Mike Brock wrote:

I will note that Union Pacific rule 855 from the 1946 rule book states:
"The doors of empty cars in trains must be kept closed. The doors of loaded
cars must be kept closed and properly secured unless required to be left
open for ventilation".

The SP rule book in force in the early 1950s states in Rule 866:

"Freight conductors are responsible for the security of freight while in their charge. Seals and fastenings of cars must be examined and record made of imperfect or missing seals, also of seals that may be applied by them. Doors of empty cars in trains must be closed and fastened. Doors of loaded cars must be closed and sealed properly unless left open for ventilation."

Being in the rule book, trainmen could be examined on this point; and trainmasters and others were presumably at least somewhat interested in enforcing it. To suggest that no one bothered to close car doors seems to me entirely wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

While I'm at it, let's use the subject line to indicate what one's message is about. Many of the recent messages are more associated with general box car door operation rather than the Erie frt train. Thanks.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

At 07:42 PM 7/30/06, you wrote:

Hahaha..I wonder how many box car doors our friend Peter ever opened.

More than I'd like to count. Probably the reason the doors were not as bad as some of the cars you experienced was they were in grain service and generally they had not experienced mechanical help to open or close them. Double door lumber cars were bad and had reinforcing put on the doors so forklifts could be used. By the late sixties a lot of doors on cars built prior to 1960 were less than perfect in their operation. US cars were worse than the Cdn ones but my experience with them was less frequent.

Peter Bowers


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/06

Well...I see the photo of the Erie frt train with open doors on box cars has generated quite a few messages. I would caution the members to not criticize other members for comments that disagree with their own. If your job required you to open box car doors between 1900 and 1960 your experiences are within scope. What happened after 1960 is not. If you had to enlist the services of a bull dozer to get a box car door open...or even the local fire dept...such information is certainly within scope. However, speculative comments regarding how well railroad workers on other RR's or even other areas of the same RR performed duties of opening car doors are better off not included. OTOH, real evidence of door closing [ or not ] is welcome because this group is interested in modeling real RR's and their activities.

I will note that Union Pacific rule 855 from the 1946 rule book states:

Freight Service:

"The doors of empty cars in trains must be kept closed. The doors of loaded cars must be kept closed and properly secured unless required to be left open for ventilation".

I have not the slightest idea of Erie rules for doors. And, neither I nor anyone else that I'm aware of has conducted a study of how well the UP's workers obeyed rule 855. I will note that, my observations of ft trains on the UP indicate that they followed it rather well. Photos of UP frt trains certainly don't exhibit very many box cars with open doors...that I've seen. Perhaps Erie crews were a mite bit lazy [ for Schuyler <G> ].

When I have a chance I'll view the 4 complete frt trains in the video Big Boy Collection to see how well UP followed rule 855 in 1953.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner [ and jailer ]

Art Marr wrote:

In the real world when the boss says get it open you do whatever it takes and if he says use a fork you use a fork. Has nothing to do with fools but actually getting the job done.After all you can't have a crew standing round on the clock because of one stubborn door. If the doors had been properly maintained then there wouldn't have been rust or sticking doors and the first use of a forklift would not have been necessary

Of course I'm well aware that you do what you have to do. I have seen "fools" use a forklift to open several car doors without checking to see if they can be opened by hand--thereafter of course they no longer CAN be so opened.
I love "properly maintained." What about properly operated? Of course it was bound to be the railroad's fault.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Hahaha..I wonder how many box car doors our friend

Peter ever opened. By the way Tony, those "idiot" fork
lift drivers who slamed the doors open, were for the
most part very experienced at their job and would
never waste time to open a door by such means if it
freely rolled by manpower alone. I personally have
struggled to open those doors using 2x4 as a lever and
finally after several minutes of pulling & pushing,
called in the forklift only as a last resort to get
the stupid doors open so the crews could off load the
cargo. No "stupid" people were involved. Only every
day workers trying to earn a living. Its a fact the
doors did not freely roll after the hardware started
to rust, lower tracks got bent from being hit by
trucks, forklifts & cargo and on & on...Welcome to the
"real" world....Paul(spsmoke)




--- Arthur Marr <ab2lm@...> wrote:

[Original Message]
From: PBowers <waiting@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Date: 7/30/2006 3:28:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Nice photo of a freight

At 05:28 PM 7/30/06, you wrote:

I also know from working at a lumber mill

that about the only

way to get a lot of doors open or
closed was with a come-a-long or a forklift. It

might have been the

rule, but for the car knockers, one not easily

followed.

