
gondolas after the mid-30's, while other roads had entire fleets of them.
It'd make a nice article!
























Elden,

Perhaps, a summary of ownership of the type of gons would be helpful.

According to the AAR Car Service Division, there were 306,333 Gons owned by Class I RR's in the US on December 31st, 1948 (vs. 571,919 Hoppers either Covered or Open-Top - the open top include Ore Cars).

There were 305,501 Gons listed in the "Recapitulation of Car Equipment" in the April 1949 ORER. Basically, the car types based upon their Mechanical Designations may be sub-divided into three sub-types: - 1) Solid Bottom; 2) Side Dump; and 3) Center Dump. The Solid Bottom Gons could be further divided by either being type "GT" ("An open type car having high sides and solid bottom, suitable for unloading coal on dumping machines only, but not suitable for the mill trade"). Below is the split of gons owned by region into the four types:

Solid Bottom Drop Bottom
GT's Other Side Dump Center Dump Total
New England - 234 1,523 1,227 2,984
Great Lakes 605 47,922 93 888 49,508
Central East - 93,947 233 6 94,186

Pocahontas 3,257 10,432 50 5,484 19,223
Southern 626 22,337 6,563 15,708 45,231

Northwest - 7,159 16,568 - 23,737
Central West 209 8,786 42,530 619 52,144
Southwest - 15,097 3,390 11 18,498

Total Class I 5,097 205,514 70,947 23,943 305,501

The majority of GT Gons were owned by the RR's in the Pocahontas Region (2,004 by the VGN and 1,653 by the N&W - the C&O designated no cars as GT gons). The ERIE owned 596 of the 605 GT's in the Great Lakes Region.

About 60% of the Side Dump Gons were owned by the Central West RR's (8,761 by the ATSF, 8,434 by the CB&Q, 7,709 by the SP-Pac Lines, 5,666 by the UP & UCR, and 3,876 by the RI). The MILW had 9,006 side dump gons while other Northwest RR's having significant amounts included the NP with 3,573 and the GN with 2,197. In the Southern Region, the IC owned 3,587 side dump gons and the L&N 1,892. In the New England Region, the B&M owned 1,256 of the Region's 1,523 Side Dump Gons.

Almost two-thirds of the nation's 23,943 Center Dump Gons were owned by roads in the Southern Region - almost all by either the L&N (9,924) or the SOU (5,716). Others roads having a significant number of Center Drop Gons were the N&W (5,451) and the New Haven (1,138).

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Re: Attention Minneapolis & St. Louis Modelers (WAY Off Topic)

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Thanks Shawn, WE know about this product. What surprised me was that
Lombard Hobbies had commissioned Athearn to do the CGW motors in the
original paint scheme.
Clark Propst


Attention Minneapolis & St. Louis Modelers (WAY Off Topic)

Shawn Beckert
 

List,

The jpg shown below is definitely not a freight car, so don't look
if you're going to be terribly offended. But as I recall, there are
several modelers here who follow the Minneapolis and St. Louis,
so you might be interested in this forthcoming Athearn product. I
don't remember who the M&StL people are - I think Gene Green
is one - but if you're not on the diesel list you'll probably never
know these are coming - and I believe it's the first time they've
ever been offered:

http://www.athearn.com/newsletter/080106/MSTL_F.jpg

To smooth Mike's ruffled feathers, this IS a steam-era product;
you just can't load freight in it <g>.

Back to your scheduled program...

Shawn Beckert


Re: gondolas of coal

Ted Larson
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

They took delivery in gondolas and had them emptied by hand. Labor
was cheap then - cheaper than building a trestle.
Advance apologies if this info comes from this list, I've lost track of
where I read it, but I've read reports that much coal from lake boats
was loaded to boxcars at Duluth-Superior, with unloading by hand into
trackside coal sheds.

I've noticed that very small towns rarely have elevated trestles. I
have only seen these in larger towns or cities. The only small town
that I've seen one in was where the railroad went through a fill, and
there was ready made elevation difference between track grade and
ground level.


