Date   

Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Andreas Kühnpast <Andreas.Kuehnpast@...>
 

Andy Sperandeo wrote:

For whatever it's worth, my own current preference is to use Kadee no. 78 couplers wherever I can, especially on resin kits, and Kadee no. 58 couplers when I have to accept a wide no. 5-size box. Since Kadee has improved its scale-size couplers by eliminating the obvious gap between the knuckle and the coupler head, I don't feel this is giving up very much in appearance.
Andy,

I have # 58 couplers without "The Gap", but have the # 78 couplers too been changed to the new design without gap?

Andreas Kuehnpast


Re: Tank Car Ladders

Richard Townsend
 

I've been a subscriber to this list for a while and I am well aware of Tony's tendencies.<G>. I was trying to pull everyone's leg a little by creating a circular logic problem (find the left side by facing the B end, find the B end by facing the left side, etc.).

But in response to Tony's 50% comment, I think it was Yogi Berra who said something to the effect of if you have a 50-50 chance of being right, 90% of the time you'll pick the wrong one.<g>

"wmcclark1980" <walterclark@...> wrote:

Richard,

Tony is pulling your leg (something he has been known to do, rarely).
The B end is the end with the brake wheel (or lever, as the case may
be). �Of course if the car (like a caboose) has a brake wheel at each
end, then the B end is the end towards which the rod from the brake
cylinder points.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
Richard Townsend wrote:
The obvious next question is which end is the B end. �To identify the
B end, you stand facing the left side of the car. �The B end will be
on your right.
� � � � �Well, an alternative is to guess A vs. B. You have a 50%
chance
of being correct, which is better than most things in life. � � <g>

Tony Thompson � � � � � � Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 � � � � www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history



--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


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Sant Fe Dry Ice Reefers

Gerard J Fitzgerald <gjf@...>
 

There is a short description in the product review section of the new issue of
"The Warbonnet" (Third Quarter-2005 [Vol 12, No. 2]) detailing Sunshine's Sante
Fe dry ice reefers. This very short, but informative review, talks about three
car designs and the hauling of carbon dioxide from a natural source near Witt,
New Mexico to Spencer Chemical in Pittsburgh, Kansas. My questions concern
whether these types of cars were unique to just the Sante Fe? If not who else
transported carbon dioxide in this manner during the period between say 1930
and 1950? More information about the Sante Fe operations would be of interest
too especially pertaining to the movement of these cars to other industries or
off line to other parts of the country.

I will note I am not a Sante Fe modeler but pick up the magazine at my local
hobby shop on occasion and I am always very impressed by both the articles and
modeling.

Gerard

Dr. Gerard J. Fitzgerald
Postdoctoral Fellow, Center for Bioethics
University of Pennsylvania


Re: NKP Car Movements

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Bill, do you have (or can easily move) this data in a spreadsheet? It would
make counts a lot easier and I could run the cars against my ORER database
and for those that match provide in return all the germaine series
dimensional data.

Dave Nelson


Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Naperville will be over 400 this year. NMRA national conventions still
draw considerably more than that, of course, but their attendance
declines steadily, along with NMRA membership as a whole<
Bad memory but I think the SFRH&MS draws somewhere between 300 to 500.
All depends where the convention is held.


Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: More NKP Car Movements - Jan. 1948 Box and Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

The B&M/ST moved milled flour from New England Milling in Ayer MA
to Prince Spaghetti in Lowell MA, about 20 miles or less. I think this
still exists although the pasta factory has changed hands. After the
NKP waybill info I wonder if this was on special 2-step waybills too.

Tim O.

The other movement that caught my eye (since I'm a
Monon guy) is the traffic to Sheridan Indiana, a mere
20 miles away. I've seen waybills for short (even 10
miles and less) movements from the turn of the
century, but not this late. Must have still made
sense in 1948.


Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 5, 2005, at 9:28 AM, Mike Brock wrote:

Tim O'Connor writes:

Naperville attracts about 300-400 people. As far as I know that's
about 1/3 as large as an NMRA convention. Someone said WPM
attracts about 125-150 people. I don't know how many go to
Cocoa Beach but it seemed like 150-200 folks.
In fact, Cocoa Beach had 251 in 2004, 232 in 2005. Ideally, a goal would be
300-350. The current numbers seem to allow attendees to easily participate
and the facilities...now expanded and generously improved...can easily
handle such numbers.
Naperville will be over 400 this year. NMRA national conventions still draw considerably more than that, of course, but their attendance declines steadlly, along with NMRA membership as a whole.