I might have missed it but I haven't seen anyone

mention that the

door was braked until you pulled the door lever

over to engage the

roller. Only the odd car needed *extra* help. Any

use of forklifts

to move the door was working without the lever

activated roller and

was a result of laziness. Eventually the damaged

doors needed a lot

of extra help. Anyway that's what happened in our

part of Canada.

Peter Bowers

Believe it or not Peter, although most were blue
collar workers, and
except for some of us college students, we and they
had a grasp on the
proper door operating procedures and laziness had
nothing to do with it.

Art Marr
Reno, NV





Yahoo! Groups Links


STMFC-unsubscribe@...

[Original Message]
From: PBowers <waiting@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Date: 7/30/2006 3:28:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Nice photo of a freight

At 05:28 PM 7/30/06, you wrote:

I also know from working at a lumber mill that about the only

way to get a lot of doors open or
closed was with a come-a-long or a forklift. It might have been the
rule, but for the car knockers, one not easily followed.

I might have missed it but I haven't seen anyone mention that the
door was braked until you pulled the door lever over to engage the
roller. Only the odd car needed *extra* help. Any use of forklifts
to move the door was working without the lever activated roller and
was a result of laziness. Eventually the damaged doors needed a lot
of extra help. Anyway that's what happened in our part of Canada.

Peter Bowers

Believe it or not Peter, although most were blue collar workers, and
except for some of us college students, we and they had a grasp on the
proper door operating procedures and laziness had nothing to do with it.

Art Marr
Reno, NV

At 05:28 PM 7/30/06, you wrote:

I also know from working at a lumber mill that about the only

way to get a lot of doors open or
closed was with a come-a-long or a forklift. It might have been the rule, but for the car knockers, one not easily followed.

I might have missed it but I haven't seen anyone mention that the door was braked until you pulled the door lever over to engage the roller. Only the odd car needed *extra* help. Any use of forklifts to move the door was working without the lever activated roller and was a result of laziness. Eventually the damaged doors needed a lot of extra help. Anyway that's what happened in our part of Canada.

Peter Bowers


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/06

were originally looking at 50s era box cars.

New box car doors of the type you describe could indeed be
moved by one man and did indeed slide during hard braking. In later
years, as you mention, rust was a problem, and those fools with the
fork lifts damaged, bent, and twisted the doors to make them REALLY
bad.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony,
In the real world when the boss says get it open you do whatever it takes
and if he says use a fork you use a fork. Has nothing to do with fools but
actually getting the job done.After all you can't have a crew standing
round on the clock because of one stubborn door. If the doors had been
properly maintained then there wouldn't have been rust or sticking doors
and the first use of a forklift would not have been necessary

Art Marr,
Reno, NV

Paul Nunes wrote:

>>>Art ,you are absolutely correct about the fact that the sliding
box car doors were not so easy to actually slide on the rails. They did not have modern roller bearing wheels on the bottom to roll on. Rather rusty steel rollers & as you mention, it frequently took a fork lift to push the doors open. This was true even up into the 70s on older equipment that I saw at Port Chicago during Nam war. The idea of these doors freely sliding during transit is absurd to say the least. Now on more modern equipment built after the 70s, I have no idea of what was used for door hardware so thats a different story, but we were originally looking at 50s era box cars.

