Date   

Re: ASF basic trucks was NKP/WLE 78000 series 70 ton hopper

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <dstorzek@e...> wrote:
<snip>
This has several pages of information and drawings presented by the
"Board of Trustees under the Four Wheel Railway Truck Agreement"
which ...
<snip>

I just finished scanning similar pages from the 1937 Cyc and can send
same to anyone interested while I still have them on my hard drive.

Please contact me off list at bierglaeser at yahoo dot com.

Should these pages be posted to the files or photos section of STMFC or
STMFPH?

Gene Green
By now you all know where I live so I'll quit repeating that. No one
gave the response I was hoping to elicit.


Re: Gunk and grime was: ADMIN: Creosote and wood preservatives

David J. Starr <dstarrboston@...>
 

JEFFREY LEAMAN wrote:
Thanks for the quick response. I'm basically a powder weatherer, but I would like to apply a sort of
base color to underframes, trucks and wheels. I then will weather portions of the equipment based on

the commodity carried, location through which the car traveled, etc, etc. After a base color, everything

gets a touch of Bragdon's stuff or some of the other weathering powders I have accumulated.
Thanks again
Jeff
Dark gray auto primer makes a good starting base coat for the under side of cars, and for canvas roofs such as were found on milk cars, wooden passenger cars and the like. The primer comes in spray cans for those few that lack air brushes. It is opaque enough to cover virtually any other color, dries dead flat, and offers a good base coat for chalks, water based or solvent based paint. Just one coat sprayed on the bottom of a plastic kit car kills the plastic gloss and looks better than the usual black plastic. Despite the solvent base of the primer, it has never attacked plastic. I get the stuff in spray cans at hardware stores or auto parts stores.

David Starr


Re: Unicel cars

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

According to my January 1957 ORER ACL had two cars that were numbered 15000 and
15001 and described as:

Box, Laminated, Unicel, 52' 6" outside length.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:

One of the STMFC listers reported that two of the Unicel cars were
purchased by ACL , painted, lettered, and apparently used as revenue
cars. I have not heard more about this, but would be very interested.
I searched in vain in Railway Age after the first introduction of
the Unicel car, for any mention that the car design was EVER approved
by AAR for interchange, and found nothing, despite their having
editorialized about the inequity of the original decision. With that
background, I thought surely they would have reported it if the
decision were reversed.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: ASF basic trucks was NKP/WLE 78000 series 70 ton hopper

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Larry Kline <lndkline@v...> wrote:

Does anyone have good photos of _ASF basic_ trucks from the 1944 to
1949 period? They are listed in the ASF ad in the 1946 CBCyc. The
trucks are listed as _cast steel ASF basic...
How about just going back to the common (Kalmbach reprint) 1940 CBC?
This has several pages of information and drawings presented by the
"Board of Trustees under the Four Wheel Railway Truck Agreement" which
I believe was the instrument that made the AAR design available to all
manufacturers. On the following page (Sec. 15-1120) is the ASF ad that
shows a pre Ride Control truck equipped with a Simplex Snubber (in the
spring pack) and what appear to be side frames of identical pattern to
the A-3 truck, although they probably don't have the wear surfaces for
the later Ride Control wedges, which don't show anyway on a model.
Also illustrated is a side frame that matches the drawings on the
previous pages, labeled "Double Truss Side Frame for freight cars".
This is most likely what ASF was calling the "Basic Truck"; a set of
castings to make a truck of the basic AAR design without any ASF
proprietary improvements.

