In a message dated 12/22/2005 7:36:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ljack70117@... writes:

When a conductor on the UN Pac listed his loads and empties in his train, he
always counted his caboose as a load.


---> and if engine where counted (which I know were not), the conductor
would have counted them as MT's! <G> Of course, the head-end crew would probably
have agreed thinking he was 'full of it'! <VBG>


Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District

I didn't know it was poor paper but RMC's look doesn't seem to be up
to the same standard as MM.
Gene Green
--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@c... wrote:

Richard

The problem with RMC is that Bill uses a poor quality paper that
does not age well... My 25 year old Mainline Modelers are as crisp
as when they were brand new, but I can't say the same for RMC!

Tim O.


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>

On Dec 22, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Titles can be misleading – MR, for example, might be better

titled "Toy

Trains Illustrated" – but it's worth noting the RMC's full

moniker is

Railroad Model CRAFTSMAN

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@c... wrote:

I would love to have my complete collection of MR's Trains MM's and other
magazines on my hard-drive... Considering how much weight and shelf space
it costs me, I would be happy to pay $500 to $1000 to achieve it (we're talking
about over 2,000 magazines). Back in the 1960's my father tried to save space
by photocopying articles -- now I have about 200 lbs of photocopies too!! It
saves me a huge amount of time to be able to search my hard drive for data.
With the Google desktop being able to index PDF files, this would work wonders
for finding exactly what I need with fewer chances of mistakes or omissions. I
can scan pages myself but you can imagine how many hours it would take to
scan 100,000+ pages -- not to mention how many scanners I'd burn up in the
process.

And while we're at it, I'd sure like a complete set of Railway Ages, and National
Geographics, on disk.

Man, if I could get rid of the magazines I could add a whole new section to the
shelf layout!

Here's what I do - I search the old magazines for articles on freight cars that I think are
worth saving. BTW: many of those old articles are poorly researched, have drawings that
are riddled with errors, and their photo quality is marginal at best. I then throw away the
rest of the magazine. Why keep the ancient ads, the irrelevent editorials, and the articles
on building layouts on a 4x8-foot sheet of plywood??????? The amount of useless paper
goes way down in a hurry!!!!!

Note: I do not do that with the Railway Ages in my collection. It's not necessary.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Kahn" <harumd@h...> wrote:

I am still trying to figure out what
possessed me to buy #12 with the lightweight passenger cars (completeness, I
suppose); I have to blame myself for that, as you played fair by not mixing
other topics of more interest with them.

I'm just curious, do any of you guys model passenger trains during the period of interest
(God, I'm off subject, Mike - please forgive me for a second), especially since Branchline
came out with some really nice Pullman heavyweights (thank you Tom Madden) and
Walthers came out with some respectable (and at last useful) lightweights???

Please respond off list to avoid contaminating this fine group with radioactive passenger-
car pollution. Thanks!!!!!

Someone out there MUST have been interested in Budd's shot welding process or how you
can actually cool a car with steam. That took a bunch of research on my part!!!!!! (-:

Pat Wider

All;



Dennis Rockwell brought up an interesting point as input to my
question(s) about what we could be doing better in TKM (or elsewhere, I
guess), which I wanted to answer; and for feedback from more
knowledgeable folks:



"Modelling known freight flows by correlating extant paperwork, or
supplementing information available from such documents as "Arranged
Freight" with tidbits like sizes of blocks (what do we know about the
cars that were carried daily in the second block of train AB-123?) or
just the known lengths of trains, for better traffic modelling. (Dennis
Rockwell)"



I wanted to pass on that this is a subject of great interest to me, and
also of GREAT frustration, because so few complete sources of
information exist.



As example, my friend Jack Consoli and I (and I am certain, others) have
tried in vain for many years to find just ONE consist for a freight
train on the PRR's Monongahela Division/Branch. It would obviously tell
us all sorts of interesting information. Key among the needs are:



Number of cars in train;

Number of cars per block;

Types of cars in train, in block, by road and all the details

Origination and Destination of each car (industry, or block to yard)



No consist has turned up.



