Date   

Re: Which tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 25, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Jim and Lisa Hayes wrote:

Which tank cars are correct for the late '50s in the Northwest? No,
I'm not
looking for specific advice. I didn't live in the Northwest in the
1950s so
I can't reach back into my own memories.
Most of the tank cars I buy/build are plain Jane black because that's
what
most of them were and I'm less likely to go wrong with them. I'd like
to
have one decorated with a flying red horse or a flying A or a
billboard
Sinclair or some such. But where do I look for the era and location
information I need to choose correct models? Where do I look to find
out if
Mobil or Flying A or Sinclair or whoever had gas stations here then?
Old
phone books? Business directories? Or ??? Suggestions gladly accepted.
Definitely not Mobil, which marketed only in the east and midwest at
that time. Sinclair did not market in the far west (Salt Lake City was
about as far west as they got). Associated Oil Co., the west coast
affiliate of Tidewater Associated, certainly did market in the
northwest, transporting petroleum products in AOX (but not TIDX or
TWOX) cars. I have a 1947 car interchange book from Bieber, CA, where
the WP handed off northbound traffic to the GN, and there was a steady
stream of tank cars from Shell of Calif. (SCCX, but not RPX or SEPX)
and Union Oil of Cailf. (UOCX). And, of course, lots of UTLX and GATX
cars, plus an occasional SHPX car.

Tank cars owned by oil companies that didn't market in the far west
also turned up occasionally. There is photographic evidence of
Magnolia cars on Cajon Pass, a Mid-Continet D-X car at San Luis Obispo,
and Conoco cars on the SP near Ventura, CA, where Conoco had an oil
field and bulk oil depot, and doubtless there were similar traffic
anomalies in the northwest as well, but you don't want to assume
anything without photographic or documentary evidence.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: KCS 15500 to 15599 rebuilt boxcar

Greg Martin
 

John golden replies:

"Hey Brian, All,

Has anyone investigated if the ends from a Branchline 40-ft. box car kit or
other mfr's kit can be used on
this car? It would be a lot of effort but would save an extraordinary amount
of cutting and scraping.
Thanks,
John"


Brian and all,

I think that is exactly what Brian is thinking and I know he is not alone as
one other participant mentioned the same thing to me at Cocoa Beach
afterwards.

I can tell you all, that I could sit you all three down at a table with
myself and I am confident I could remove those rungs complete in less time than
you could accurately remove the ends and replace them with the Branchline end.

I am not knocking your idea as you are all on the same page but the focus
here was on the road traveled, not the destination... 3^) But the model is
yours to do as you please as long as you send us a photo and bring them "BACK TO
THE BEACH" next year for round two!

Greg Martin


Re: KCS 15500 to 15599 rebuilt boxcar

Greg Martin
 

Brian writes:

"I'm working on this car from the Cocoa Beach clinic and I want to graft the
correct ends on the car. The drawing shows IDE 3/4 with rectangular top rib,
and the darts between the main ribs. I know there have been errors in MM
drawings before, so does anyone have a photo showing the ends of the car to
confirm.
Thanks.
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY"


Brian,

You can trust these drawings as I know (as many of us do) know the
draftsman. I had several conversations with Jeff prior to adding the drawings to my
packet.

TRUST ME!

Greg Martin


Re: GATC Trans-Flo Covered Hopper Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Pat can you describe the cars?

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Patrick Wider" <pwider@...>
I'm currently preparing an article on the General American Trans-Flo (flour) covered
hopper cars that were in the GACX 41000-41099 series (circa 1950s). These cars were
predecessors to GATC's Airslide cars. Does anyone know of scale models (kit or brass) that
may have been produced of these cars??? Thanks.
Pat Wider


Re: Which tank cars? - Another Idea

Shawn Beckert
 

Jim,

If you can find a copy of "Guide To Gasoline Company Logos", I'd
highly recommend getting it for your library:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0965573605/ref=nosim/104-3584321-0202307?n=283155

The first three editions of this have sold out, but you might find
one online at places like Bookfinder.com. This book gives capsule
histories of most of the gasoline companies, as well as the regions
they marketed their products in. An extremely useful book.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Which tank cars?

