Date   

Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Tim O'Connor
 


How about bulkheads for submarine construction? General Dynamics in New London CT. Any other sub builders
out there?



On 12/22/2020 11:04 AM, mopacfirst wrote:
About the circular steel sheets --

Those could be cut sheets going to a head shop.  (This was forty or fifty years before the term 'head shop' took on a more popular meaning.)  Heads are formed by pressing, and bigger ones can be formed by a circular rolling motion where the press head gradually forms the solid curve by rotating the piece from the center outward.  Think of it as the 3D version of the three-roll press used to bend strip or shapes.  In my neck of the woods there is a head shop right off Highway 6 just south of Navasota, Texas.

Or they could be going to a tank shop for use as flat heads on non-pressure tanks.

Ron Merrick

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

mopacfirst
 

About the circular steel sheets --

Those could be cut sheets going to a head shop.  (This was forty or fifty years before the term 'head shop' took on a more popular meaning.)  Heads are formed by pressing, and bigger ones can be formed by a circular rolling motion where the press head gradually forms the solid curve by rotating the piece from the center outward.  Think of it as the 3D version of the three-roll press used to bend strip or shapes.  In my neck of the woods there is a head shop right off Highway 6 just south of Navasota, Texas.

Or they could be going to a tank shop for use as flat heads on non-pressure tanks.

Ron Merrick


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Mike Settle
 

Tim,

Olfa makes a nice circle cutter. Amazon.com : OLFA Rotary Circle Cutter : Office Products

Mike Settle


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Andy, all;

 

Carmers were changed out when they broke or wore out (they did not have a real bearing).

 

Given the beating they got in service, it has always surprised me when I see them in late photos.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Cich
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 8:51 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io; RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Thanks, Brian!

 

I have to go from memory here, but I think this is the PRR’s 3F-F1 “Kiesel” truck found on the first group of F29.

 

The later group had Buckeyes, for sure.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 9:16 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

This is what I’m talking about…

Attached photo side frame:

 

Lightbox side frame:

 

To my eye, there is a second hump for axles 2&3

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Cich <ajc5150@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:51 PM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>, <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Group;

 

I am pretty certain it is a F29.  All the details match up.

 

Tim is right, those triangular deck supports are the deal sealer.

 

There were two groups of F29, differing only in trucks and an extra air reservoir.  The first group had those PRR trucks with the heavy yoke up top; the later group had Buckeyes.  I included something about this in the PRR flat car book.

 

Railworks did both variants after I supplied them photos.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 9:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 


Perhaps but the F29 had rivets on the sides and especially those triangle deck supports, both of which can be seen in the photo.
Do you know of other depressed center flat cars with the deck supports?


On 12/21/2020 9:10 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI wrote:

The side frames appear different. The attached photo shows a singular upper frame, while the lightbox appears to have a more flexible, almost “Buckeye”, appearance. At least to my eye.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Cich <ajc5150@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:51 PM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>, <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Right on, Fenton!  I had forgotten that article.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of O Fenton Wells
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 10:10 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

In the old MR series by Alan Aramitage (sp?)
 He cut circles in plastic with a compass and a sharpened pointer to scribe the circle then snap it. I’ve done a few that way and after cleaning up with a file or sanding stick look pretty good

Fenton 



On Dec 22, 2020, at 9:55 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Perhaps but the F29 had rivets on the sides and especially those triangle deck supports, both of which can be seen in the photo.
Do you know of other depressed center flat cars with the deck supports?


On 12/21/2020 9:10 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI wrote:

The side frames appear different. The attached photo shows a singular upper frame, while the lightbox appears to have a more flexible, almost “Buckeye”, appearance. At least to my eye.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Cich <ajc5150@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:51 PM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>, <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Erie Gondola with Slope Sheets

akerboomk
 

I’d guess the one to the left of the Erie offset-side is MEC (“pine tree” emblem)

It doesn’t looks like the P&S emblem I am used to seeing.

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

O Fenton Wells
 

In the old MR series by Alan Aramitage (sp?)
 He cut circles in plastic with a compass and a sharpened pointer to scribe the circle then snap it. I’ve done a few that way and after cleaning up with a file or sanding stick look pretty good
Fenton 

On Dec 22, 2020, at 9:55 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



Perhaps but the F29 had rivets on the sides and especially those triangle deck supports, both of which can be seen in the photo.
Do you know of other depressed center flat cars with the deck supports?


On 12/21/2020 9:10 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI wrote:

The side frames appear different. The attached photo shows a singular upper frame, while the lightbox appears to have a more flexible, almost “Buckeye”, appearance. At least to my eye.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Cich <ajc5150@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:51 PM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>, <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Tim O'Connor
 


Perhaps but the F29 had rivets on the sides and especially those triangle deck supports, both of which can be seen in the photo.
Do you know of other depressed center flat cars with the deck supports?


