Date   

Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 5, 2005, at 2:11 PM, Andy Sperandeo wrote:

If the NMRA had the slightest influence on any of this, it's that the Athearn coupler box was meant to hold an X2f-style horn-hook coupler. And while that coupler was designed by an NMRA committee, and quickly picked up by manufacturers anxious to have a compatible coupler, the organization itself declined to adopt the X2f design either as a standard or a recommended practice. But this is all really old, old news and of very little consequence today.
Not exactly. The X2f fiasco, and the heartburn that resulted in many quarters, is one of the reasons why many NMRA functionaries remain (half a century later) adamant that the NMRA should not become involved in any way in developing coupler standards.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: UP...right and left indications

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Mike and list,

You can be sure the Chief Dispatcher and all the other dispatchers knew which locomotives were assigned to which trains.
Train consists were telegraphed from one yard to the next, teletyped by the end of WW II, so the Dispatcher and Yardmaster not only knew for example that Extra 4018 had the SP perishables, but the car number and contents of every car behind his tender.

As was pointed out, those trains in the timetable were to be operated according to the timetable - annul them and operate extras and you can run them when they fit into the traffic pattern.

When I worked for the AN, everyone called our freights No. 72 and 73, but they were technically extras, so we could set the departure time to meet CSXT traffic at Chattahoochee. If we had a scheduled time, the crew would go on duty at that time. If we knew CSXT was 4 hours late, not only would the crew get paid for the 4 hours sitting in Port St. Joe before departing, but they'd outlaw before they got back!

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UP...right and left indications


Gregg Mahlkov writes:

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more to do
with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train Order
operations than the specific railroad or area. If a train has an assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it.
Interesting. There is definitely a disconnect involved somewhere. For
example, we have the chart from the UPHS showing UP frt train schedules in
1944...including train numbers. We have the 1948 Employee Time Table that
includes at least three of these scheduled trains across Wyoming. We have a
list of names of UP frt trains in the Wyoming and Nebraska Divs for the
early 50s. We know the schedule for perishable trains from Cal. And, yet,
there are no known photos showing anything but an extra frt train between
Cheyenne and Ogden. It may well be that UP had to run all frt trains as
extras...although it seems odd. I'm just saying that there seems to be SOME
logic to putting the $^$#%$ identification of the train somewhere on or in
it. At least someone in operations should know what it is. I can imagine a
UP frt train arriving at Cheyenne, eastbound, finding...as usual...several
other trains waiting to get into the yard. I can imagine the conductors of
all these trains claiming to be SP Forwarder, a high priority train. I
mean...it's cold and snowing and the crews are trying to get to the bar at
the Hitching Post Hotel. The yardmaster asks the dispatcher which is the SP
Forwarder and he replies..."Hell, how should I know." So, they get some
lawyers from the hotel's bar and go look through the cars to see which train
has the most hooch [ Wyoming imported a LOT of wine from Cal ] assuming its
train would be the SP Forwarder.

Extras are
operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the timetable, it
has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within the times
specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the madness of
what
showed in the "indicators".
Perhaps. But from the info we see, there isn't anything identifying a train.
So...how would a dispatcher know to put the low priority sludge train from
Green River into a siding to let the high priority perishable fruit block
by? I mean all he has are the engine numbers.
Remember, the perishable schedule had to be met or penalties would ensue. I
suppose one might simply infer that a train with PFE reefers might be a
perishable train....if eastbound. I can almost imagine a crew grabbing some
empty PFE reefers at, say, Rawlins and hauling them back east so they'd have
priority. This implies icing MT reefers at Laramie but given the UP record
of late, would anyone be surprised?

