That was Jim Mischke asking ­ sorry for the bad typing, Jim. - Andy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim Mische asked about the uses of end-door boxcars. These cars were often
used for automobiles and trucks ­ some early versions were introduced for
carriages and wagons ­ and in WWII they were also used to carry large
aircraft assemblies.

so long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142

Ed,

On 11/27/1952, PRR Gr Gon #281641 arrived on the Suncook Valley with anthracite coal for a coal dealer in Pittsfield NH who did not have "hopper" unloading facilities. #281641 probably was not originated on the PRR either - the PRR did not go to Scranton although it did serve Wilkes-Barre. This is just one example of a New England coal dealer preferring gons to hoppers.

The only hoppers the B&M owned until 1929 were 100 smallish Seley Hoppers built in 1905, which were being phased out as too small in the late 1920's. Instead, the B&M relied on gondolas for loading of coal transshipped from the Chesapeake, Delaware and New York Bays to inland points. These gons included 4,588 solid bottom WUF gons (with removable sideboards) in the #21400-24987 & #39000-39999 series; about 1,200 "Pratt Pattern" solid bottom Gons (whose sides folded down to facilitate manual unloading); 3,000 40'-41'6" drop bottom gons of the #80000-80499 series (IH 3'10"), the #81000-80499 series (IH 4' 4") and #90000-91499 (IH 4' 8") USRA gons.

Tim Gilbert

ed_mines wrote:

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, "Miller, Andrew S." <asmiller@...> wrote:

I will have to admit that this is entirely speculation, but I have
seen photos in the 20s and 30s of retail dealers of coal or gravel,
particularly in the south, that did not have a hopper dumping

trestle.

They took delivery in gondolas and had them emptied by hand. Labor

was

cheap then - cheaper than building a trestle.

Ed Mines added:

Andy, I've wondered about this too, particularly for anthracite coal
in the northeast.

If I was loading sacks with coal I'd prefer to do it from a gon rather
than dump the coal on the ground. Coal on the ground would end up with
a lot of junk in it. It would be impossible to move most hoppers with
coal beneath them. (Erie had a few hoppers that dumped coal to the
side.)

I sure wouldn't want to go into a hopper either.

I think many rural customers would use coal as a secondary heating
source during the winter. It might be hard to keep the wood pile up
with snow on the ground. Their dealers might be more likely to buy
coal in gons. It looks like D&H was the only railroad to offer
anthracite in gons.

A few years ago a man offered freight car STMFC photos taken in
Indianapolis. There were a lot of PRR & NYC hoppers - and MILW gons. I
guess Indianapolis is midway bewtween coal fields and only the western
road offered coal in go

B&O had a small group of class M-57b boxcars, 50 foot double door
boxcars with end doors on the non-brake end. B&O never ordered any
more, so evidently there was little demand on B&O for this feature. In
later years, some such doors were welded shut.

Other railroads had much larger fleets of such end door boxcars. What
did they haul in them? I could guess (lumber, certain vehicles,
peacock feathers), yet I would like to hear from the experts on this
list.

Was this Jay Williams/Big Four or someone else offering these photos? I'm always looking for additional photo sources, especially of the NYC (and particularly photos of cars seen on the Toledo & Ohio Central, or NYC/T&OC cars in general).

Mark Plank

I remember back as a you teenager in the fifties that Mills bros got delievery of gondolas full of sand and also the Northwest Breaker got whiote sand in gondolas for cleaning the coal..this was all hand unloaded... early Fifties. Walt K.

Ed,

I believe most RRs had side dump hoppers. They were used to deliver
ballast to track maintenance sites.

regards,

Andy Miller



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of ed_mines
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:27 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] gondolas of coal



(Erie had a few hoppers that dumped coal to the
side.)

I

.

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=2554753&grpspId=1600169725&
msgId=55920&stime=1154367025&nc1=3848601&nc2=3848432&nc3=3848527>

--- In STMFC@..., "Miller, Andrew S." <asmiller@...> wrote:

I will have to admit that this is entirely speculation, but I have
seen photos in the 20s and 30s of retail dealers of coal or gravel,
particularly in the south, that did not have a hopper dumping

trestle.

They took delivery in gondolas and had them emptied by hand. Labor

was

cheap then - cheaper than building a trestle.

Andy, I've wondered about this too, particularly for anthracite coal
in the northeast.

If I was loading sacks with coal I'd prefer to do it from a gon rather
than dump the coal on the ground. Coal on the ground would end up with
a lot of junk in it. It would be impossible to move most hoppers with
coal beneath them. (Erie had a few hoppers that dumped coal to the
side.)

I sure wouldn't want to go into a hopper either.