More important than numbers, as Pierre Oliver pointed out, is who attends the prototype modelers' meetings. I became a convert at the first Naperville meeting, now twelve years ago, when I observed that almost everyone there was someone I already knew, or knew about, and wanted to connect with. Not a single "vestie" dim-wit in the place, and no tiresome bus trips to lame layouts that were third-rate imitations of the Gorre & Daphetid.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Barber S2 Trucks with spring planks

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 5, 2005, at 6:42 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Tom, what other freight or express cars used these trucks? They
don't look like ordinary freight car S-2's.
Tim is correct, the truck on the IM Pfaudler milk cars are high speed Barber trucks and are quite different in appearance from the S-2 trucks with spring planks used on cars in freight service.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: More NKP Car Movements - Jan. 1948 Box and Tank Cars

Michael Aufderheide
 

Bill & Tim,

The other movement that caught my eye (since I'm a
Monon guy) is the traffic to Sheridan Indiana, a mere
20 miles away. I've seen waybills for short (even 10
miles and less) movements from the turn of the
century, but not this late. Must have still made
sense in 1948.

Mike Aufderheide

--- Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

Andy Sperandeo wrote:

Okay, here's the answer to the all-important
question of which Santa
Fe boxcars were carrying beans and bean meal for
the Nickel Plate in 1948:

ATSF 210497, class Bx11, 40-foot single-sheathed
car built 1929

ATSF 211130, class Bx12, 40-foot single-sheathed
car built 1930

ATSF 135563, class Bx13, 40-foot single-sheathed
car built 1931

ATSF 136494, class Bx26, 40-foot steel car built
1936, based on 1932
AAR standard, with Duryea cushion underframe

ATSF 272926, class Bx46, 40-foot steel car rebuilt
1945 from Bx8- or
9-class double-sheathed cars (based on ARA
standard design)

Andy,

Since Bill Darnaby's List includes only movements
from the Swift
operation in Frankfort, your answer should restrict
itself to movements
from that Swift plant in January 1948. What empty
ATSF boxcars were
available for loading in succeeding months right now
have yet to be
released by Bill (except there were no ATSF boxcars
in Bill's list for
June 1948).

In the January 1948 List, there were 41 boxcars and
17 tank cars listed.

Seven (17.1% of 41) of the boxcars were owned by the
NKP which was more
in line with the 16.0% 1948 Home Car percentage (the
home road
percentage was 11.9% in 1947) than the over 75% NKP
boxcars in June.
Three of the January loadings were in NKP's #27500
series versus June's
23 in the #27700 series.

Railroads in all eight ICC Regions owned the 34
Foreign Boxcars. Two
were from the New England Region (both from the NH);
Three from the
NKP's home region, the Great Lakes Region (one each
by the AA, ERIE and
WAB); Six from the Central East Region (3 from the
PRR, 2 from the WM
and one by the B&O); One from the Pocahontas Region
(N&W); Six from the
Southern Region (3 from the ICC and one each from
the GM&O, NC&SL and
SOU); Seven owned by roads in the Northwest Region
(3 by the MILW, 2 by
the GN and one each by the NP and SOO); Seven by
roads in the Central
West Region (5 by the ATSF and one each by the RI
and WP); One by a
Southwest Road (SLSF); and One Canadian (CP).

One of the surprises so far in the two months which
Bill has released is
no NYC Boxcars yet. But to answer Andy's "question"
about ATSF boxcars,
I suppose almost any empty ATSF boxcar passing
through Frankfort was
eligible to be culled and placed at Swift for
loading.

The fifteen tank cars listed in January 1948 like
the June 1948 List
show the relationship between private car owners and
consignee/lessee.
There was one empty returned to Indianapolis, UTLX
#12030. Since UTLX
was in the business of leasing only to petroleum
companies or refiners,
#12030 probably carried some sort of fuel oil or
lubricant to the Swift
operation and was being returned empty.

The 14 of other sixteen tanks carried Bean Oil. Six
loads were sent to
the Swift & Company Refinery in Port Newark NJ on
the PRR; four of the
lads were in GATX cars while two in SHPX cars. Since
GATX purchased
Swift's tanker fleet (SWTX) in 1930, SHPX's
participation is surprising.

