Date   

Re: Calling a spade a club

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@v...> wrote:

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Also, it took me a long time to "get" this, so I'll offer it here:
The term "Carbuilder's end"
simply means the end which a particular car builder
typically used on
his products. IOW, the car builder's ends. Carbuilder's end.
I just dug out some copies of the "Plates" (drawings) from the AAR car repair manual, thinking that if I would find a reference to carbuilder's ends anywhere, it would be there. Didn't find it, but what I did find goes to the heart of this matter.

Plate No. 1505-H, REV. "H" shows what most would call an early PS-1 end, the not so cute variety without the dimples. The plate is titled, "CORRUGATED STEEL END". Plate No. 1505-I, REV. "I" Shows the cuter version, with the dimples. It is titled "CORRUGATED STEEL END (TYPICAL)". Another sheet which unfortunately has the plate number cut off shows what we call an improved Dreadnaught end. It is titled "CORRUGATED STEEL END". This drawing carries the note, "Corrugated steel end patented." All these sheets are contemporary, having last revision dates in the 1962 - 1964 period, and were indeed were all photocopied from the same manual.

Sometimes the accepted industry terms of the day aren't descriptive enough. Now I'm sure that both SRECo. and P-S had part numbers for these ends, but they rarely show in the references that have survived, and even if they did, their use would not be intuitive. Like wise different ends that look identical in photos and on the models might have different part numbers; the difference might be something as small as the arrangement of the welded on studs that hold the lining.

I personally think that a lot of time is wasted trying to dream up codes to identify things that could just as well be described; if is the same as the end used on the prewar Pullman lightweight boxcar, then take the time to tell me so. Creating names often gets it wrong, or is later discovered to have incorrect connotations that were not at first obvious. An example is the "Foweler" boxcar. How many here know that the Fowler patent was simply for the use of slotted holes for the sheathing bolts, and says nothing about the arrangement of the framing? Indeed, the first couple years of production of the Soo Line cars with posts that go below the side sill (or should I have said "sawtooth"?) have slotted holes, and therefore were built under the Fowler patents; the others don't and weren't.


Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL


Re: NP reefer question

Tim O'Connor
 

Garth Groff asked

The car came with the Intermountain version of "Bettendorf" trucks. I
went through my source material this morning looking for information on
the correct trucks, but came up empty.
They should have 'ride control' trucks like ASF A-3 or Branchline's S-2.
The IM trucks are an earlier ASF design, originally produced for their
Santa Fe reefers.

By the way, this car has the large monad, North Coast Limited lettering,
and freight car red ends and roof. There is a photo of such a car in
Henderson's CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS, but this was taken in the 1970s. Would
this combination have been correct for around 1957-58?
The "Scenic Route of the Vista Dome..." appeared in the early 1950's so
that is fine for your era.

Tim O'Connor


NP reefer question

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

On Saturday I picked up one of the Intermountain R-40-23 reefers lettered for the NP. A very nicely done car, I might add, though it does lack the lower tack board.

The car came with the Intermountain version of "Bettendorf" trucks. I went through my source material this morning looking for information on the correct trucks, but came up empty. The builder's photo in RMC from several years back is too dark to see truck details. Can anyone tell me if the IM trucks are correct, or what would be better?

By the way, this car has the large monad, North Coast Limited lettering, and freight car red ends and roof. There is a photo of such a car in Henderson's CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS, but this was taken in the 1970s. Would this combination have been correct for around 1957-58?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Re: Calling a spade a club

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Also, it took me a long time to "get" this, so I'll offer it here:
The term "Carbuilder's end"
simply means the end which a particular car builder
typically used on
his products. IOW, the car builder's ends. Carbuilder's end.
Are you sure, Schuyler? I have only seen it so
stated in the SP orders for tP-S products. You are certainly
right that it COULD be general, but was it in fact?

Tony Thompson
I have yet to see something where it doesn't work. That doesn't prove it, but OTOH, it doesn't
DISprove it either.

And I've not seen a situation which otherwise defines it, either.

SGL


Re: combine car trucks

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tyler Turpin asked:
"Which model trucks in HO scale ''manufacturer and part #'' are best
to simulate the combine car prototype?"
http://railwaymuseum.ab.ca/other.html#17106

Walthers 933-1079 or Bethlehem Car Works #1271.
http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/Products/Kit_Bits/index.html#Trucks

Scroll to the bottom of the page for photos.


