Date   

Re: Pools, going in the deep end

Shawn Beckert
 

Clark Propst wrote:

I know little of car pools and am maybe oversimplifying things.
My definition of a pool would be: Railroad X buys freight cars
to carry an industries product. That industry loads and sends
the cars indecrimitly with the cars returning for another load
when empty.
My understanding of a freightcar pool is the railroad that stands
to get the greatest percentage of the line haul business has to
contribute a corresponding number of cars to the pool. Other roads
which get a smaller piece of the revenue pie contribute fewer cars.

Shawn Beckert


Re: M&StL 50 fters

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@c... wrote:
Clark, I would love to see a model of this car, since evidently
they ran on the SP in the 1960 era.
Tim, here's a link to a model.

http://www.eldora.net/lyndon/propst/boxcar2902.html

I'll post the prototype in the files section.
Clark propst


Pools, going in the deep end

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

I know little of car pools and am maybe oversimplifying things. My definition of a pool would be: Railroad X buys freight cars to carry an industries product. That industry loads and sends the cars indecrimitly with the cars returning for another load when empty.

I'm sure to find out how this really works.

Back when 5 railroads served Mason City the local cement plants ran a pool arrangement for box cars. If they were to ship 11 loads out on your RR then you were to supply them with 11 empties. You probably would not get the same cars back loaded you gave them empty. Most box cars in photos do not belong to the 5 local roads, lots of PRR cars. Although I have records of lots of CGW X29 style (Ted says AAR cars) with cement loads on the M&StL. Today the plants are still protected by a covered hopper pool. I'm told it's one of the every few still around.

Clark Propst


CGW ore

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

By the way, Clark, I know that the CGW billed some of its ore
hoppers to South Freeport for handling by the IC and I think it billed
some to Galena for the Q. Either line had a way from said locations
to East St. Louis. Yes, and some probably went to Marshalltown and
was turned over to the M&StL.

Tom
Tom,
Chet has provided great indepth information on the ore interchange
at S Freeport. I have records that ore traveled on the M&StL. I have
drawn a blank of the Q. They got it at East Dubuque. Most times
brought over from Fairgrounds yard by the Chicago Passenger train. I
need info on where exactly the Q got the ore and what they did with
it? In other words, how they handled the ore traffic to Granite City.
Thanks for any info on this subject,
Clark Propst
PS There's a new IT book with a photo of two of their geeps pulling
CGW 3 bay hoppers loaded with...what else? Ore of course. Thanks to
eagle eye French for finding that one.


Re: M&StL 50 fters

Tim O'Connor
 

Clark, I would love to see a model of this car, since evidently
they ran on the SP in the 1960 era. Can you post a photo?
Does it have tab sills, taper sills (what style?) Does it match
either the Intermountain or any Kadee version?

Tim O.

Tony wrote:
There were canneries in East Oakland and one on Alameda in
the
1940s. Elden's idea may well explain what that car was doing in
Alameda
(if it came there directly from Weirton).
I have been informed by an expert that they cars had 9' doors not 8'
as I had first mentioned.

Thanks for all the great replies. I think it is safe to assume
(using the CGW car assignments as a guide) these cars were purchased
for the Weirton pool and could have traveled anywhere in the country.
They were fortunately photograghed in Alameda. BTW they are not
coupled together, but in separate photos.
All agree, raise your hands....how many of you acually did? How many
of you would like to see models of these bright red cars with black
ends and 10'6" M dot ST L on the left and the road name in a white
horizonal stripe on the right with a diagonal stripe with Damage Free
in it?


Re: M&StL 50 fters

Douglas Harding <d.harding@...>
 

Clark
Tin plate equals Tin Cans, add in the M&StL and we arrive at Decker Meat in
Mason City. And don't forget the various canneries, ie Marshall Canning #5
in Roland, Grinnell Canning in Grinnell, etc.

Thanks everyone, now I have some new routing for waybills on the IaC.

Douglas Harding
Iowa Central Railroad
http://d.harding.home.mchsi.com


Re: M&StL 50 fters

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Tony wrote:
There were canneries in East Oakland and one on Alameda in
the
1940s. Elden's idea may well explain what that car was doing in
Alameda
(if it came there directly from Weirton).
I have been informed by an expert that they cars had 9' doors not 8'
as I had first mentioned.

Thanks for all the great replies. I think it is safe to assume
(using the CGW car assignments as a guide) these cars were purchased
for the Weirton pool and could have traveled anywhere in the country.
They were fortunately photograghed in Alameda. BTW they are not
coupled together, but in separate photos.
All agree, raise your hands....how many of you acually did? How many
of you would like to see models of these bright red cars with black
ends and 10'6" M dot ST L on the left and the road name in a white
horizonal stripe on the right with a diagonal stripe with Damage Free
in it?