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Jim and Lisa Hayes wrote:


Which tank cars are correct for the late '50s in the Northwest? No, I'm not
looking for specific advice. I didn't live in the Northwest in the 1950s so
I can't reach back into my own memories.
Most of the tank cars I buy/build are plain Jane black because that's what
most of them were and I'm less likely to go wrong with them. I'd like to
have one decorated with a flying red horse or a flying A or a billboard
Sinclair or some such. But where do I look for the era and location
information I need to choose correct models? Where do I look to find out if
Mobil or Flying A or Sinclair or whoever had gas stations here then? Old
phone books? Business directories? Or ??? Suggestions gladly accepted.
I replied:

A concise history of whatever happened to Standard Oil after the break up of the Trust in 1911 and their marketing territories is at http://www.us-highways.com/sohist.htm . For other companies, a Google search may yield similar results.

These searches, however, will not answer the question necessarily of who owned the tank cars a specific oil company used.
Another source of what company retailed petroleum products in the Northwest in the late 1950's would be the Moody's Industrial Manuals. This, however, would entail a company by company review.

Tim Gilbert


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

At 03:17 PM 1/25/06, you wrote:The ones you would see might not be owned
by the companies delivering the oil (ie it would be entirely possible
for one company's tank to be delivering fuel to the competition).
I think you will also find that the chemist was the magic man at a lot of refineries. My Dad sailed in the 30's and the tankers use to fill up at the Imperial Oil refinery in Montreal. The chemist came on board and put dye in the holds and by the time the ship arrived at destination it was hauling fuel for Esso, Supertest, B/A and Sunoco. Tank car loads got the same treatment.

Peter Bowers


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Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Jared Harper wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@a...> wrote:
Most of this I have gleaned from this very list over the past few years:
Any printed sources you can refer me to?

Much of this info. as specifically related to the Alma branch, was
probably available to me ten years ago. I interviewed a dozen people
who worked the Alma branch and got good info. about how cars were
switched, how locomotives were serviced, how the trains were run. However, back then I did not have the questions. Now I have the
questions and the people are dead.
Which proves the two adages. One, the more you learn, the more you realize that you don't know; and two, the only use of knowledge is to ask better questions.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Which tank cars?

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Jim and Lisa Hayes wrote:

Which tank cars are correct for the late '50s in the Northwest? No, I'm not
looking for specific advice. I didn't live in the Northwest in the 1950s so
I can't reach back into my own memories.
Most of the tank cars I buy/build are plain Jane black because that's what
most of them were and I'm less likely to go wrong with them. I'd like to
have one decorated with a flying red horse or a flying A or a billboard
Sinclair or some such. But where do I look for the era and location
information I need to choose correct models? Where do I look to find out if
Mobil or Flying A or Sinclair or whoever had gas stations here then? Old
phone books? Business directories? Or ??? Suggestions gladly accepted.
A concise history of whatever happened to Standard Oil after the break up of the Trust in 1911 and their marketing territories is at http://www.us-highways.com/sohist.htm . For other companies, a Google search may yield similar results.

These searches, however, will not answer the question necessarily of who owned the tank cars a specific oil company used.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Which tank cars?

Shawn Beckert
 

Jim Hayes asked:

Where do I look to find out if Mobil or Flying A or Sinclair or
whoever had gas stations here then? Old phone books? Business
directories? Or ??? Suggestions gladly accepted.
Jim,

You don't mention what railroad you model. This will make a little
bit of difference as to which gas and oil companies you want to have
represented, retailers as well as rolling stock. Naturally, you're
pretty safe in running tank cars lettered for UTLX and GATX.

What I would suggest is to make a list of the towns/cities in the
region you want to represent. If you have access to Sanborn Fire
Maps (usually your library or, if you're lucky, online) you can
dial in the towns in question and see who was there in the way of
gas and oil jobbers and bulk facilities.

If not, find a copy of the "Official List of Open and Prepay Stations"
for the year(s) you're interested in. The back half of the book will
list a number of industries located by station and railroad. Not *every*
industry will be listed, but enough of them will be there to give you a
rough idea of what oil and gas companies were present on your railroad.

Hope this helps,

Shawn Beckert


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

Well, my bias is for WWII <G>. I think we've touched on tank car issues before. That is that you would have decreased delivery due to the shortage of tank cars. The ones you would see might not be owned by the companies delivering the oil (ie it would be entirely possible for one company's tank to be delivering fuel to the competition). Tim Gilbert has previously posted the January 1943 numbers for privately owned tank car fleets of 1000 cars or more here and they are:

Union Tank Car Co. 38,707
General American Transportation Co. 27,867
Pennsylvania-Conley Tank - div. of GATX 10,327
Shippers Car Line 6,949
Sinclair Refining Co. 6,447
US War Department 2,475
Gulf Oil Co. 1,551
Dupont 1,068
Sun Oil Co. 1,035
Sub-Total 96,426