Another four loads were dispatched in GATX cars to
Archer-Daniels-Midland in Edgewater NJ (PRR). Two
loads were dispatched
in SWTX (the old Swift tank car reporting mark) tank
cars to an unknown
consignee on the CNJ in Port Newark. Another GATX
was loaded with Bean
Oil and sent to the PRR Interchange in Frankfort -
no consignee noted.
The last loaded tank car was an SHPX one sent to the
EF Drew Co. in
Boonton NJ (DL&W).

Two empties, GATX and SWTX owned, were sent to
Swift's Fostoria OH plant.

Looking forward to the listing of more of these car
movements. Any
comments on my analysis so far on either tank cars
or boxcars.

Tim Gilbert



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Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Isn't this discussion getting off subject?????????????

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., "Rich C" <richchrysler@q...> wrote:
Tim wrote: <snip>
It would be very interesting to know just how many people out
there consider themselves to be "prototype modelers" -- and really
mean "modeler", not just someone who adheres to buying only
prototypical models but doesn't really do any modeling.
My personal guess is that there are less than 10,000 such people
in the U.S... a small fraction of the "model railroading" community.

Naperville attracts about 300-400 people. >
I'd bet there are a lot less than 10,000 prototype modelers in the whole
world, otherwise the number better kit manufacturers (for one instance)
wouldn't be so small.

For serious prototype modelers as Tim has described above, I'd guess more
like 1500 in all North America.

I feel I can call myself a prototype modeler, zeroing in on constructing a
layout focused and reproducing actual scenes of an operating railway set in
a specific place and time. Judging by the comments I get each year in a
local annual day of layout tours where a couple hundred people visit, I'm
one of an extremely rare breed. In a relative hotbed of modelers here in
Southern Ontario, I can think of maybe a dozen who might fall into this
category. We've been able to seek each other out for exchanges of talent,
ideas and moral support.

I have to fully agree with Pierre's observation that an NMRA convention
tries to please everybody in one place and time, which just adds to watering
down any one specific focus, no matter what it might be.

Rich Chrysler
CNR Hagersville Sub
June 1950


Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

Rich C <richchrysler@...>
 

Tim wrote: <snip>
It would be very interesting to know just how many people out
there consider themselves to be "prototype modelers" -- and really
mean "modeler", not just someone who adheres to buying only
prototypical models but doesn't really do any modeling.
My personal guess is that there are less than 10,000 such people
in the U.S... a small fraction of the "model railroading" community.

Naperville attracts about 300-400 people. >
I'd bet there are a lot less than 10,000 prototype modelers in the whole world, otherwise the number better kit manufacturers (for one instance) wouldn't be so small.

For serious prototype modelers as Tim has described above, I'd guess more like 1500 in all North America.

I feel I can call myself a prototype modeler, zeroing in on constructing a layout focused and reproducing actual scenes of an operating railway set in a specific place and time. Judging by the comments I get each year in a local annual day of layout tours where a couple hundred people visit, I'm one of an extremely rare breed. In a relative hotbed of modelers here in Southern Ontario, I can think of maybe a dozen who might fall into this category. We've been able to seek each other out for exchanges of talent, ideas and moral support.

I have to fully agree with Pierre's observation that an NMRA convention tries to please everybody in one place and time, which just adds to watering down any one specific focus, no matter what it might be.

Rich Chrysler
CNR Hagersville Sub
June 1950


Re: Barber S2 Trucks with spring planks

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Thanks for the good detective work, Tom! I am sure we will all benefit.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Thomas M. Olsen
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:07 PM
To: Steam Freight Car List
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Barber S2 Trucks with spring planks

List,
An ongoing topic regarding trucks usually ends up with some members
lamenting the inability to get solid bearing Barber S2 Trucks with
spring planks. Just recently, Intermountain brought out the steel
Pfaudler Milk cars and may have solved our Barber truck dilemma. These
cars come equipped with Barber S2 trucks with spring planks. On Monday,

I spoke with Sara at Intermountain to inquire whether their Pfaudler
cars came as undecorated kits (yes, they do!) and whether the trucks
were available.