Thanks tons guys,
Clark


Re: M&StL 50 fters

Thomas Baker
 

Wierton, WV once had--maybe still does--a sprawling steel mill. Would that make any sense?

Tom

By the way, Clark, I know that the CGW billed some of its ore hoppers to South Freeport for handling by the IC and I think it billed some to Galena for the Q. Either line had a way from said locations to East St. Louis. Yes, and some probably went to Marshalltown and was turned over to the M&StL.

Tom

________________________________

From: STMFC@... on behalf of Clark Propst
Sent: Mon 8/22/2005 12:28 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] M&StL 50 fters



Saturday I bought photos of M&StL 2900 and 2902 from Joe Collias. These are PS1 50' box cars with 8' doors and DF loaders blt in 59. The photos were taken at Alameda CA in 1960. The cars are stenciled: WHEN EMPTY RETURN TO PRR WEIRTON W VA. Does anyone know what Weirton had that Alameda might have wanted??
Thanks,
Clark Propst







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Re: M&StL 50 fters

Greg Martin
 

All,

This does make sense if the stock was shipped as cans or can stock in rolls as many of the cars Marked "WE" show up here in Salem, OR today loaded with empty cans for Truit Bros. canneries even today. Salem, OR is stuffed full of empty cans ("hey, he hates the cans..." excerpt from The Jerk) in just about every empty building in town and I am sure it was the case in the 50's as there were more canneries here then than now. The WE cars are from the current Wheeling and Lake Erie RR fleet. I am simply using this as a comparitive example albeit out of scope for this lists time period. So Tony and Garth this all plays together.

One thing we don't address often on this list is the old railroads marketing approach to cars and car supply of years past. I am often reminded by the RR car applicators (still working for the major carriers) that the railroads were often ask to contribute cars to pools to assigned locations to return to for loading in order to participate in that commodity's distribution to plants on line. The theory was if you participate in the revenue you supply the needed cars to d the job. Often the cars were incorrectly shipped to the wrong destination in error by the shipper. But the theory was that a CB&Q car loaded offline at one location was to route to the home road with a load. This often resulted in a car in the pool ending up at the wrong desto but that the user on the Q would be supplied anther like car from the same pool. It was often difficult to correct but they were generally recaptured and corrected at some point. So for the M&StL car it was likely in a pool and routed in error to California, but would likely get corrected at some point. Regardless the cars were in the "pool" and therefore carrying the correct commodity in this case likely cans or can stock. Many canneries had local companies that made cans from sheet or coil stock near by. We in Salem, OR have a small can producer (former American Can Co. plant) who chooses to use trucks rather than rail as we have experimented with transloading coil steel, but the damage created in transite makes trucking a better alternative. BTW te coils were shipped on pallets "eye to the sky".

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:21:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [STMFC] M&StL 50 fters


Clark and Greg,

If the cars shipped coils to Alameda, they might well have been
canstock. There was a large Del Monte cannery in Alamada. They primarily
canned pineapples from Hawaii, but I think did other fruit as well.
Strange that they would send all the Wierton for canstock though. Plenty
of it was rolled at USS Columbia in Pittsburg, California.

There was also a small steel fabrication plant in Alameda. it was
dormant by the time I lived there in the mid-1970s. The plant used
primarily structural steel.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

tgregmrtn@... wrote:

Clark,

Likely coil steel rolls. Weirton W.VA. was a big steel town. The P&WV 40-foot
boxcars bought from both PS and AC&F were bought to handle coil steel rolls.

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Clark Propst <cepropst@...>


Saturday I bought photos of M&StL 2900 and 2902 from Joe Collias. These are
PS1 50' box cars with 8' doors and DF loaders blt in 59. The photos were taken
at Alameda CA in 1960. The cars are stenciled: WHEN EMPTY RETURN TO PRR WEIRTON
W VA. Does anyone know what Weirton had that Alameda might have wanted??
Thanks,

Clark Propst




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Re: Bearings, was: Scale Weights - Doubt It

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Larry Jackman wrote:
My father went to work for the UN PAC in 1929 and these bearings were
called friction back then . . .
We have this debate regularly and often: shall we use the railroaders' term, or the professional industry term? Both can work, of course, but often the railroaders used different terms in different parts of the country, or even on different parts of the railroad or in different crafts on one railroad; and often they are slang or inaccurate or confusing terms, unless you know the context. That's why some of us prefer to use the professional literature terms (Cyclopedias, Railway Age, AAR Bulletins, etc.) Naturally YMMV.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: American Memory

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

timboconnor@... wrote:

Tim, follow the directions I gave to Brian Ehni. As he said
I only gave a link to the JPG version, which is 1000x smaller
than the TIF file. If you could print the TIF it would be big
enough to carpet your house, I think...