While I'm at it, I need to put to rest the comments that the Accurail
"Bettendorf" truck has no prototype. Flip the page, to Sec. 15-1122
and you will find the products of The Bettendorf Co. listed (this is
before they became Barber-Bettendorf). At the top of the page is an
illustration of "Bettendorf Freight Car Truck, Conventional Type of
AAR dimensions, 5 1/2 in. by 10 in. Journals". This is a conventional
fifty ton truck with a spring plank. We did the seventy ton version
with 6 X 11 journals. These side frames are very similar to some
"conventional design" trucks produced by Symington-Gould Corp., and
also Standard Car Truck Co. as well they should be, as they were all
basically the same unadorned design. However, we put the Bettendorf
name in our sideframes, so I guess ours is a Bettendorf truck.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Santa Fe RR-22 Trucks

Paul Lyons
 

In a message dated 1/22/2006 1:33:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rhendrickson@... writes:
That was the right choice, Paul. Santa Fe put those trucks on many of
its new and rebuilt freight cars from 1936 to 1941.

Richard Hendrickson
Thank you Pat and Richard!
Paul Lyons
Liguna Niguel, CA


Santa Fe RR-22 Trucks

Paul Lyons
 

Well, since we seem to have everyone focused on trucks, maybe I can get a
confirmation here on a selection I just made for my Santa Fe RR-22 reefer. I want
to change out the brass trucks on one of the Overland brass ATSF RR-22 models
before painting the car. Richard H's Refrigerator Cars book tells me these
cars "...rode on ASF self-aligning, spring plankless, double-truss sideframe
trucks. After looking at what I think are my model possibilities, I chose the
Intermountain truck that was designed to go in their Santa Fe RR-32 kit. I quick
cross check in the refrigerator book and I know these are "ASF double-trusss
trucks" , but I am only assuming spring plankless from the pictures. Thanks
for any help, as this is one part of freight car construction I still just
continue to struggle with even though I have a lot of reference material.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA


ASF basic trucks was NKP/WLE 78000 series 70 ton hopper

Larry Kline
 

Does anyone have good photos of _ASF basic_ trucks from the 1944 to 1949 period? They are listed in the ASF ad in the 1946 CBCyc. The trucks are listed as _cast steel ASF basic_ for the following groups of former W&LE cars in the NKP diagram book revised to 1962.
23000-23499 40 ft box cars built 9-44 to 1-45
63650-64399 twin hoppers built 1947
78000-78999 triple hoppers built built 11-47 to 1-47
79000-80999 triple hoppers built built 1948
75000-75499 gons built 4-49 to 5-49
Photos of all of these cars show a truck which has the ASF rounded spring seat but doesn't seem to have the triangular wedge pockets inside the ends of the bolsters. The NKP diagram book lists ASF A-3 trucks for many NKP cars built during the same period and the W&LE 23500-23748 40 ft box cars built in 1948.

Brian Carlson asked:
I am building a model of one of the NKP/WLE 78000 series 70 ton hoppers in HO. The Spring 1993 issue of the NKHTS magazine contained an article on these cars. The text and NKP diagram I have state the trucks were ASF basic cast steel trucks with integral journal boxes. Based on the photo's in the article I think the trucks ASF A-3's but they may be A-3 ride control trucks.

Richard Hendrickson replied:
ASF made a variety of different ARA/ARA spec. trucks, but the ASF A-3s were all "Ride Control" trucks with built-in bolster snubbers. A couple of distinctive features of the A-3s were a rounded spring seat that protruded from the bottom of the side frames below the springs and a pair of triangular wedge pockets inside the ends of the bolsters.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Family models

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

I just noticed a thread titled remarks. This may follow that theme?

I received a phone call from Lloyd Keyser the other night. During our conversation I had the opportunity to needle him again about the Sunshine CNW gondola he did the masters for. It seems the model has 5 grabs on it's side right end while the prototype has 4. I must have mentioned this to him enough that he finally confided that he was told to do that so the sides could be used for other models.

I have often thought that when Sunshine makes kits for a 'family' of cars there are more errors than when a kit represents a single prototype. Lloyd's confession confirms this assumption.

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

PS Lloyd also said he has finshed the side for the another series of CNW gondolas.


Re: Remarks

jerryglow2
 

I know I held off on buying the original RC reefer until they did
the revision which I bought then went back and bought the original
one for variety. Kudos to those manufacturers who have corrected
mistakes.