Mike Brock






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Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Charles Morrill <badlands@...>
 

I also found this particular method of uncoupling to be required when faced with O scale passenger cars equipped with Kadees shorn of their ridiculous looking "uncoupling hooks".;o)) Oh well, back to plan A and scale operating knuckle couplers.
Charlie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:51 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size


SNIP
Andy Sperandeo comments that he can see no way to uncouple the
Sergeant couplers under passenger car diaphragms. I am surprised that
he has not yet learned that it can be simply done by utilizing the
respective two-handed five-finger manual pickup of the two cars
involved, to be then followed by a vigorous semi-coordinated, but
basically random shaking and twirling of the two cars until the
couplers give up the ghost. This uncoupling method, while always
working eventually, also puts to the test one's historical ability to
have firmly mounted the details of each car.

Denny


Re: UP...right and left indications

ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 5, 2005, at 7:00 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

Jeff, Mike, and list,

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more to do with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train Order
operations than the specific railroad or area.
Not true on the UPRR on the Kansas division. Trains with Timetable numbers were operated by Pool crews first in and first out. I have called 155 using the first out pool car and then called an extra with the next pool car. The extra board was used to fill holes where a crew member laid off or if you did not have a rested pool car and would use the extra board it make a crew. If a person laid off and his car went out then he could not mark back up until his car returned. Of course regular trains on a branch line had assigned crews who bid in the job. If you needed an extra on a branch line then you used one of your pool cars.
Also to help branch-line crews with their flagging they would be given a flagging order.
It would read "All westbound extra trains wait at Salina Ks until (a given time). This way if it was not in the timetable they did not have to worry about flagging the rear of their train. They did not have to Worry about their head end because they were in the timetable and the other trains have to look out for them.

If a train has an assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it. Extras are
operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the timetable, it has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within the times
specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the madness of what
showed in the "indicators".

Gregg Mahlkov
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
The 50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is 90% probability you'll get it wrong.


Re: UP...right and left indications

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@g...> wrote:
Jeff, Mike, and list,

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more
to do with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train
Order
operations than the specific railroad or area. If a train has an
assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it.
Extras are
operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the
timetable, it has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within
the times
specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave
the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the
madness of what
showed in the "indicators".

Each crew change point would have enough pool/chain-gang crews to
handle the number of trains run between that point and the next crew
change on a daily basis. A crew would be called for train 355, and,
in the case of the UP, run as an extra. The train number may not
even be in the timetable, but be used as a reference for a certain
train. The dispatcher probably had the train number on his train
sheet along with the indication that the train was running as Ex 4011
West. The extra board provided men to replace regular men in the
pool when they laid off or were on vacation. If an additional crew
was needed to move a train, a crew would be "set up" using extra
board men.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Tim O'Connor
 

Denny,

Although I use the Accurail scale boxes, and appreciate their
detail, I still wish they were made of STYRENE instead of a
material that repels every adhesive known to man. The only
way to attach them is with screws, which mars their appearance
and is also problematic in many cases. The material also is not
easy to cut or file cleanly. What the heck is it made of anyway?
Did I mention they're not easy to paint either?

Mr. Storzek are you listening? :-)

And I have learned to position the draft gear a bit further than
the prototype, because the face of the coupler doesn't protude
as far from the box as a Kadee -- the result being that two cars
with them couple a bit too closely.

Tim O'Connor


Sunshine CNW gon

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Some time ago Tom Wencl asked about the number of grabs on the Sunshine CNW gondola. The kit has provisions for 5 on the right end of the side, while all photos and drawing show only 4.

Last night Lloyd Keyser called. While I had his ear so to speak I took the opportunity to ask about the gon. He was just happy to say he had done the masters. After I asked him about the grabs he tried to say he didn't know who did the masters. Then admitted to screwing up.

So, Tom I think the mystery is solved.

Clark Propst


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Charlie Vlk comments that the MK5 Kadee model defines the market.

Well, it is going to take courage to make the change. Kadee already has done so with its PS-line of cars- and their street prices are not that much different from the many competitors that still stick with the older models.

I would propose that the new standard begin with a "scale" box itself, with couplers, large or scale, the shanks and centering devices of each fitted to the box. This would allow those for whom real time operational coupling/uncoupling on their layouts are a priority to use the larger gathering area of the large coupler, while others are left free to maximise scale appearance.