I think most of those Delano railroad photos date from the
early 1940's.
Tim,

I have & found links to IHB's Blue Island Yard, ATSF's Corwith Yard
although the photos at Corwith do not have the panoramas I am looking
for. Many, many thanks for finding this -

Take Care, Tim


Re: M&StL 50 fters

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Clark and Greg,

If the cars shipped coils to Alameda, they might well have been canstock. There was a large Del Monte cannery in Alamada. They primarily canned pineapples from Hawaii, but I think did other fruit as well. Strange that they would send all the Wierton for canstock though. Plenty of it was rolled at USS Columbia in Pittsburg, California.

There was also a small steel fabrication plant in Alameda. it was dormant by the time I lived there in the mid-1970s. The plant used primarily structural steel.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

tgregmrtn@... wrote:

Clark,
Likely coil steel rolls. Weirton W.VA. was a big steel town. The P&WV 40-foot boxcars bought from both PS and AC&F were bought to handle coil steel rolls.
Greg Martin -----Original Message-----
From: Clark Propst <cepropst@...>


Saturday I bought photos of M&StL 2900 and 2902 from Joe Collias. These are PS1 50' box cars with 8' doors and DF loaders blt in 59. The photos were taken at Alameda CA in 1960. The cars are stenciled: WHEN EMPTY RETURN TO PRR WEIRTON W VA. Does anyone know what Weirton had that Alameda might have wanted??
Thanks,
Clark Propst


Re: M&StL 50 fters

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gatwood, Elden wrote:
Weirton Steel, which the PRR switched, was a division of National Steel
during that period. Weirton made coke, pig, and steel, but they were
also a huge producer of tin plate, both electrolytic and hot dipped.
This was used extensively as can stock.
There were canneries in East Oakland and one on Alameda in the 1940s. Elden's idea may well explain what that car was doing in Alameda (if it came there directly from Weirton).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: American Memory

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim, follow the directions I gave to Brian Ehni. As he said
I only gave a link to the JPG version, which is 1000x smaller
than the TIF file. If you could print the TIF it would be big
enough to carpet your house, I think...

I think most of those Delano railroad photos date from the
early 1940's.

Tim O.

Tim,

Great photo! Do you know where (around Chicago? - MILW?) and when did
Jack Delano shoot this photo? That might provide a plausible explanation
of why so many (empty?) SFRD's vs. no PFE's or ART's.

Unfortunately, my two bit system cannot really discern what is what -
you know that I would like to tabulate the car types and owners.
Tim Gilbert


Re: M&StL 50 fters

Tim O'Connor
 

Clark,

You may have hit on something. Weirton Steel was a major
producer of tinplate. See this article from 1956

http://wheeling.weirton.lib.wv.us/history/bus/WHSTEEL1.HTM

Tim O'Connor

Clark,

I thought of the same thing as Greg. May have been tin plate going
to a cannery or other industry that used cans. The Borden's milk
plant in Dixon received tin plate in coil rolls during the 1950's in
EJ&E cars. Also the J L Clark plant in Rockford, which made a types
of cans would receive these same cars, at least in 1960. I'm not
allowed to talk about things beyond that date.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@a... wrote:
Clark,

Likely coil steel rolls. Weirton W.VA. was a big steel town. The
P&WV 40-foot boxcars bought from both PS and AC&F were bought to
handle coil steel rolls.

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Clark Propst <cepropst@n...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:28:39 -0500
Subject: [STMFC] M&StL 50 fters


Saturday I bought photos of M&StL 2900 and 2902 from Joe Collias.
These are
PS1 50' box cars with 8' doors and DF loaders blt in 59. The photos
were taken
at Alameda CA in 1960. The cars are stenciled: WHEN EMPTY RETURN TO
PRR WEIRTON
W VA. Does anyone know what Weirton had that Alameda might have
wanted??
Thanks,
Clark Propst







Yahoo! Groups Links












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Re: M&StL 50 fters

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Very useful for appliance manufacturing
which I think was present somewhere on the M&StL.
Tim O'Connor
Maytag in Newton IA, on the branch out of New Sharon. Would seem odd
for these new cars to be rocking down a light rail branch behind an
ALCO.
Clark Propst


Re: M&StL 50 fters

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Clark;
Weirton Steel, which the PRR switched, was a division of National Steel
during that period. Weirton made coke, pig, and steel, but they were
also a huge producer of tin plate, both electrolytic and hot dipped.
This was used extensively as can stock.

There seem to have been a number of boxcars stenciled with that label.
Among them an insulated set of X53s on the PRR set up exclusively for
Weirton Steel (also DF-equipped). They are said to have been reserved
for coil on pallets, although I do not know their ultimate destination.