Re: gondolas of coal

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Group;
It would be interesting to examine fleet development in individual railroads
based on their histories with coal and coke movement (in particular) and the
particulars of that resource. Given that the PRR had extensive connection
with the bituminous trade, and with so much of that going to large industrial
users, who had a big reason to have efficient unloading procedures, it is not
hard to see why they rapidly abandoned development of additional drop bottom
or low side gondolas in favor of a large and effective open hopper fleet.
The PRR's gon fleet quickly developed into one oriented around non-mineral
loads as a result. Other railroads with far different experiences with
mineral loads had little reason to go to the extreme of developing a big
standard hopper fleet, so may have had little impetus to develop options
(like open hoppers) that would prevent them from using the cars in other
service, like a gon could be used. The PRR had almost no bottom-doored
gondolas after the mid-30's, while other roads had entire fleets of them.
It'd make a nice article!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Jerry
Dziedzic
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:00 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: gondolas of coal

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:
It looks like D&H was the only railroad to offer
anthracite in gons.
L&NE also rostered a sizable fleet of gons. Given its service
territory, coal was a very likely load. I'm away from my reference
materials, but I recall photographic evidence confirming this. I also
recall plenty of paper documentation from Susquehanna train lists and
delivery receipts.

Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ







Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: gondolas of coal

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

List,

Add to the list the C&O, who shipped great quantities of coal in gonds. Photos of the PRR coal loading facilities on the Great Lakes contain long strings of such loads.

Fred Freitas

walter kierzkowski <cathyk@...> wrote:
The NYO&W also used gondolas for coal..possibly the Erie. as well... I have photo's of O&W gondolas with coal loads... Walt K.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Dziedzic
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: gondolas of coal

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:
It looks like D&H was the only railroad to offer
anthracite in gons.
L&NE also rostered a sizable fleet of gons. Given its service
territory, coal was a very likely load. I'm away from my reference
materials, but I recall photographic evidence confirming this. I also
recall plenty of paper documentation from Susquehanna train lists and
delivery receipts.

Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ








---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.


Re: gondolas of coal

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
"...only the western road offered coal in gons."

Ed, be careful with your generalizations, as this one is simply not
true. Jerry and Walt have already identified LNE and NYO&W gons in
anthracite service, as well as the Erie gons that have been discussed
on this list before. Additionally, several other eastern roads used
large numbers of gons in coal service, notably C&O (familiar to HO
scale modelers as the MDC 40 ft gon with oval ends) and L&N. The lead
photo of the "Big Emma" article in the latest issue of Classic Trains
is especially illustrative of the L&N coal fleet, showing the range of
cars that they used - gons, USRA twin hoppers and "clones", and offset
hoppers.


Ben Hom


Re: gondolas of coal

walter kierzkowski <cathyk@...>
 

The NYO&W also used gondolas for coal..possibly the Erie. as well... I have photo's of O&W gondolas with coal loads... Walt K.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Dziedzic
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: gondolas of coal


--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:
> It looks like D&H was the only railroad to offer
> anthracite in gons.

L&NE also rostered a sizable fleet of gons. Given its service
territory, coal was a very likely load. I'm away from my reference
materials, but I recall photographic evidence confirming this. I also
recall plenty of paper documentation from Susquehanna train lists and
delivery receipts.

Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ


Re: gondolas of coal

Jerry Dziedzic
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:
It looks like D&H was the only railroad to offer
anthracite in gons.
L&NE also rostered a sizable fleet of gons. Given its service
territory, coal was a very likely load. I'm away from my reference
materials, but I recall photographic evidence confirming this. I also
recall plenty of paper documentation from Susquehanna train lists and
delivery receipts.

Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ


Re: Boxcar End Doors - question

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

I suspect that the close fit in an end door box car was a design
parameter of the bus. Like all U.S. warships (until the super
carriers) were a close fit in the Panama Canal.

regards,

Andy Miller



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:16 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Boxcar End Doors - question



Peter Bowers wrote:
> There is a neat picture or two in BC Archives of the doors
open and a
> bus being unloaded.