Anyone know if Walthers re-release of the FGE reefer will have the
proper roof as I believe the original erroneously had a PS1 roof.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:

It's true that you lose money when you have to retool a
car. But if you're in business for the LONG RUN, a good
reputation is money in the bank. I'll bet Red Caboose
sold a lot more GS gondolas and even X29's because the
extra effort to fix the PFE reefer earned them a lot of
trust points. Proto 2000 has made their reputation on
selling ONLY accurate models. They have revised several
of their loco models.

Bottom line is that vendors may not fix everything but
they do listen to criticism and they sometimes fix stuff.

Tim O.

P.S. I have a LONG list of things that are still wrong with
current models if any vendors are interested... :-)


Re: Youngstown Doors

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 21, 2006, at 10:50 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Ted Culotta wrote:
In reference to the SP B-50-25 decals I mentioned earlier today, those
will be combined with Dan's doors and resin ends and details to create
a minikit for the IM 12-panel 40' box car. I, too, am waiting for
several hundred of Dan's doors. I have had the decals in hand since
December waiting for other things, including Dan's doors, to all come
together.
Ted, is this for the first batch of B-50-25 with the "wide-seam"
doors, the second batch, or both?
It is designed for the wide seam batches built by Pullman-Standard and Pressed Steel.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Freight car tooling revisions (was REMARKS)

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

I can't think of anything better about which to be so wrong.

Gene Green
Out in the west Texas town of El Paso


Re: Remarks

Ed Hawkins
 

On Saturday, January 21, 2006, at 09:19 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Bill Schneider & Co. deserve lots of
credit for not just ignoring the error, since (as Mike Brock has
demonstrated) it wasn't really very evident unless you took a scale
rule to the models.
Richard,
Or if the kit is used for "kitbashing" projects, which is how Pat Wider
and I discovered the problem on a Saturday evening (soon after the
models were first released) and we were exploring how the various parts
would work by swapping ends, roofs, etc. of the BT model with 40' box
cars from InterMountain and others. It quickly became evident that
something's not right! I'll never forget that "painful" Monday morning
when I called Bill to see if he was aware of the problem. My first
question to him was, "Are you sitting down?" I agree that BT deserves a
lot of credit for retooling the model.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Remarks

Tim O'Connor
 

Proto 2000 revised the roof of their 50 foot box cars
(except the end-door version). Intermountain actually
tooled 7+8 doors for their 50 ft PS-1's double door cars
after the early kits all came with unusual 8+8 doors.
Atlas scrapped their original 2-bay AAR offset hopper which
came with bizarre sides, and retooled new correct versions.
Walthers retooled the General American horizontal seam
ice reefers because of mistakes on the original edition.

A number of post-1960 kits have been fixed but we can't
talk about those here... Several were retooled very soon
after being released when they got lots of complaints.

It's true that you lose money when you have to retool a
car. But if you're in business for the LONG RUN, a good
reputation is money in the bank. I'll bet Red Caboose
sold a lot more GS gondolas and even X29's because the
extra effort to fix the PFE reefer earned them a lot of
trust points. Proto 2000 has made their reputation on
selling ONLY accurate models. They have revised several
of their loco models.

Bottom line is that vendors may not fix everything but
they do listen to criticism and they sometimes fix stuff.

Tim O.

P.S. I have a LONG list of things that are still wrong with
current models if any vendors are interested... :-)


Re: Remarks

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson:
A notable example being Branchline's re-tooling, several years ago,
of the body for their 40' 1944 AAR box car when it was found that
the model was a foot too long owing to an error in the Mainline
Modeler drawings on which it was based. Bill Schneider & Co.
deserve lots of credit for not just ignoring the error, since (as
Mike Brock has demonstrated) it wasn't really very evident unless
you took a scale rule to the models.
Or tried to fit another manufacturer's roof to it (IMWX?), which is
how Ed Hawkins discovered the error. Parts that are interchangeable at
the prototype level should theoretically be interchangeable on our
models, within the limitations of how model manufacturers design their
products.