Luckily, however, Jack dug up a copy of a document in which all RRs in
the Pgh area were analyzed in detail, for one day in 1934. It includes
number of cars per train, for trains arriving or departing a given yard,
its direction, and hour of arrival or departure. We also have other
sources of info that we can use to piece things together.



Here's my point: The trouble is relating this to any "published" freight
train schedule, like the "Arranged Freight Trains..." document. There
is literally, almost no correlation, on THAT line, between schedule and
reality. The hours are all off, so it is hard to correlate a specific
train to the real number of cars. When you have a train on either side
of the published departure time, that each resemble the type of train
(direction, through or local, appropriate number of cars...), you cannot
be certain.



That being said, you can do a few of them, due to the absence of other
trains around the scheduled time, and the indication of its direction
and all.



But, what I find expected in all this is the degree of flexibility that
the RRs maintained, so they could get all the trains in and out they
needed, within the general constraint of knowing there were trains
following...Thus, the divergence between "scheduled" and reality.



The advice I'd give on this subject is to try to re-create the blocks,
by establishing the industries served, their traffic needs, and car
types, by who was served by the yard that received each block, then
assembling the blocks into a train, which might be confirmed by data on
the number of cars per train. It is not exact, but MAY be closer to
what you need than you have currently.



An example follows:



SC10 Conway to West Brownsville (Return of SC9 earlier that same day)
[1960-'65]


THIS TRAIN TRAVERSED MOST OF THE MON RIVER LINE


@ Conway, protect connection from Trains: WC-2, ED-38, FW-8, ST-2, SW-4,
SW-10, ED-24, GRE-2, and ED-28 of previous day.



Consist: "All cars per make-up."



Make-Up: "Block 1: Thomson - Kenny District, including McKeesport,
South Duquesne, and Union RR at Kenny.

Block 2: South Duquesne, exclusive, to Clairton, inclusive.

Block 3: Shire Oaks and beyond.

Block 4: Fillout - Empty hopper cars."



This train originated (as SC9) in West Brownsville at 8:00 p.m.,
arrived in Conway at 2:00 a.m., picked up its new train, left Conway as
SC10 at 3:30 a.m., passed Esplen at 5:00 a.m., arrived in Thomson around
6:00 a.m., set off Block #1, left Thomson, arrived in Clairton around
6:30 a.m., set off Block #2, left Clairton, arrived in Shire Oaks around
7:00 a.m., set off Block #3, protecting connection with train MA-52 of
the same day, left Shire Oaks, and arrived in West Brownsville at 8:30
a.m., setting out the fillout of empty hopper cars. [Data for 1934
indicates 76 cars as originated].

Given the origination in West Brownsville, this train almost
certainly utilized motive power from Shire Oaks in turn-around service.
Given the length of the run, and the fact that little switching was
done, this could easily have used cab power as hood power. Therefore,
you were equally likely to see an FA as an RS-3. The train consisted
almost exclusively of cars destined for loading at local industries and
mines, including empty 50' double door and single door autoparts boxes
for GM's Irvin plant (photos indicate PRR, NYC, B&O, WAB, P&LE, T&P,
NKP, ATSF, and others), empty gons destined for USSteel's South
Duquesne, McKeesport and Clairton Works (again, PRR, P&LE, B&O and local
roads dominate), the occasional flat loaded with sheet steel for
McKeesport, and empty hoppers (primarily PRR, with a large number of
P&LE; occasionally some B&O, NYC, Montour, P&WV, etc.) for PRR and
Monongahela Railway served mines around and south of West Brownsville.



Motive Power: Usual motive power would probably have been that assigned
to Shire Oaks. Given the substantial size of the train, this would
likely have involved multiple unit configurations, which included:

FA-1: 9600, 9601, 9602, 9603, 9604, 9605, 9606, 9607.

FB-1: 9600B, 9601B, 9602B, 9603B, 9604B, 9605B, 9606B, 9607B.

FA-2: 9608, 9609, 9610, 9611, 9612, 9613, 9614, 9615, 9616, 9617, 9618,
9619, 9620, 9621, 9622, 9623, 9624, 9625, 9626, 9627, 9628, 9629, 9630,
9631.