Ben Hom


Re: Sunshine Grain Door Mini-kit

Montford Switzer <ZOE@...>
 

Brian:

I just finished up a couple of BLT boxcar kits yesterday. I used the
sliding door feature designed into the kit and even after weathering
they work well. I also equipped them with PAPER grain doors and
somewhat to my surprise they did not interfere with the sliding door
feature.

So, when loaded and in transit the doors are closed. When being loaded
they are open exposing the grains doors. Since the paper ones were not
re-used they were often just left in the cars and the RR's were stuck
cleaning them out (clean out tracks could be found at larger yards).
You could see empty grain cars running with doors open and the remains
of the paper grain doors exposed. If the car was unloaded from one side
only the entire door on the other side may have gone untouched, but cold
be moving with the doors open.

Same scenario applied with wood grain doors EXCEPT they were removed
completely when the cars were unloaded because they had value and had to
be returned. I doubt my sliding door will work with the wood grain
doors without some modification to the mechanism, but it would be a nice
touch.

Since the wood grain doors were reused and stored outside when not in
use the wood was probably not new and should be weathered accordingly.


Hope this helps, Mont Switzer

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Brian J Carlson
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 11:42 PM
To: stmfc@...
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine Grain Door Mini-kit

I was given the mini-kits from this year's Naperville meet by a N-scaler
who
would be using them. I understand the grain doors and why/how they were
used
but I am a little confused by the mini-kit. Unless the car was being
loaded
or unloaded on a siding the grain doors would be covered by the regular
sliding door, correct? So unless the model was of a car being loaded or
unloaded on a siding, you wouldn't know the grain doors were there. Is
this
kit intended to stump the prototype police when they notice the car is
in
use for the grain rush and they check :-)

I guess I am wondering what the other attendees plan to do with their
grain
doors? Thanks for helping to educate this city kid who isn't old enough
to
remember boxcars in grain service.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY





Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Calling a spade a club

Tony Thompson
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Also, it took me a long time to "get" this, so I'll offer it here: The term "Carbuilder's end"
simply means the end which a particular car builder typically used on his products. IOW, the car
builder's ends. Carbuilder's end.
Are you sure, Schuyler? I have only seen it so stated in the SP orders for tP-S products. You are certainly right that it COULD be general, but was it in fact?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: spades & clubs

Tony Thompson
 

Come to think on it, wasn't a "Dreadnaught" end also originally the
trade name for somebody's product?
Was and still is, AFAIK: SRECo. But even in the professional literature, I know of at least one reference to a Chicago-Cleveland Dreadnaught end: maybe a licensed product?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Sunshine Grain Door Mini-kit

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

At 11:42 PM 11/13/05, you wrote:. Unless the car was being loaded
or unloaded on a siding the grain doors would be covered by the regular
sliding door, correct?
I seen a lot of empty box cars go past with the doors open or part open. When loaded the doors were closed and sealed.

I would expect this mini-kit is the wood grain doors?

Peter Bowers


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/05


Sunshine Grain Door Mini-kit

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

I was given the mini-kits from this year's Naperville meet by a N-scaler who
would be using them. I understand the grain doors and why/how they were used
but I am a little confused by the mini-kit. Unless the car was being loaded
or unloaded on a siding the grain doors would be covered by the regular
sliding door, correct? So unless the model was of a car being loaded or
unloaded on a siding, you wouldn't know the grain doors were there. Is this
kit intended to stump the prototype police when they notice the car is in
use for the grain rush and they check :-)

I guess I am wondering what the other attendees plan to do with their grain
doors? Thanks for helping to educate this city kid who isn't old enough to
remember boxcars in grain service.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Rivet size

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
>
> On Nov 8, 2005, at 9:33 AM, soolinehistory wrote:
>
> > I've found
> > a source in Germany that has brass rivets with 0.3mm heads on 0.2mm
> > shanks; that's .012" heads on .008 shanks, but that means you
need to
> > deal with a #90 drill or thereabouts. They will fall straight
through
> > a hole drilled with a #80 drill. You don't want to ask the
price :-(
> >
>
> Dennis:
>
> I'll bite - what's the price and where can they be had? How
about the
> other brass rivets you mentioned (or are these one and the same)?
>
> Regards,
> Ted Culotta

The american outfit with the .016" head rivets can be found at:

http://www.galtran.com/ScaleNutsandBolts/ScaleNutsandBoltsProductPage.htm

Click on rivets. I purchased some from them some time ago; took about a
week. They take plastic.