I think many rural customers would use coal as a secondary heating
source during the winter. It might be hard to keep the wood pile up
with snow on the ground. Their dealers might be more likely to buy
coal in gons. It looks like D&H was the only railroad to offer
anthracite in gons.

A few years ago a man offered freight car STMFC photos taken in
Indianapolis. There were a lot of PRR & NYC hoppers - and MILW gons. I
guess Indianapolis is midway bewtween coal fields and only the western
road offered coal in gons.

Ed

On Jul 31, 2006, at 8:48 AM, MOFWCABOOSE@... wrote:

(2) One of the odder photos in my collection is of a Gulf, Mobile & Ohio
single-sheathed boxcar with a wooden door that has a corrugated door panel in the
lowermost part of the door. Reading about door reinforcements suggests that
this might be the reason for it.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

John, I know the car you're describing, as I got a print of it from you many years ago. It was an ex-Alton "War Emergency" AAR box car, and (as on similar cars built for the Santa Fe and other RRs) the upper part of the door was made of wood to save sheet steel, which was in short supply ca. 1942-'43 owing to World War II, but the lower panel was corrugated steel as that's the part of the door to which the bottom rollers, starting lever, and door lock were attached

Richard Hendrickson

Another state heard from.... as a 1950's American Flyer loving kid, I
watched every freight I could get my eyes on in central Minnesota,
mostly NP and GN. I remember open doors on moving boxcars to be
common, so much so that I was surprised when I heard that there was a
rule against it.

Not only that but there are no less than 13 box cars with open doors
showing. Interesting.

Ted Larson

I will have to admit that this is entirely speculation, but I have
seen photos in the 20s and 30s of retail dealers of coal or gravel,
particularly in the south, that did not have a hopper dumping trestle.
They took delivery in gondolas and had them emptied by hand. Labor was
cheap then - cheaper than building a trestle. In this case, the low
side of the gon made it easier and faster to unload the car. To
support this theory, consider that the practice started to disappear
when labor became scarce during WWII and once the minimum wage law was
enacted.

These cars were also common on the ACL and SAL. Ertyl made a nice
model of one based upon a MEC prototype, during their brief foray into
HO (Ertyl, not MEC).


regards,

Andy Miller

Great photo, but who idea was it to plant the #$%# tree right in the
middle of the photo op site? ;-)

regards,

Andy Miller



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Bud Rindfleisch
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 6:34 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Nice photo of a freight



Schuyler,
That is a nice shot! That was a classy diesel paint scheme that
Erie
black & yellow.
Surprised at the number of boxcars running with open doors, the
"bo's"
must have been warm that day! Where was this location?
Bud
Rindfleisch

Two thoughts come to mind regarding this discussion:

(1) Maybe those cars with all the open doors had been carrying something
really smelly, and the doors were left open to air them out.

(2) One of the odder photos in my collection is of a Gulf, Mobile & Ohio
single-sheathed boxcar with a wooden door that has a corrugated door panel in the
lowermost part of the door. Reading about door reinforcements suggests that
this might be the reason for it.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

John,I believe that the black background went out of favor in the early
to mid forties.I will defer to Jeff or Ben however.Armand Premo

[Original Message]
From: Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Date: 7/30/2006 8:57:33 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Open doors [Was: Nice photo of a freight]

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

What we're interested in here, so that it can be reflected in our
modeling, is what common practice was in the steam era with regard to
leaving doors open on empty box cars . . . As I have a large number of
photos of Santa Fe freight trains and freight yards in the 1940s and
'50s, I have just spent an hour or so examining those photos. Here's
what I found. In the photos of trains in motion, there are exactly no,
zero, nada, box cars with doors open. In the yard photos, in which a
total of several hundred box cars are visible, exactly two had doors
part way open.

Interesting point. I've just spent time reviewing six John
Signor SP books, along with about 2000 of my own SP photos, all
transition era, with a view to this same issue.
I did not find a single open door in a mainline train. Open
doors are in yards, shops, or on sidings; or in some cases on trains
clearly identified as locals. None whatsoever in mainline trains. I
guess Rule 866 really was in force on the SP.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony,
We could play gotcha all night. It took me three minutes to find examples
in the Shasta Division Book by Signor. What is that car behind 4277 on
page 224 or those three cars in the freight on page 287. Both examples are
mainline. If a blind man can find them then surely you can. I think this
subject has been hashed and rehashed and should come its timely end don't
you.