There is one in my SP Freight Vol. 3 of a Greyhound bus being
unloaded--it is REALLY a close fit.

Tony Thompson Editor,

.

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=2554753&grpspId=1600169725&
msgId=55934&stime=1154405762&nc1=3848611&nc2=3848443&nc3=3848530>


Re: Boxcar End Doors - question

Tony Thompson
 

Peter Bowers wrote:
There is a neat picture or two in BC Archives of the doors open and a
bus being unloaded.
There is one in my SP Freight Vol. 3 of a Greyhound bus being unloaded--it is REALLY a close fit.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: NYC Box Car Heralds, c.1950

golden1014
 

Brian,

Got the answer--thanks for the help. From the CASO site:

"The oval "Lines" herald prior to November 1935 had a black
background and was replaced with the oval "System" herald in
November 1935."

This one applies to me: "Roman style "System" herald used between
November 1935 and August 1955. Between November 1935 and March 1944 -
the roman "System" herald had a black background. The black
background officially removed from the roman "System" herald
starting March 2, 1944."

"Gothic style "System" herald used between August 1955 and May 1959.
The black herald background returned with the gothic "System"
herald. (NOTE: The gothic "System" herald was also used prior to
1955 on Pacemaker boxcars and bay window cabooses."

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL




--- In STMFC@..., "Brian J Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:

John, you didn't mention if you CASO site, but if you haven't this
link
might shed some light.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm

However others, Jeff English I suspect, will have to verify the
accuracy of
the information.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Boxcar End Doors - question

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

At 02:44 PM 7/31/06, you wrote:
Other railroads had much larger fleets of such end door boxcars. What
did they haul in them? I could guess (lumber, certain vehicles,
peacock feathers), yet I would like to hear from the experts on this
list.
There is a neat picture or two in BC Archives of the doors open and a bus being unloaded.

Peter Bowers


--
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Re: Box car doors....open or closed

Eric
 

Mike Brock posted:

"I will note that Union Pacific rule 855 from the 1946 rule book states:

Freight Service:

"The doors of empty cars in trains must be kept closed. The doors of loaded
cars must be kept closed and properly secured unless required to be left
open for ventilation"."

Is there any provision on freight cars in our era for securing doors in the open or partially open
position for ventilation purposes while in transit?

Eric Petersson

________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
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New HO scale PRR stock car

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

Really neat car -- check out those trucks!

http://www.geocities.com/bkempins/ASMMain/CattleCar.html

Marty McGuirk


Re: gondolas of coal

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

A friend of mine has waybills that outline deliveries made to his father on a
team tracks that consist of exclusively loads of sand, gravel and other
building materials, all in gondolas, during the late 40's thru late 50's.



Elden Gatwood



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
walter kierzkowski
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 2:23 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] gondolas of coal



I remember back as a you teenager in the fifties that Mills bros got
delievery of gondolas full of sand and also the Northwest Breaker got whiote
sand in gondolas for cleaning the coal..this was all hand unloaded... early
Fifties. Walt K.

----- Original Message -----
From: Miller, Andrew S.
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:41 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] gondolas of coal

Ed,

I believe most RRs had side dump hoppers. They were used to deliver
ballast to track maintenance sites.

regards,

Andy Miller

________________________________

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of ed_mines
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:27 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] gondolas of coal

(Erie had a few hoppers that dumped coal to the
side.)

I

.

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=2554753&grpspId=1600169725&
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=2554753&grpspId=1600169725&>
msgId=55920&stime=1154367025&nc1=3848601&nc2=3848432&nc3=3848527>


Re: Boxcar End Doors - question

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Ditto for fire engines (American LaFrance, for one, in X30's), long lumber
loads, and pre-assembled trusses.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Andy
Sperandeo
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 3:15 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Boxcar End Doors - question

Jim Mische asked about the uses of end-door boxcars. These cars were often
used for automobiles and trucks - some early versions were introduced for
carriages and wagons - and in WWII they were also used to carry large
aircraft assemblies.

so long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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