Tim also reported on the total number of tank cars as of 12/31/1942 and 12/31/1943
Total Railroad-Owned 9,163 9,152
Total Privately Owned 140,971 141,313
Total "American" Owned 149,426 149,769

Based on the sizes of the fleets, I would focus on the leasing companies, and go with an almost even mix of UTLX vs GATX (counting the PA-Conley), 20% of those number in SHPX and then a few oil co. tank cars.
Bruce (& Jared),

What you Bruce is suggesting is a "generic" tank car. Because of tank cars being leased often for the long term, I don't think there was such a thing even during WW II. First of all during WW II, the leases were to be ignored only for "petroleum" tank cars. I don't think "other" types of tank cars were affected by the ODT Car Order ("Chemical," "Tallow," "Wine," "LPG," etc.). At the height of the pressure upon tank cars during WW II, that amount was something like 80,000 cars & I don't think that 80,000 included "petroleum" tank cars on the west coast.

Of the tank car owners listed above, only the fleets of UTLX, Sinclair, Gulf, the USG and Sun Oil were close to 100% "Petroleum." GATC and SHPX had a diverse tank car fleet in the context of having many types of tank cars. Besides having long term leases of tank cars (for instance, GATC controlled Texaco's with under the TCX mark), GATC and SHPX had the capability of spot (short term) leases. UTLX before and after the War did not want to have this capability preferring instead to work with lessees to determine their requirements throughout the year. UTLX demanded exclusivity with their lessees which both GATC and SHPX did not.

Another constriction during WW II was the ODT order to limit tank car loadings to more than 200 miles. Trucks were to be employed for shorter hauls.

OK during WW II, there might have been "generic" petroleum tank cars in the east, but, once the ODT order was rescinded, that free flow of tank cars ended.

With this scenario, the jobbers on the Alma Branch had reduced oil business unless that oil was used for the defense effort. Gasoline was private cars was rationed. What tank cars they got had to travel more than 200 miles from the end of the pipeline, river depot, or refinery. (Barge traffic of oil in the Mississippi River Valley (including the Missouri) increased during WW II.)


As for boxcars, I'm sure it would be close to the national numbers. Of course, you may have additional issues in that "tight" and "clean" cars are needed for grain use. I might use the national fleet numbers (in the archives here) and then perhaps bias the classes of cars from those roads towards cars that might be more useful for grain (keeping in mind that the elevator operator go whatever the agent could snag)
I agree with your assessment of the distribution of ownership among boxcars, but the movement of grain by rail was somewhat constricted when the ODT got involved. Rose goes to great lengths to describe this in his book.


What about sliding the year to 1944 or 1945? You would see the release of more tank cars back into general service, and you get the benefit of some of the "war emergency" production cars as well.

Certainly the completion of the Big and Little Inch Pipelines in 1944 to the East alleviated the tank car shortage, but the old tank car line/oil company relationships returned. Meanwhile, gasoline was still being rationed.

Tim Gilbert


Which tank cars?

Jim and Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

Which tank cars are correct for the late '50s in the Northwest? No, I'm not
looking for specific advice. I didn't live in the Northwest in the 1950s so
I can't reach back into my own memories.
Most of the tank cars I buy/build are plain Jane black because that's what
most of them were and I'm less likely to go wrong with them. I'd like to
have one decorated with a flying red horse or a flying A or a billboard
Sinclair or some such. But where do I look for the era and location
information I need to choose correct models? Where do I look to find out if
Mobil or Flying A or Sinclair or whoever had gas stations here then? Old
phone books? Business directories? Or ??? Suggestions gladly accepted.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon


GATC Trans-Flo Covered Hopper Cars

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

I'm currently preparing an article on the General American Trans-Flo (flour) covered
hopper cars that were in the GACX 41000-41099 series (circa 1950s). These cars were
predecessors to GATC's Airslide cars. Does anyone know of scale models (kit or brass) that
may have been produced of these cars??? Thanks.

Pat Wider


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 25, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Jared Harper wrote:

Ted,
Will this give me the kind of information that Bruce Smith was
giving me, but in more detail? If it will who at the National
Archives will I need to contact, and where is the specific facility
located. Some years ago I visited the National Archives to look at
ICC valuation records and at that time they were in Suitland, MD.
Anyway, my daughter is in the Washington, DC, area (McLean) so going
up there to research would be facilitated.
It *should* assuming that the data was saved and/or recorded. The person to contact is David Pfeiffer at the National Archives in College Park. You should be able to speak with him just by calling. Going through the records can be tedious as there appears to be little rhyme or reason to the cataloging of much of it. However, it is incredibly interesting as you can become sidetracked frequently by nuggets of fascinating material.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jared Harper wrote:
However, back then I did not have the questions. Now I have the
questions and the people are dead.
Jared is referring to his specific project, but this is a very general warning we should all heed: if there is someone you think might be worthwhile to interview, DON'T put it off.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Jared Harper <harper-brown@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@a...> wrote:
Most of this I have gleaned from this very list over the past few
years:
Any printed sources you can refer me to?