Art Marr
Reno, NV

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

What we're interested in here, so that it can be reflected in our modeling, is what common practice was in the steam era with regard to leaving doors open on empty box cars . . . As I have a large number of photos of Santa Fe freight trains and freight yards in the 1940s and '50s, I have just spent an hour or so examining those photos. Here's what I found. In the photos of trains in motion, there are exactly no, zero, nada, box cars with doors open. In the yard photos, in which a total of several hundred box cars are visible, exactly two had doors part way open.

Interesting point. I've just spent time reviewing six John Signor SP books, along with about 2000 of my own SP photos, all transition era, with a view to this same issue.
I did not find a single open door in a mainline train. Open doors are in yards, shops, or on sidings; or in some cases on trains clearly identified as locals. None whatsoever in mainline trains. I guess Rule 866 really was in force on the SP.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

John, you didn't mention if you CASO site, but if you haven't this link
might shed some light.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm

However others, Jeff English I suspect, will have to verify the accuracy of
the information.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Examining the video, The Big Boy Collection, 5 trains with a total of 278 box cars were viewed. One had a door partially open. The shots were taken in 1953. No sign of a fork lift <g>. Incidentally, these trains were seen either on the mainline [ not a local ] or entering a yard from the main.

Mike Brock

Gentlemen,

I'm finishing about a half dozen HO NYC cars and am in
need of help with heralds. Am using the new Speedwitch
decal set on all the house cars--one each 1937 (Red
Caboose), 1937 Modified (Intermountain) and 1944
(Branchline). Shop dates on all cars are 1949/1950 as
my target layout date is mid-1950.

Q: Would the cars for this target date have the clear
herald, or the herald with the black background? I'm
using the P&LE marks for the '37 car. I bought the
Branchline car decorated for NYC but didn't like the
factory paint and am refinishing it, and I recall that
it had a clear herald. Have done a little internet
research and am more confused. Any help is greatly
appreciated.

John



John Golden
O'Fallon, IL

Hosting the St. Louis RPM Meet
25-26 Aug 06, 9AM to 9PM
Gateway Convention Center
One Gateway Center Dr.
Collinsville, IL 62234

Updated as of 01 Jun 06: http://www.pbase.com/golden1014

On Jul 30, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Paul Nunes wrote:

Hahaha..I wonder how many box car doors our friend

Peter ever opened. By the way Tony, those "idiot" fork
lift drivers who slamed the doors open, were for the
most part very experienced at their job and would
never waste time to open a door by such means if it
freely rolled by manpower alone. I personally have
struggled to open those doors using 2x4 as a lever and
finally after several minutes of pulling & pushing,
called in the forklift only as a last resort to get
the stupid doors open so the crews could off load the
cargo. No "stupid" people were involved. Only every
day workers trying to earn a living. Its a fact the
doors did not freely roll after the hardware started
to rust, lower tracks got bent from being hit by
trucks, forklifts & cargo and on & on...Welcome to the
"real" world....Paul(spsmoke)

I'm not sure why the discussion of this topic has descended to the level of personal insults, but I think it's time to call a halt to what strikes me as offensive reverse snobbery.

Most of us on this list, whatever our professions/occupations and past experience, have done blue collar work for a living at one time or another and are not contemptuous of "working stiffs." That's certainly true of Tony Thompson, who spent a summer working at a reefer ice dock, one of the most physically demanding jobs one can imagine. At the same time, the fact that "working stiffs" have sometimes been careless and abusive of freight cars and other RR property, sometimes needlessly so, is too well established to warrant discussion.

What we're interested in here, so that it can be reflected in our modeling, is what common practice was in the steam era with regard to leaving doors open on empty box cars. Personal anecdotes (especially those that post-date the steam era) are not especially useful and certainly are not conclusive. I've already cited the official policy of the Santa Fe in this regard. I have no doubt that most other railroads had similar policies, though enforcement may have varied from place to place. How rigorously observed was the Santa Fe's injunction that box car doors should be closed and latched before the car was moved? As I have a large number of photos of Santa Fe freight trains and freight yards in the 1940s and '50s, I have just spent an hour or so examining those photos. Here's what I found. In the photos of trains in motion, there are exactly no, zero, nada, box cars with doors open. In the yard photos, in which a total of several hundred box cars are visible, exactly two had doors part way open. Practices may well have varied on other railroads and in other parts of the country, but as a Santa Fe modeler I'm going to have almost every door on my box car models securely closed. I may have a car or two with partly open doors, but I'll run them only in locals where they could have just been picked up from the points where they were unloaded.

Depending on the railroad and location you model, you may adopt a somewhat different approach on this issue. However, whatever you do should be based on as much documentation as you can find, not merely on a single photo and certainly not on what you or someone else thinks they remember from forty or fifty years ago.

In any case, let's keep future contributions on this subject at a reasonable level of civility and mutual respect.

Richard Hendrickson