She said that they were available, but only in bulk! At present, they
have them in stock in bulk and would inquire with her supervisors if it
would be okay to sell them in that fashion to me. I advised that I
would like a dozen pair and that I normally bought intermountain
equipment through Sattler's Hobby Shop in Westmont, NJ. She remarked
that she was very familiar with that establishment, but would get back
to me by this afternoon. I spoke with Sattler's and Bruce Koehler, the
owner, said that he was going to call them that afternoon to place an
order for a number of items and would discuss my request with them.
This was fine with me.

This morning I spoke with both Sattler's and Intermountain and the
Barber S2 Trucks would be included in Sattler's order that would go out
sometime this week. In my conversation with Sara at Intermountain this
morning, I asked if it would be possible for others to obtain the trucks

(in bulk, unpackaged) directly. She advised me that anyone interested
in the trucks could place an order and they would be happy to sell them
up to the point where they run out of them.

At present, there has not been a decision to specifically produce these
trucks separately, but perhaps in the future, if there is a demand, they

could possibly do so. My advice is take a look at the Intermountain
steel Pfaudler Milk cars and decide that these are what you can use. If

they are, I would not hesitate to place a direct order with
Intermountain for them. At this time, I do not have a part number, so
you would have to specify exactly what it is you wish to buy!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Brancy
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

Naperville attracts about 300-400 people. As far as I know that's
about 1/3 as large as an NMRA convention. Someone said WPM
attracts about 125-150 people. I don't know how many go to
Cocoa Beach but it seemed like 150-200 folks.
In fact, Cocoa Beach had 251 in 2004, 232 in 2005. Ideally, a goal would be 300-350. The current numbers seem to allow attendees to easily participate and the facilities...now expanded and generously improved...can easily handle such numbers.

Mike Brock


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:

And, of course, if you don't want to compromise at all look at the
Sergent Proto87 coupler http://user.icx.net/~sergent/index.htm . Wow!
I have several questions concerning these good-looking couplers:

1. Has anyone bought them in bulk and used them for an extended period of time on an
operating layout with grades in trains having at least 30 cars?
2. Do they operate reliably over these grades with the associated slack action, unavoidable
jolts, and with pusher locomotives?
3. Will they operate reliably between powered (MU'd) locomotives?
4. Do they stay assembled, that is, does the ACC'd bond remain sound?
5. Apparently, they have to be filed down to fit a scale draft gear box. Has anyone actually
done this?
6. They are sold in batches of 5 with no draft gear box. What the heck????
7. I will need hundreds of the darn things as I convert over. Will this company still be in
business 5 years from now? It has the appearance of a part time, cottage industry,
basement operation. If it folds in a couple of years, we're back to where we started. What's
the scoop here??? At least Kadee has been around for as long as I can remember.

If they don't work reliably or aren't consistently available for the foreseeable future, the
Kadee #78 couplers would be a "good" compromise or the Cal Scale #302 dummy couplers
might suffice. The latter look good but might be a bit oversize.

Pat Wider


Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Eldon,
I've only ever attended one NMRA convention.(Toronto) Only because it
was in my backyard. Now I can say I've attended one. While I had a
pleasent time it's not something I expect to ever repeat. The
convention trys to be too many things to too many people in my opinion.
The PMS in Naperville draws from a more focused crowd, thus I find
myself in a convention with people who share more of the same kinds of
interests. That I suspect is the reason why we are seeing an increase
in numbers at the more select meets.
I'm willing to bet that the term Prototype Modeler scares off a sizable
percentage of model railroaders who prefer not to progress beyond the
4x8 layout and the lower end models.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@h...>
wrote:
How many people go to each one of these events? I only "attended" one
NMRA event; the Long Beach one being in my backyard, and found it to
be
a zoo (the parade of baby strollers was astounding). Are Naperville
and
Cocoa really getting that large, or has NMRA shrunk down, or both?

Elden Gatwood



Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

Tim O'Connor
 

It would be very interesting to know just how many people out
there consider themselves to be "prototype modelers" -- and really
mean "modeler", not just someone who adheres to buying only
prototypical models but doesn't really do any modeling. I suspect
there are many people who never go to conventions, or Naperville
or any RPM events, who never publish stuff, but are still very good
"prototype modelers". And it is important to recognize that some
very fine contributors on this list are not modelers at all, but rather
are just people who appreciate accurate models.