FB-2: 9608B, 9610B, 9612B, 9614B, 9616B, 9618B, 9620B, 9622B, 9624B,
9626B, 9628B, 9630B.

PA-1: 5752, 5753, 5754, 5759 (only to early '62).

PB-1: 5750B, 5752B, 5754B, 5756B, 5758B. (ditto)

Although unlikely, it may have included:

RS-3: 8590, 8591, 8595, 8604, 8605, 8821, 8822, 8823, 8824, 8825, 8826,
8827, 8828, 8829, 8830.



Cabin Assignment(s): This train may have used any of the W. Brownsville
general pool cars, including N5 477447, N5 477393, N5 477379, N5 477548
(General Pool), or extras N5 477180, or N5C 477948 (Extra).





This was done from CT-1000, MP-229, interviews, various odd sources,
industry publications, the cabin assignment list, and maps.



I hope this approach may be of help in your efforts.



Elden Gatwood

On Dec 22, 2005, at 1:39 PM, Charles Etheredge wrote:

One thing I wish the manufacturers would do is to indicate on their
boxes the time period that particular car existed...time built until
approximate disappearance. ( 1919-1955 or whatever). Branchline is
the only one I know of that does this to any degree. It would sure
help those of us who aren't as up on specifics as others. It would
make my time looking and wondering about a specific new kit at the
hobby shop a lot shorter.

This plea comes up on the STMFC list with monotonous regularity, and has been made equally often to various manufacturers. The response invariably is that it would reduce sales. The argument is that a lot of freight car models are sold to impulse buyers who "just like the looks" of a particular model or who buy it because it represents a car owned by their favorite RR, regardless of era, but might be discouraged from buying if the date on the model was way out of their era (assuming they even have a a modeling era). Whether that's actually true or not is irrelevant, because the manufacturers believe it and are not about to experiment in a way they're sure would be to their disadvantage. Kudos to list member Bill Schneider at Branchline for swimming upstream on this one, but don't expect others to follow suit.

Richard Hendrickson

--- In STMFC@..., Garth Groff <ggg9y@v...> wrote:

Pat,

I enjoy the in-depth prototype articles you present (well, not so much
the passenger stuff, but that's just me), but there's more to this hobby
than just data. In your earlier efforts there were more articles on
actually building models, similar to Ted's RMC series. I would like to
see these return.

Well with the introduction of Ted's PRM, we kinda have a gentlemen's agreement that RP
CYC will focus on the full size stuff more and he'll focus more on the modeling aspects of
the real stuff. I think we can complement each other that way.

Pat Wider

Tim,

You really owe to yourself to get out more. :)

National Geographic has been availabe on CD since 1999 - all 110 years at that time including every page and every map. But, rather than buying it from Amazon starting at $199 go to a local computer show or elsewhere. You should be able to find it for less than $100. Good luck and Enjoy!

Best regards,

David Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri

==========

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

I might offer, tongue firmly in cheek:

http://therailwire.net/smf/index.php?topic=6923.0
http://therailwire.net/smf/index.php?topic=5829.0

Who says N scalers don't have a sense of humor?

This stuff is brilliant. But possibly not helping with the heartburn in Waukesha. I have to point out, though, that Richard Hendrickson and I, years ago, proposed the "circle layout" in the issue of RMC for, yes, APRIL. Few seem to have got it. Which in hindsight is perhaps sobering.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Pat:
I completely understand where Tim is coming from, though from the selfish standpoint of a late 1930's modeler I'm very glad to hear that the era is fixed. But... I wouldn't give up on passenger equipment so easily. How many of us want crude passenger equipment sitting next to our painstakingly detailed freight car models and locomotives? Yes, devoting an entire issue to passenger equipment may not prove to be a winning combination (#11 is a great issue, though the focus limits its appeal), but look at issue RP Cyc #2. The photos and other detailing information about the Pullmans is some of the best reference material ever done for the heavyweight-era modeler (with or without the new Branchline kits at their disposal). Plus there is great freight car material in that issue.