Much of this info. as specifically related to the Alma branch, was
probably available to me ten years ago. I interviewed a dozen people
who worked the Alma branch and got good info. about how cars were
switched, how locomotives were serviced, how the trains were run.
However, back then I did not have the questions. Now I have the
questions and the people are dead.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Jared Harper <harper-brown@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:

Jared:

You need to go through the files of the Office of Defense
Transportation and the War Production Board at the National
Archives.
It will take you about two days to go through it all and photocopy
what
you need. Yes, as my answer indicates, I have done it, and no, I
have
not gone through it to any degree to give you an answer and I am
too
swamped with other things right now to even begin to dig through it
all. I may not even have what you're looking for as I was more
focused
on freight car production when I went through the files. However,
there is a lot of info there for the taking.
Ted,
Will this give me the kind of information that Bruce Smith was
giving me, but in more detail? If it will who at the National
Archives will I need to contact, and where is the specific facility
located. Some years ago I visited the National Archives to look at
ICC valuation records and at that time they were in Suitland, MD.
Anyway, my daughter is in the Washington, DC, area (McLean) so going
up there to research would be facilitated.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Bruce Smith
 

On Jan 25, 2006, at 1:26 PM, Jared Harper wrote:

Bruce,
This is the kind of stuff I am asking about. You hit it on the
head. I want to plan my model freight car fleet and the car service
rules to be used on my Alma branch layout.

Since half the "industries" on the Alma branch were oil jobbers, and
25% were grain elevators I don't know what I am going to do about
operations. I originally chose May 1943 for my era because I have a
lot of materials, particularly photos from Kenneth Goebel that cover
this period. In the 1950s operations really began to decline so post
war operations would not be particularly exciting. Any ideas on this?
Jared,

Well, my bias is for WWII <G>. I think we've touched on tank car issues before. That is that you would have decreased delivery due to the shortage of tank cars. The ones you would see might not be owned by the companies delivering the oil (ie it would be entirely possible for one company's tank to be delivering fuel to the competition). Tim Gilbert has previously posted the January 1943 numbers for privately owned tank car fleets of 1000 cars or more here and they are:

Union Tank Car Co. 38,707
General American Transportation Co. 27,867
Pennsylvania-Conley Tank - div. of GATX 10,327
Shippers Car Line 6,949
Sinclair Refining Co. 6,447
US War Department 2,475
Gulf Oil Co. 1,551
Dupont 1,068
Sun Oil Co. 1,035
Sub-Total 96,426

Tim also reported on the total number of tank cars as of 12/31/1942 and 12/31/1943
Total Railroad-Owned 9,163 9,152
Total Privately Owned 140,971 141,313
Total "American" Owned 149,426 149,769

Based on the sizes of the fleets, I would focus on the leasing companies, and go with an almost even mix of UTLX vs GATX (counting the PA-Conley), 20% of those number in SHPX and then a few oil co. tank cars.

As for boxcars, I'm sure it would be close to the national numbers. Of course, you may have additional issues in that "tight" and "clean" cars are needed for grain use. I might use the national fleet numbers (in the archives here) and then perhaps bias the classes of cars from those roads towards cars that might be more useful for grain (keeping in mind that the elevator operator go whatever the agent could snag)

What about sliding the year to 1944 or 1945? You would see the release of more tank cars back into general service, and you get the benefit of some of the "war emergency" production cars as well.


Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: CNW "X" box cars (Was: WWII Freight Car Utilization)

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Charlie,
You have it correct. The C&NW called 'em "trap cars."

Gene Green
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--- In STMFC@..., "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@c...> wrote:

I'm not a C&NW expert, but AFAIK the "X" boxcars were to indicate
captive
service between the large LCL facility at Proviso (huge yard west
of Chicago
on the C&NW West Line) and downtown Chicago freight houses
(primarily the
one under the Merchandise Mart, but perhaps also direct deliveries
to the
large catalog store
warehouses just north of downtown?).
Note that the cars tend to be smaller, old wood bodied boxcars
which tends
to support the captive service theory.
Charlie Vlk


Re: CNW "X" box cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Does anyone know for what period the C&NW used this "X" car marking?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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