My standard box these days is the scale Accumate Proto.

After the centering boss is removed from the larger box, the AP box is so designed that it can fit inside any MK 5 box with the AP coupler shank staying at the same relative level designed for the original coupler. The length of the box is such that it can reach all the way to the center sill or the body bolster, if need be- visually blanking the empty space so prevalent there in many models. Once the small box is self-centered in the larger box and fastened down, then the walls (sides, back) of the larger box can be taken down quickly with a pair of nippers. Left visible is only the pristine new scale box, nicely centered, looking exactly like it belonged there.

The above method is what I have doing routinely with Sunshine, Westerfield, Branchline, and Accurail cars with cast or moulded-on large boxes, not to mention others. For those who are skeptical about the surprising good visual impact of the small boxes, I would advise them to just try it. Also, take a look at Ted Culotta's cars in RMC. IMHO, one of the great things about their appearance is the prevalence of the scale boxes (with scale couplers, of course!).

A respected modeler has critically commented to me that in operations, the Accumate Proto's distinctive split-shank can apparently be forced open when being heavily pushed on a curve. I have not yet observed this, but I also am not much into operations (at least, not yet!), and I don't have sharp industrial curves (also, not yet!).

Andy Sperandeo comments that he can see no way to uncouple the Sergeant couplers under passenger car diaphragms. I am surprised that he has not yet learned that it can be simply done by utilizing the respective two-handed five-finger manual pickup of the two cars involved, to be then followed by a vigorous semi-coordinated, but basically random shaking and twirling of the two cars until the couplers give up the ghost. This uncoupling method, while always working eventually, also puts to the test one's historical ability to have firmly mounted the details of each car.

Denny




--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: UP...right and left indications

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Gregg Mahlkov writes:

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more to do with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train Order
operations than the specific railroad or area. If a train has an assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it.
Interesting. There is definitely a disconnect involved somewhere. For example, we have the chart from the UPHS showing UP frt train schedules in 1944...including train numbers. We have the 1948 Employee Time Table that includes at least three of these scheduled trains across Wyoming. We have a list of names of UP frt trains in the Wyoming and Nebraska Divs for the early 50s. We know the schedule for perishable trains from Cal. And, yet, there are no known photos showing anything but an extra frt train between Cheyenne and Ogden. It may well be that UP had to run all frt trains as extras...although it seems odd. I'm just saying that there seems to be SOME logic to putting the $^$#%$ identification of the train somewhere on or in it. At least someone in operations should know what it is. I can imagine a UP frt train arriving at Cheyenne, eastbound, finding...as usual...several other trains waiting to get into the yard. I can imagine the conductors of all these trains claiming to be SP Forwarder, a high priority train. I mean...it's cold and snowing and the crews are trying to get to the bar at the Hitching Post Hotel. The yardmaster asks the dispatcher which is the SP Forwarder and he replies..."Hell, how should I know." So, they get some lawyers from the hotel's bar and go look through the cars to see which train has the most hooch [ Wyoming imported a LOT of wine from Cal ] assuming its train would be the SP Forwarder.

Extras are
operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the timetable, it has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within the times
specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the madness of what
showed in the "indicators".
Perhaps. But from the info we see, there isn't anything identifying a train. So...how would a dispatcher know to put the low priority sludge train from Green River into a siding to let the high priority perishable fruit block by? I mean all he has are the engine numbers.
Remember, the perishable schedule had to be met or penalties would ensue. I suppose one might simply infer that a train with PFE reefers might be a perishable train....if eastbound. I can almost imagine a crew grabbing some empty PFE reefers at, say, Rawlins and hauling them back east so they'd have priority. This implies icing MT reefers at Laramie but given the UP record of late, would anyone be surprised?

Mike Brock


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Tim O'Connor
 

Pat, you (or someone else) got Intermountain's attention, because they
now use either Kadee #5's or #58's on their RTR models. Still not there,
but better than those awful plastic clones.