New box car doors of the type you describe could indeed be moved by one man and did indeed slide during hard braking. In later years, as you mention, rust was a problem, and those fools with the fork lifts damaged, bent, and twisted the doors to make them REALLY bad.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Art ,you are absolutely correct about the fact that

the sliding box car doors were not so easy to actually
slide on the rails. They did not have modern roller
bearing wheels on the bottom to roll on. Rather rusty
steel rollers & as you mention, it frequently took a
fork lift to push the doors open. This was true even
up into the 70s on older equipment that I saw at Port
Chicago during Nam war. The idea of these doors freely
sliding during transit is absurd to say the least. Now
on more modern equipment built after the 70s, I have
no idea of what was used for door hardware so thats a
different story, but we were originally looking at 50s
era box cars.......Paul(spsmoke)





--- Arthur Marr <ab2lm@...> wrote:

--- Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
wrote:

Paul Nunes wrote:

For your info..I spent many hours

trainwatching as

a kid in the early

50s..both SP & ATSF, and open doors on empty

boxcars were definately

VERY COMON. Maybe the rules changed in later

years, but it was not

that way in the fifties....

My experience watching SP freights in

the

early 1950s in
southern California is that doors were rarely if
ever open on mainline
trains. The Burbank and Saugus locals were

another

story. I would
concur with the earlier suggestion that doors

were

closed before trains
were dispatched out of yards.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature

Press,

Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony,
I'll concur with Paul on this one. I saw many a 'Bo
heading North in the
spring and south in the fall enjoying the scenery
from an open door through
Redding. This was especially true of the XMUG's. I
also know from working
at a lumber mill that about the only way to get a
lot of doors open or
closed was with a come-a-long or a forklift. It
might have been the rule,
but for the car knockers, one not easily followed.

Art Marr
Reno, NV







Yahoo! Groups Links


STMFC-unsubscribe@...

--- Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
wrote:

Paul Nunes wrote:

For your info..I spent many hours trainwatching as

a kid in the early

50s..both SP & ATSF, and open doors on empty

boxcars were definately

VERY COMON. Maybe the rules changed in later

years, but it was not

that way in the fifties....

My experience watching SP freights in the
early 1950s in
southern California is that doors were rarely if
ever open on mainline
trains. The Burbank and Saugus locals were another
story. I would
concur with the earlier suggestion that doors were
closed before trains
were dispatched out of yards.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press,
Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony,
I'll concur with Paul on this one. I saw many a 'Bo heading North in the
spring and south in the fall enjoying the scenery from an open door through
Redding. This was especially true of the XMUG's. I also know from working
at a lumber mill that about the only way to get a lot of doors open or
closed was with a come-a-long or a forklift. It might have been the rule,
but for the car knockers, one not easily followed.

Art Marr
Reno, NV

I've posted a bunch of new stuff at Castle Graphics, CB&Q steam locos, C&S steam, CB&Q wood freight cars & waycars, BN locos in Q paint and more...enjoy! http://www.castlegraphics.com


Cheers!


Jan Kohl

Castle Graphics

www.castlegraphics.com

Tony, then obviously things were different where

you lived than where I grew up in the bay area. As a
kid I could throw a rock out the window & hit the ATSF
tracks, yet for some reason the SP was my favorite,
maybe cause they still ran steam. Many hours trackside
at main line thru Albany & El Cerrito concurr the many
open doors (in both directions of travel). Common to
see the hitchikers sitting with feet dangling over the
side. My cousin had the SP schedules & we would ride
his Indian motorcycle to trackside to watch the reefer
blocks behind cab forwards. I became friends as a boy
with some conductors & switch crews & would cut school
to hang out in the caboose while they switched sidings
near my home. Also many cab rides in 0-6-0s at west
Oakland as they shoved box cars back & forth. A
different world back then. For the most part I
appreciate all the factual info offered here & I'm
always anxious to learn something new from others who
have done much research, however, I'm really turned
off by some who assune something is fact & state it as
such, when reality may be something quite different. I
dont care what someone has read in a rulebook or SAP
sheet. When you see it with your own eyes then its a
fact. I think its likely that rules changed over time
& possibly were applied/enforced differently in
different locations. (Thats a guess on my part, not a
known fact). Obviously others remember things as I do,
with many open doors spotted, So I dont think I am
having a dillusional dream. As sgt Friday used to say
"only the facts maam"....All thoughts are welcome, but
lets stay relevant as to what is a fact & what is
supposition.....Paul(spsmoke)





--- Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
wrote:

Paul Nunes wrote:

For your info..I spent many hours trainwatching as

a kid in the early

50s..both SP & ATSF, and open doors on empty

boxcars were definately

VERY COMON. Maybe the rules changed in later

years, but it was not

that way in the fifties....

My experience watching SP freights in the
early 1950s in
southern California is that doors were rarely if
ever open on mainline
trains. The Burbank and Saugus locals were another
story. I would
concur with the earlier suggestion that doors were
closed before trains
were dispatched out of yards.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press,
Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links


STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Paul Nunes wrote:

For your info..I spent many hours trainwatching as a kid in the early 50s..both SP & ATSF, and open doors on empty boxcars were definately VERY COMON. Maybe the rules changed in later years, but it was not that way in the fifties....

My experience watching SP freights in the early 1950s in southern California is that doors were rarely if ever open on mainline trains. The Burbank and Saugus locals were another story. I would concur with the earlier suggestion that doors were closed before trains were dispatched out of yards.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., "William Bryk" <wmbryk@...> wrote:

From 1958 to 1963, I lived along the main line of the Delaware &

Hudson in

Waterford, New York. The D&H ran just beyond the backyard fence

and I had a

clear view. I also watched every train that I heard coming by. I

assure

you that I saw many cars with open doors as they ran past, . . .

Among the trains that operated over that segment were many locals
dispatched out of Colonie. If I understand the rules as applied on
the D&H in the late 60s when I was first paying attention, doors
were not secured by the crews of the locals but by the car knockers
in the yard and/or the crew doing their make-up of a road train
(connecting air hoses and inspecting the brake test, etc.).

IOW, doors would be open on empties being returned to the first yard
along their journey back to the home road.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
(home of well-known rail historian and photographer Jim Shaughnessy)

Don,

Hope these help!

http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/F1/NS3238.JPG

http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/F1/NS3239.JPG

http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/F1/NS3241.JPG

Jim Brewer
www.pocahontasmodels.com

From 1958 to 1963, I lived along the main line of the Delaware & Hudson in
Waterford, New York. The D&H ran just beyond the backyard fence and I had a
clear view. I also watched every train that I heard coming by. I assure
you that I saw many cars with open doors as they ran past, enough that I
often opened the doors on the boxcars on my 4x8 027 layout so they looked
like the real ones on the D&H. Again, times have changed a lot in nearly
fifty years, but I recall what I saw. At least in the Northeast, if there
were operating rules against open doors, they were not enforced. Perhaps
someone more familiar with D&H operations can address this.

Regards,
William Bryk

For your info..I spent many hours trainwatching as

a kid in the early 50s..both SP & ATSF, and open doors
on empty boxcars were definately VERY COMON. Maybe the
rules changed in later years, but it was not that way
in the fifties....Paul(spsmoke)

I was equally surprised, John. It's always been my
understanding that
most RRs had specific instructions in their rule
books or employees'
timetables that empty cars were not to be run with
the doors open, as
it wasn't uncommon for violent starts ands stops to
send box car doors
sliding back and forth vigorously enough to override
or break the door
stops and depart from the car entirely, creating
(among other things) a
serious safety hazard. The Santa Fe rule book was
very explicit about
prohibiting this practice and officials were
periodically reminded to
see that the prohibition was enforced.

Richard Hendrickson.




Yahoo! Groups Links


STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Does anyone know what the details are on lateral roofwalks on these
cars? No laterals but just grabs, separate laterals, or attached? I
am unable to clearly see this on the photos I have, and don't trust
the Bowser instructions. Thanks.
Don Lewis