Another example is the Tichy (?) GSC flat car, originally issued with
the brake wheel on the wrong side of the coupler pocket.

Tom Madden


Re: Gunk and grime was: ADMIN: Creosote and wood preservatives

JEFFREY LEAMAN
 

Thanks for the quick response. I'm basically a powder weatherer, but I would like to apply a sort of base color to underframes, trucks and wheels. I then will weather portions of the equipment based on the commodity carried, location through which the car traveled, etc, etc. After a base color, everything gets a touch of Bragdon's stuff or some of the other weathering powders I have accumulated.

Thanks again

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton<mailto:smokeandsteam@...>
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:52 PM
Subject: Gunk and grime was: [STMFC] ADMIN: Creosote and wood preservatives


Please don't rely on other people's formulas or recipes for weathering
colours. There have been far too many really good models which have been
slightly spoiled by someone simply squirting on some mud or dust or
other concoction to "weather" them



The problem with this approach is that the gunk and grime collects
differently and in different colours depending on where the cars has
been what it has carried and what pulled it on its journeys. An airbrush
is a useful tool but not an answer to all weathering



I probably sound like a broken record to some on this group, but
modellers really need to start seeing colour as something that they mix
and use based on what their eyes tell them rather than maintaining
slavish adherence to mystical formulas. What works on my layout in my
lighting won't work on everyone's because they use different lights.



Steam era weathering largely constituted an overall film of grime - the
density of this depends on the time since the last repaint, how far the
car had travelled and a number of other factors - obviously cars
spending a lot of times in industrial cities would collect a lot more
grime than those spending their lives on long hauls in the west. While
you would have seen some of the chipping peeling and scratching that you
see on modern steel cars behind diesel power this would usually have
been much less visible on a stem car since the grime hid the damage to
some extent



The most prevalent element was soot, but don't use a uniform black. The
effect you want in a model is a warm dark grey perhaps with odd patches
of darker and lighter shades. Roofs collected cinders as well as soot
and these often appear quite a lot lighter than you might think.



The faces of the wheels and trucks would have collected a real old mix
of oily grunge - look under an old leaky pickup truck for ideas - it's a
sort of brownish blackish grey colour which gets darker near the source
of the leak. The underframe's colour would be affected by the roadbed
more than the sooty atmosphere and that would depend on where the car
went.



You can access some of Jack Delano's photos at the Library of Congress
website which will give you an idea of the effects you should be
shooting for.



Colours that I find useful for weathering include grimy black and
weathered black - these are good weathering colours but please dot paint
the whole car in these colours. Testors do a range of acrylic colours
aimed at figure painters which include raw umber burnt umber and many
other natural earth tones which are excellent for creating weathering or
you could buy artists tubes from an art supply store which usually ends
up a lot cheaper than buying ½ oz. bottles. These need to be mixed and
toned town usually - neat earth colours are a bit rich and vibrant for
weathering.



There are a couple of other wrinkles.



- Much of the lettering was usually kept clean and white by repainting.
It pays to do much of the weathering work before you decal the car and
then gently overspray the car with a well thinned cost of your basic
grime colour to tone the white down just a fraction.



- Sometimes the car body colour itself seemed to shift as the paint
reacted with whatever was in the atmosphere or in the coating of grime -
for example some cars ended up looking more&#92; grey than boxcar red, so
plan your painting around this if you want to do an old well used car.



I'm sorry this is so vague, but the field is so broad that it would take
days to go over it in any detail. If you can narrow down your question
to something more specific like "how do I weather a set of trucks" we
may be able to make some specific recommendations. You may also get some
specific advice by searching the archive links I posted earlier



Aidrian





-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...> [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
JEFFREY LEAMAN





While we're at a discussion of colors and being new to the group, I
would be interested in hearing some recipes for general "Gunk" and
"grime" colors applied to wheels, trucks and under frames (including
couplers) using water soluble or acrylic paints such as Model Flex or
Polly S. I'm certain this has been discussed on this group before but
being new, I would appreciate hearing what folks use for this
application.