Frank Angstead was walking around, with a big grin on his face, showing off
their latest creation - the rip-off plastic coupler. He showed it to me, grinning
from ear to ear, and asked me what I thought. I said it looked like a Kadee
coupler but didn't look anything like a real coupler. The grin disappeared in the
blink of an eye.


Re: UP...right and left indications

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

Jeff, Mike, and list,

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more to do with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train Order
operations than the specific railroad or area. If a train has an assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it. Extras are
operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the timetable, it has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within the times
specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the madness of what
showed in the "indicators".
Indeed, on the SOU's Washington Division in the Fall of 1946, many scheduled freight trains were annulled and replaced by extras which allowed the dispatchers greater flexibility - trains could leave earlier or later than scheduled, or a train could be delayed awaiting a connection.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:
Charlie and Denny (and others),

I remember the scathing editorial in the first issue of RPC where they
blasted the HO coupler mfgrs. about the non-scale size and appearance
of the current crop of couplers.
Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California
Actually, it was RP CYC Vol. 3. For you history buffs, I patterned the editorial after Emile
Zola's response to the injustice of the Dreyfus Affair.

The inspiration for the editorial was InterMountain's clone (cheap rip-off) of the Kadee 5
&10 coupler. At the time, at one of the train shows, Frank Angstead was walking around,
with a big grin on his face, showing off their latest creation - the rip-off plastic coupler.
He showed it to me, grinning from ear to ear, and asked me what I thought. I said it
looked like a Kadee coupler but didn't look anything like a real coupler. The grin
disappeared in the blink of an eye. Talk about clueless! I then vowed to use the power of
the press to bring the issue the attention it deserved.

Pat Wider


Re: UP...right and left indications

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Jeff, Mike, and list,

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more to do with union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train Order operations than the specific railroad or area. If a train has an assigned number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it. Extras are operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the timetable, it has the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within the times specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave the Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the madness of what showed in the "indicators".

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "jaley" <jaley@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UP...right and left indications


On Oct 5, 12:01am, Mike Brock wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UP...right and left indications
The odd thing...to me...about UP was the fact that...they steadfastly
refused to identify a frt
train.
Mike,

This practice was only for stupid people in Wyoming. On the
Kansas Division, the indicators had the train number, just as one would
expect.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533




Yahoo! Groups Links









Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Oct 5, 10:21am, Gatwood, Elden wrote:
Subject: RE: [STMFC] NMRA Standards, conventions, et al
How many people go to each one of these events? I only "attended" one
NMRA event; the Long Beach one being in my backyard, and found it to be
a zoo (the parade of baby strollers was astounding). Are Naperville and
Cocoa really getting that large, or has NMRA shrunk down, or both?

Elden Gatwood
Elden,

Permit me to point out that the Naperville and Cocoa Beach PM
meets are very different in structure from the NMRA conventions.

The focus of Cocoa Beach (and, I infer, Naperville), is on the
clinics that take place in the meeting rooms. While there *is* a ballroom
with model displays and a few manufacturers and retailers, it is NOT
really a "train show". This is in marked contrast to the NMRA's "National
Train Show", or (I infer) the Springfield or Amhearst shows.

I, for one, take my enjoyment from attending clinics, and from
talking to like-minded prototype modelers in between the clinics.

[Please note my bias: I am the Clinic Chairman at Prototype Rails
in Cocoa Beach].

Regards,

-Jeff Aley




--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: UP...right and left indications

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Oct 5, 12:01am, Mike Brock wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UP...right and left indications
The odd thing...to me...about UP was the fact that...they steadfastly
refused to identify a frt
train.
Mike,

This practice was only for stupid people in Wyoming. On the
Kansas Division, the indicators had the train number, just as one would
expect.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Drains On Refrigerator Cars

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Oct 4, 11:36pm, Anthony Thompson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Drains On Refrigerator Cars
The description you quoted, Bob, sounds like a refrigerated
trailer drain. On freight cars, the drains on a produce reefer could be
closed (they were hinged to do that), but I'd agree with you that I
doubt they were closed when ice was in use. The time they might be
closed would be if the car were in vent service, or if the car was
being used for other freight, neither vent nor ice service.
Tony,

Why would one WANT to close the drains on a reefer? To keep out
vermin, perhaps?