Weather-protected coil strip was also used extensively in appliance
manufacture, as well as the larger coils you more typically associate
with the auto industry.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Clark Propst
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 9:29 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] M&StL 50 fters

Saturday I bought photos of M&StL 2900 and 2902 from Joe Collias.
These are PS1 50' box cars with 8' doors and DF loaders blt in 59. The
photos were taken at Alameda CA in 1960. The cars are stenciled: WHEN
EMPTY RETURN TO PRR WEIRTON W VA. Does anyone know what Weirton had that
Alameda might have wanted??
Thanks,
Clark Propst

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Re: American Memory

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Excellent!
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

From: <timboconnor@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:54:35 +0000
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] American Memory

Go here http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/

Search for "Bensenville yard"

Select picture 14. There are many other good photos too.

To get the C&NW pictures look for "Proviso yard"


Do you have a link for the archival version? This page only has a 128k
version.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni


From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:25:43 -0400
To: <stmfc@...>
Subject: [STMFC] American Memory


If you have broadband and a big disk, considering loading the
archival copy (139 Megabytes) of this Jack Delano photo.

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34800/1a34811v.jpg

It so crisp that it is easy to identify cars even in the 15th row
of the scene.

There are so many interesting cars: MILW double sheathed box cars,
a URTX/MILW steel reefer (can anyone tell me more URTX 10xxx?), a
freshly painted PRR X29, a horse car (?) -- above & right of X29,
a Southern furniture car (double sheathed, double door), and next
to that a freshly stenciled CMStP&P double sheathed car... above
the Southern car I think is a single sheathed L&NE box car... And
yes Mike, an N&W coal hopper !!

More, a Virginian gondola, Sinclair tank cars of many types, a
CofG ventilator box car, an SP double sheathed box car, a very
short SLSF box car lettered with script Frisco Fast Freight (it
looks like a steel car, maybe a 1932 box?), a CGW 1932 box car
(very dirty), a Union Pacific double sheathed box car with white
& yellow lettering, a GM&O single sheathed 1920's box car freshly
painted, a MILW 50ft steel auto car.

Also a 36ft Morrell meat reefer, an M&StL reefer or two, and for
Chet, an NJI&I single sheathed box car (3549?) (upper left of the
yard). Several SFRD reefers, but no PFE or ART reefers anywhere.
I guess that's because PFE and ART kept 'em moving and didn't let
them stand around in railroad yards. :-)

Tim O'Connor






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Re: M&StL 50 fters

Tim O'Connor
 

Clark

I agree with Greg, some kind of steel sheeting either in
coils or flat form. Very useful for appliance manufacturing
which I think was present somewhere on the M&StL. It
looks like someone "borrowed" the cars and sent them
to California instead of Iowa...

Tim O'Connor

Clark,
Likely coil steel rolls. Weirton W.VA. was a big steel town. The P&WV 40-foot
boxcars bought from both PS and AC&F were bought to handle coil steel rolls.
Greg Martin


Re: American Memory

Tim O'Connor
 

Go here http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/

Search for "Bensenville yard"

Select picture 14. There are many other good photos too.

To get the C&NW pictures look for "Proviso yard"

Do you have a link for the archival version? This page only has a 128k
version.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni


From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:25:43 -0400
To: <stmfc@...>
Subject: [STMFC] American Memory


If you have broadband and a big disk, considering loading the
archival copy (139 Megabytes) of this Jack Delano photo.

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34800/1a34811v.jpg

It so crisp that it is easy to identify cars even in the 15th row
of the scene.

There are so many interesting cars: MILW double sheathed box cars,
a URTX/MILW steel reefer (can anyone tell me more URTX 10xxx?), a
freshly painted PRR X29, a horse car (?) -- above & right of X29,
a Southern furniture car (double sheathed, double door), and next
to that a freshly stenciled CMStP&P double sheathed car... above
the Southern car I think is a single sheathed L&NE box car... And
yes Mike, an N&W coal hopper !!

More, a Virginian gondola, Sinclair tank cars of many types, a
CofG ventilator box car, an SP double sheathed box car, a very
short SLSF box car lettered with script Frisco Fast Freight (it
looks like a steel car, maybe a 1932 box?), a CGW 1932 box car
(very dirty), a Union Pacific double sheathed box car with white
& yellow lettering, a GM&O single sheathed 1920's box car freshly
painted, a MILW 50ft steel auto car.

Also a 36ft Morrell meat reefer, an M&StL reefer or two, and for
Chet, an NJI&I single sheathed box car (3549?) (upper left of the
yard). Several SFRD reefers, but no PFE or ART reefers anywhere.
I guess that's because PFE and ART kept 'em moving and didn't let
them stand around in railroad yards. :-)

Tim O'Connor






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