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/236 - Release Date:
1/20/2006



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/236 - Release Date:
1/20/2006



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Couplers - prototype drawings including major measurements

Jim Betz
 

Anyone have a link to an online site that has drawings of
1:1 scale RR couplers? I thought I'd look at how they are
actually put together. Or some other source for same?


Re: Remarks

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 21, 2006, at 8:28 PM, tgregmrtn@... wrote:

Gene writes:

"Bill Mc Clung's, Red Caboose, revision of a refrigerator car was a 
one-time
thing.  Bill will never repeat it, so he insists, and neither  will
any other
manufacturer.

Once made and offered to the public a  product is done."

I am not sure what Bill would do if he screwed up another set of
tooling  I
can't speak for him but I can tell you that others have corrected
tooling  that
was either about to hit the market or in currently in  production.
A notable example being Branchline's re-tooling, several years ago, of
the body for their 40' 1944 AAR box car when it was found that the
model was a foot too long owing to an error in the Mainline Modeler
drawings on which it was based. Bill Schneider & Co. deserve lots of
credit for not just ignoring the error, since (as Mike Brock has
demonstrated) it wasn't really very evident unless you took a scale
rule to the models.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NKP/WLE 78000 series 70 ton hopper

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 21, 2006, at 8:49 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:

My original questions still stands, would the notation "ASF basic
cast steel
trucks with integral journal boxes" mean the cars were equipped with
A-3
trucks.  The WLE 78000 series hoppers were built in 1947-1948.
The answer is "probably," though you can tell for sure by comparing the
trucks in the photos of the cars with the photos of the A-3 trucks in
RPCyc #4. After the A-3 design was introduced in 1944, most of ASF's
truck production was devoted to A-3s, but they were still producing
trucks and truck parts of other designs in 1947-'48 and the NKP may
have felt that "Ride Control" trucks were a needless refinement under
coal hoppers.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NKP/WLE 78000 series 70 ton hopper

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Richard, I guess I was confused, but the confusion occurred after reading
your article in RPC 4. <grin>. In the ASF A-3 Ride-Control section and photo
captions sometimes you wrote "ASF A-3 Ride Control" and in others only "A-3"
so I was thinking there was an non-ride control variant. Thanks for clearing
that up.

My original questions still stands, would the notation "ASF basic cast steel
trucks with integral journal boxes" mean the cars were equipped with A-3
trucks. The WLE 78000 series hoppers were built in 1947-1948.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: B&O 269284

rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Rob Daniels <shalizadad@y...> wrote:

I have a photo of B&O 269284, an M-26A, dating to the early 60's. In
the photo the car has what appears to be a replacement door of
Superior type with six panels. Does anyone know approximately when the
original Creco doors on M-26A's were replaced with this type?

Thanks.

Rob Daniels
New York, NY
Rob,

My limited photo collection has an example of an M-26A with a re-weigh
date of 1940 already with Youngstown doors. Another from the
mid-1950s has Superior panel doors. There are limited records
indicating that the B&O M-26's received repairs including patch panels
and doors as necessary starting after W.W. II and continue into the
mid-1950s. This apparently was not done to all the cars. I have a
photo I took in the early 1960s of an M-26D recently shopped and
repainted in Washington, Indiana still with its original doors. It
did have patch panels.

Recent information about the original doors indicates these were
termed "XLT Doors" and were based upon patents held by J. J. Tatum the
B&O Superintendent of Cars at the time. Paper records from the B&OHS
Archives has yielded additional information about other freight cars
parts all termed "XLT". Some of us in the B&OHS are trying to
organize this information and understand what was going on with Tatum,
his patents and the B&O freight car construction.

Bob Witt, Indianapolis, Indiana

146641 - 146660 of 196975