My personal guess is that there are less than 10,000 such people
in the U.S... a small fraction of the "model railroading" community.

Naperville attracts about 300-400 people. As far as I know that's
about 1/3 as large as an NMRA convention. Someone said WPM
attracts about 125-150 people. I don't know how many go to
Cocoa Beach but it seemed like 150-200 folks. I think the RPM
meet in CT in the spring had more than 100.

The Springfield show in MA gets 20,000 visits but that includes
a lot of 2-day attendees, so it's probably more like 15-16,000.

Tim O'Connor


Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

How many people go to each one of these events? I only "attended" one
NMRA event; the Long Beach one being in my backyard, and found it to be
a zoo (the parade of baby strollers was astounding). Are Naperville and
Cocoa really getting that large, or has NMRA shrunk down, or both?

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Bob Webber
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:29 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

The Narrow Gauge convention last year out drew
the NMRA - and I always considered the NG crowd
the forerunners of the prototype modeler crowd
(that is, until "G" scale and On30). Though to
be honest, I have a feeling that the NNGC will
implode under its own weight if it continues down
the same path it is. There are, not unlike the
SG arena, more and more sub-conventions popping
up that are siphoning off the creme for the more focused modeler to
attend.

Don't forget the biffy parade.

And, I'm not writing as a slam on the NMRA or a
political note, though both could certainly be
done with no lack of ease. As Richard rightly
points out, the PM area is the de facto standards
committee. Were it not for the PM crowd, there
would be no scale coupler or more accurate wheel
sets. Certainly, the NMRA has not and will not
drive it. The NMRA is in league with the "Ready
to Roll" crowd, as is Model Railroader (which has
also been an oxymoron for some time in most
cases). Between the STMFC and the PCL lists,
there are the same number of people as at a NMRA
convention, and with considerably less "draw"
from the show. And that's just two of the more
PM-leaning lists (though to be sure there is a
lot of overlap). But, I would have to say that,
by and large, manufacturers are finding contacts
there (or within that subset) for serious
consultation rather than at the NMRA - there by becoming the de facto
standard.

At 12:46 AM 10/5/2005, you wrote:
"standards." At the rate things are going, the Naperville and Cocoa
Beach prototype modelers' conventions will soon outdraw the NMRA
nationals and the NMRA will fade away like the Cheshire cat - a fate it
richly deserves.
Richard Hendrickson

Bob Webber






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Re: Southern Car and Foundry coupler box

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Rob Kirkham asks:



Mike, will the coupler boxes accomodate the Sergent coupler?
I hesitate to answer...not having a Sergent coupler handy. It will accept a Kadee #78. If the Sergent shank is no larger than the 78, it should work OK.

Mike Brock


Re: UP freight car colours

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote: "The stock car you saw was . . . painted for UP's Livestock Despatch service (not sure of the date, around 1948-1950) and rarely went off line."

Actually class S-40-10 stockcars (now there's an HO kit I'd like to have!) were first painted yellow with aluminum (silver) roofs in 1947, coinciding with the inauguration of the DLS ("Daylight Livestock") trains from Salt Lake City to Los Angeles. At the same time the cars were also equipped with roller bearings, marked by yellow-painted lids on their conventional journal boxes. They did get offline occasionally - I've seen a photo of one at the Cudahy plant in San Diego, which was served by the Santa Fe.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
Phone: 262-796-8776, ex. 461
Fax: 262-796-1142
www.modelrailroader.com


Re: Westinghouse AB-8 automatic empty and load brake

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Brian Carlson asked about empty-and-loaded brake equipment. Its primary application is on hopper cars and other open-top equipment where there's regularly a great variation between the empty and loaded car weight. It automatically senses the car's empty or loaded condition and applies less braking pressure when the car is empty.

I recall learning about it when "Model Railroader" published a drawing of a Southern Pacific H-100-23 hopper, in the June 1988 issue, pages 92-93. However, those cars were built in 1970 with ABD brake valves and truck-mounted brake cylinders, and used Westinghouse SC-1 empty-and-load equipment as described in my article accompanying the drawing. Since then I've noticed empty-and-loaded brake equipment on other hoppers, but I haven't made a study of how widely it was used.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
Phone: 262-796-8776, ex. 461
Fax: 262-796-1142
www.modelrailroader.com

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