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Charlie Vlk writes:

Yes, it would have been better if Kadee and the NMRA had established
something more to scale but that doesn't change the reality of the
marketplace that we have to deal with today.
Yes. My point was that, in 2000, some including myself, were advocating a scale AND realistically looking coupler. As with track and wheel RP's, an additional RP for couplers and coupler pockets would not have supplanted but merely have been in addition to existing RP's and standards. The point is, it would have allowed the NMRA to be a leader instead of a follower.

More than likely, given that some current scale couplers will interface with the Kadee #5, scale couplers and pockets might have been more associated with resin cars and their purchasers...often more interested in scale modeling.

Mike Brock


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

Pat,

There has been concern with assembly of the couplers in larger scales, however, the HO are listed as being sold assembled. Haven't used them, just seen them on one of our Chapter member's S scale cars. They are nice looking; how they work I can't say.

Fred Freitas

----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Wider
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:16 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size


--- In STMFC@..., "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:

> And, of course, if you don't want to compromise at all look at the
> Sergent Proto87 coupler http://user.icx.net/~sergent/index.htm . Wow!
>
I have several questions concerning these good-looking couplers:

1. Has anyone bought them in bulk and used them for an extended period of time on an
operating layout with grades in trains having at least 30 cars?
2. Do they operate reliably over these grades with the associated slack action, unavoidable
jolts, and with pusher locomotives?
3. Will they operate reliably between powered (MU'd) locomotives?
4. Do they stay assembled, that is, does the ACC'd bond remain sound?
5. Apparently, they have to be filed down to fit a scale draft gear box. Has anyone actually
done this?
6. They are sold in batches of 5 with no draft gear box. What the heck????
7. I will need hundreds of the darn things as I convert over. Will this company still be in
business 5 years from now? It has the appearance of a part time, cottage industry,
basement operation. If it folds in a couple of years, we're back to where we started. What's
the scoop here??? At least Kadee has been around for as long as I can remember.

If they don't work reliably or aren't consistently available for the foreseeable future, the
Kadee #78 couplers would be a "good" compromise or the Cal Scale #302 dummy couplers
might suffice. The latter look good but might be a bit oversize.

Pat Wider




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Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@c...> wrote:
Denny-
The greater market is for the Kadee #5 box. I would imagine that
the sales
of the Sargeant coupler in the gross box might support tooling a
scale draft
gear and coupler head, but the vast majority of sales are going to
be in the
Kadee #5 box..... many operators just want reliable couplers to put
into
their existing equipment and don't want to deal with hacking away the
existing draft gear to install scale sized boxes.
Yes, it would have been better if Kadee and the NMRA had established
something more to scale but that doesn't change the reality of the
marketplace that we have to deal with today.
Charlie Vlk
Charlie and Denny (and others),

I remember the scathing editorial in the first issue of RPC where they
blasted the HO coupler mfgrs. about the non-scale size and appearance
of the current crop of couplers. Yes, I'd like the Sergent coupler to
fit a more scale box (and I agree that 5 per package is silly) but, to
me, the appearance of the coupler, sticking out from the end of the
car is more noticeable than the box it is in.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California


Re: Ingoldsby Dump Car

Justin Kahn
 

I just received the latest Gazette, and there is an ad by Cimarron (www.cimarronworks.com) for a "Crystal River Ingoldsby Dump Gon" in Sn3 and On30 (that won't help HO scale modelers much), which is supposed to be a urethane casting with brass detail parts.
I don't know if that is what he heard.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

A friend asked me the following question. I have no idea what he's talking about. Can anyone help?
Clark Propst

I vaguely remember seeing a kit from Detail Associates (or some such) for an Ingoldsby bottom dump hopper car. Do you recall any such a kit?
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