On 12/21/2020 9:10 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI wrote:

The side frames appear different. The attached photo shows a singular upper frame, while the lightbox appears to have a more flexible, almost “Buckeye”, appearance. At least to my eye.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Cich <ajc5150@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:51 PM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>, <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Tim O'Connor
 


How would you go about cutting perfect circles from sheet styrene to model
that load? I'm thinking .020 sheet looks about right for those.




On 12/21/2020 8:51 PM, Andy Cich wrote:

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Erie Gondola with Slope Sheets

Benjamin Hom
 

Garth Groff wrote:
"Today I was scanning some interurban photos of the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley (Laurel Line). In the background of one I spotted this very unusual Erie hopper/gondola which I offer for your enlightenment, commentary and . . . well, why not say it . . . entertainment. 

The car appears to be about 40', but with sides around 9' above the rail, much lower than the adjacent hoppers (probably around 10' 3" or 10' 4" from the rails). At first glance this appears to be a gondola, but the end in front of the Lackawanna diesel shows clearly that it has sloped end sheets. As bad luck would have it, the fence railing runs right through the car number in this photo! The photo was shot in February 1952, but I see nothing like this in my 1958 ORER."

We've discussed these cars before - these gons are the basis of the Lindberg (later Mantua Heavies) gon.  They were originally built with drop doors, then later rebuilt to hopper-bottom gons.  Do a search in the group archives.


Ben Hom


Erie Gondola with Slope Sheets

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

Today I was scanning some interurban photos of the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley (Laurel Line). In the background of one I spotted this very unusual Erie hopper/gondola which I offer for your enlightenment, commentary and . . . well, why not say it . . . entertainment. 

The car appears to be about 40', but with sides around 9' above the rail, much lower than the adjacent hoppers (probably around 10' 3" or 10' 4" from the rails). At first glance this appears to be a gondola, but the end in front of the Lackawanna diesel shows clearly that it has sloped end sheets. As bad luck would have it, the fence railing runs right through the car number in this photo! The photo was shot in February 1952, but I see nothing like this in my 1958 ORER.

Bonus: although pretty fuzzy, the second hopper from the left appears to be a Pittsburgh & Shawmut car.

Amazing what you can find in the background sometimes.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


Re: Retainer Valves

Dave Lawler
 

Thank you Dennis, that certainly adds a new twist to being “prototypically correct”.

Dave Lawler

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: New item from YMW

Tony Thompson
 

Pierre Oliver wrote:

Todays blog posting
https://elgincarshops.blogspot.com/2020/12/this-has-been-overdue-jig.html
Heck of a good product idea. Hope it's well received.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: Retainer Valves

Tony Thompson
 


On Dec 21, 2020, at 1:34 PM, Dave Lawler wrote:

I understand that sometime in the mid 30s the government mandated that freight cars be fitted with AB brakes but many older cars
were not retro-fitted right away? 

   The mandate was for new construction and for "significant repairs or upgrades," obviously subject to interpretation. Older cars in many cases soldiered on until there was a ban on K systems in interchange.

Tony Thompson




Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Kenneth Montero
 

Compare with Funaro & Carmerlengo T-2 Heavy Duty Pennsylvania Freight PRR 3F-F1 KIESEL 6-Wheel TRUCKS from ebay site:
 
I did not find it as a separate on the F&C current website, but appears to be a part in kit no 8171, PRR F29 Depressed Center Flatcar ONE PIECE BODY with Decals and 3F-F1 Kissel Trucks Less Wheels.
 
Ken Montero

On 12/21/2020 9:15 PM BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:
 
 

This is what I’m talking about…

Attached photo side frame:

 

Lightbox side frame:

 

To my eye, there is a second hump for axles 2&3

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Cich <ajc5150@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:51 PM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>, <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood

 


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

This is what I’m talking about…

Attached photo side frame:

 

Lightbox side frame:

 

To my eye, there is a second hump for axles 2&3

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Cich <ajc5150@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:51 PM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>, <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The side frames appear different. The attached photo shows a singular upper frame, while the lightbox appears to have a more flexible, almost “Buckeye”, appearance. At least to my eye.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Cich <ajc5150@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:51 PM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>, <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood


Re: Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

Andy Cich
 

The linked photo sure does look like an F29. The sill steps, grab irons, poling pockets, and polling pocket rivets all match up.

 

About the only difference between the attached photo and the linked photo is the cut lever. Carmer on the attached photo and bottom operated on the linked photo.

 

 

Andy Cich

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tank heads on depressed center flat on EJE

 

Folks;

 

Does this flat car look like the PRR F29, also attached? (Granted, different trucks; the second order of F29 got Commonwealths).

 

http://www.ejearchive.com/index.php?/albums/official-loads/content/co-loads-331/lightbox/

 

Do those sheets look like tank or boiler heads?  Interesting loading technique!

 

Elden Gatwood

14481 - 14500 of 194717