I am grateful to Manfred Lorenze (who may not be on this list) for the
source of the smaller rivets, but I've not actually tried to
purchase from
them. Go to:

http://www.fohrmann.com/e/shop/art/6681.htm

The smallest size is listed by the illustration close to the top of the
page. Keep in mind that 0.1mm = appx. .004" 40 pcs. for 6.50 Euros is
about $7.65, or about twenty cents EACH. Ouch! Plus shipping,
although they
ought to be able to get enough rivets to model the Titanic in a
first class
mail envelope. The last time I looked, they didn't say anything about
either international orders or plastic, but maybe that is changed. You
could e-mail them (they have a "contact us" icon on the site), and hope
someone there reads English. Good luck.

The bigger bummer is the .008" shank really does require a #90 drill
(.0087, a rattle fit :-) or perhaps #91, .0083" diameter. These are
specialty items, available from an industrial supply only, at a
couple of
bucks each, I'm sure.

Let me know how you make out.

Dennis Storzek
Dennis,

Small Parts http://www.smallparts.com has drills down to #97. I
didn't order any that small and it's been a while (plus I can't find
my catalog right now) but they have an amazing assortment of "stuff"
and take plastic and phone orders.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California


Re: Calling a spade a club

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tim, don't be noughty.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 7:23 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Calling a spade a club


Jeff English wrote

As the person who coined the term "Dartnaught End" nearly twenty
years ago ..... it was clearly "Dartnaught End" and not "dartnot".
Google turns up 14 uses of the term Dartnaught.... and 47 of
the term Dartnot! :-)

Tim "Dart? NOT" O'Connor



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite
Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/9MtolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------
------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: Calling a spade a club

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I have tried to stay out of this, but . . .

bierglaeser wrote:

Well, at least one person used it in a book. Me! I used
PS-0 in the
CGW color guide. I qualified it by saying Pullman-Standard
never used
the term but ...

I'll start back-pedaling now.

Gene Green

No, Don't. At least not right away. 8-)

I'm with O'Connor on this one: when the trade name fails to
describe the characteristic features, come up with a better name.

Dave Nelson
Being a purist and using exactly the same term the professional railroaders and engineers (desk
type) used is perfectly fine. Unless:
A) they didn't have any term
B) they used the same term for a bunch of different things

If we are going to use terms which are not in the original text, so to speak, then we should do
precisely what Gene did, qualifying the term as one used for convenience in discussing something
that is otherwise clear as mud. We ARE writing history (both in the books and here on this list, at
least some of the time) but if you read Real History about Really Important Topics, there are terms
used that were never thought of at the time applied to lots of situations and materials. And let's
all chill out a bit and realize that while what we're talking about here may be of Vital Importance
to this small group, it isn't a Really Important Topic in the Real World.

Also, it took me a long time to "get" this, so I'll offer it here: The term "Carbuilder's end"
simply means the end which a particular car builder typically used on his products. IOW, the car
builder's ends. Carbuilder's end.

SGL


Re: spades & clubs

al_brown03
 

Mm, a conundrum: "corrugated" is a better term (conceded), except
it's also been applied to ends that are quite different, which would
seem to render it ambiguous. What if we put "Murphy" in quotes, to
mean SRECo's corrugated end plus visually similar knock-offs?

Come to think on it, wasn't a "Dreadnaught" end also originally the
trade name for somebody's product?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@s...>
wrote:

On the subject of terminology, a Murphy *end* is reasonably
descriptive, with the subdivisions specified in the usual way. As
in: "USRA single- and double-sheathed boxcars have 5/5/5 Murphy
ends."
Only if it's an SRECo product. Other people also
manufactured
corrugated ends, which may be a better term. Then, of course, one
has
to be watchful for the early days of Dreadnaught ends, when they
were
sometimes called "corrugated" also in the industry press.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Calling a spade a club

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

englishintroy wrote:

As the person who coined the term "Dartnaught End" nearly twenty
years ago (now that's a scary thought!), I just want to say that the
intent at that time was not to describe a family of different ends
that all lacked "darts" (which family would include the end used the
PS-1), but to refer exclusively to that variation on the IDE which
lacked the minor ribs between the major ribs.
Ahhh, so it's ALL YOUR fault Jeff! 8-)

Any suggestion for the PS corrugated ends?

Dave Nelson


Re: spades & clubs

Tony Thompson
 

On the subject of terminology, a Murphy *end* is reasonably
descriptive, with the subdivisions specified in the usual way. As
in: "USRA single- and double-sheathed boxcars have 5/5/5 Murphy
ends."
Only if it's an SRECo product. Other people also manufactured corrugated ends, which may be a better term. Then, of course, one has to be watchful for the early days of Dreadnaught ends, when they were sometimes called "corrugated" also in the industry press.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Calling a spade a club

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff English wrote

As the person who coined the term "Dartnaught End" nearly twenty
years ago ..... it was clearly "Dartnaught End" and not "dartnot".
Google turns up 14 uses of the term Dartnaught.... and 47 of the term
Dartnot! :-)

Tim "Dart? NOT" O'Connor


Re: sawtooth stock car in spades & clubs

al_brown03
 

That Allegheny/Garratt would presumably have four articulated
joints -- two where a Garratt has them, and one more in
each "Mallet" section -- and could go around a street corner. Its
minimum radius would be that (obligatory freight car content) of any
battleship gondolas in its train. :-)

On the subject of terminology, a Murphy *end* is reasonably
descriptive, with the subdivisions specified in the usual way. As
in: "USRA single- and double-sheathed boxcars have 5/5/5 Murphy
ends."

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., philip schoenthal <pmsch@s...> wrote:

this aught to be used as a convention clinic.
titled "Imagineering, what if"

ed_mines <ed_mines@y...> wrote:Check out the third to last photo
on this amusing web site to see the
aforementioned stock car.

http://www.karenparker.net/PixelMagic/pixelmagic.htm

Ed






---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group "STMFC" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


---------------------------------





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Ad] Promo on New FD Flat Car Kit from B.T.S.

Jeff English
 

See the product announcement below, from the S-Scale list, for an FD
flat car model. This would appear to be one of the same GSC cars
discussed recently on this list regarding an HO manufacturer's error
in selecting the most useful variant. Is anyone on this list
familiar with the O-scale model referred to? Presumably the S-scale
modle will be made by the same mfr as the O-scale, so there's some
likelihood of being able to accurately ludge this model before it is
produced.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
where, in 1860, Charles Nalle, an escaped slave, was protected by
the good people of this city from arrest by federal agents
attempting to return Mr. Nalle to the less-than-humane situation
from which he had escaped

--- In S-Scale@..., "B.T.S. - Bill & Diane Wade"
<wadepub@i...> wrote:

Howdy Friends

Patterns for our new urethane S Scale 40' Depressed Center Flat Car
kit
have arrived and are on the way to the caster. The prototype car
was
used by many roads including the NYC, NH, C&NW, SOU starting in the
1940s. The model includes trucks and brass brake detail components
under each end like the prototype.

Photos of the O version are at http://www.btsrr.com/bts9209.htm
The S Scale version is identical. (And yes, there will be an S
Scale
bulldozer coming!)

The flats should be ready to ship before Christmas. Regular price
is
$59.95 per kit.

-----------------------------------------------

Order before Nov 25 and save a few bucks!

**** Promo price on kit #09209 is $50.00!!

Shipping is still $5.00 per order, and payment is due with the order.

-----------------------------------------------

Save more!!!!

In addition, if you order one or more depressed-center flat cars,
you
can take advantage of a combo special pricing with our other flat
car
kits....

F39 75' Piggyback Flat - http://www.btsrr.com/bts9203.htm
$89.95 regular price - $80.00 in the combo deal.


F89 89' Piggyback Flat - http://www.btsrr.com/bts9200.htm
$99.95 regular price - $90.00 in the combo deal.


40' Truss-Rod Flat - http://www.btsrr.com/bts9007.htm
$29.95 regular price - $25.00 in the combo deal.


Offers expire November 25. Payment in full is due with the order.

Many thanks!
Bill
--
============== Scale Model Railroad Products ================
Manufacturer - Retailer - Importer
Bill & Diane Wade Phone: 304-637-4510 FAX: 304-637-4506
B.T.S. P O Box 856, Elkins, WV 26241
http://www.btsrr.com

--- End forwarded message ---


Re: Calling a spade a club

Jeff English
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

<snip>

. . . Maybe phases or something clearly descriptive
(my own preference): PS Dartnot End, PS-1 Undimpled End, PS-1
Dimpled End.

As the person who coined the term "Dartnaught End" nearly twenty
years ago (now that's a scary thought!), I just want to say that the
intent at that time was not to describe a family of different ends
that all lacked "darts" (which family would include the end used the
PS-1), but to refer exclusively to that variation on the IDE which
lacked the minor ribs between the major ribs. Also, it was
clearly "Dartnaught End" and not "dartnot". Now, since this is all
post-historical dithering, folks are welcome to come up with
accepted meanings for "dartnot", but I don't have anything to do
with that.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
former home to the largest water wheel ever built, by the Burden
Iron Company, who claimed it to produce 2,000hp but latter-day
analysis estimates its actual power output to be "only" about 600hp

149161 - 149180 of 196883