My suggestions would be not to compromise on the rigor or breadth of the material. Keep it in depth, but if necessary, spread a large piece across multiple issues to avoid compromising the overall appeal of any given issue to your customers. A couple of other areas that might warrant a serious look include signaling and equipment servicing infrastructure. (I appreciated the scales/weighing freight cars info in #12) A lot of components and even structures were somewhat standardized, and their design and operating practices/characteristics had relevance for nearly all roads. Think about coaling facilities, sanding towers, water towers, water columns, semaphores/other signals, relay cases, etc., etc. Much of the information in the hobby press has supplied sketchy info and yielded crude replicas that fall far short of the standards that most in this forum would accept for their layout, module or diorama. Who wants an HO water tank or semaphore that looks like it came off some trainset bozo's Lionel layout? You might as well hang a couple of of the big green army men on it for good measure. Freight cars should remain a focus, but they are just one part of the frontier.

Those are my thoughts. Thanks for entertaining them.

Kind regards, Rob


Patrick Wider wrote:

--
Rob Adams
Wellman, IA
steamera@...
Modeling CB&Q, CRI&P and Wabash operations in Keokuk, IA,
the Wabash Bluffs, IL to Keokuk branch, and the CB&Q's Keokuk & Western branch, circa 1938
<http://www.KeokukandWesternRR.com>

Tim opines "The problem with RMC is that Bill uses a poor quality paper that
does not age well... My 25 year old Mainline Modelers are as crisp
as when they were brand new, but I can't say the same for RMC"

That ain't Bill, that's "the Colonel"............which is why we are lucky
to have Bill as editor!

Joe Binish

Guys,
I have enjoyed the discussions the last few days
concerning "magazines, books, and what-not".
I have gotten (back) into model railroading just within the last 5
years or so, having started my first layout. Due to groups like
this one plus Tony's freight car books, RPC, etc, I have acquired an
appreciation of this part of the hobby that I wouldn't have thought
I would ever care that much about. I have always wanted to be as
prototypical as possible but not to the degree I now have. Yes, I
still have several Ulrich GS gons, an Ambroid Stock car and a few
other kits from the 50's that I still run but I also have a stack of
Westerfield (too many) and F&C kits yet to be built. However, I
also build a lot of stand-in cars just to have operations with the
intention of replacing them as time and availabilty of specific kits
permit.
One thing I wish the manufacturers would do is to indicate on their
boxes the time period that particular car existed...time built until
approximate disappearance. ( 1919-1955 or whatever). Branchline is
the only one I know of that does this to any degree. It would sure
help those of us who aren't as up on specifics as others. It would
make my time looking and wondering about a specific new kit at the
hobby shop a lot shorter. :>)
Keep the info coming....I'm trying to catch up as quick as possible.

Charles Etheredge
Modeling the T&NO in the 40's

Tim,
Point well taken. Never having been a member of a large permanent club layout, I hadn't though of that. Sounds like a good reason NOT to belong to a situation like that.
cheers
Rich

On Dec 22, 2005, at 4:31 PM, armand premo wrote:

Hmmn,I thought Mae West said that < G > Armand Premo
----

NO she said "come up and see me some time".
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

Hmmn,I thought Mae West said that < G > Armand Premo

Tony Thompson wrote:

(quote) Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Titles can be misleading � MR, for example, might be better titled "Toy
Trains Illustrated" . . .

Oh, Richard, so harsh . . . I once heard the suggestion that MR
retitle itself, "Modeling you probably already know," and then of
course subtitled "with tiny fragments of prototype information too."
They HAVE gotten better over the years, but slowly, slowly . . .
and I share the opinion already expressed in this thread, that recent
issues have been backsliding on that axis.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history (end quote)

I might offer, tongue firmly in cheek:

http://therailwire.net/smf/index.php?topic=6923.0

http://therailwire.net/smf/index.php?topic=5829.0

Who says N scalers don't have a sense of humor?

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast

Actually, it's Model Retailer Monthly

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson >

Titles can be misleading – MR, for example, might be better

titled "Toy

Trains Illustrated" – but it's worth noting the RMC's full moniker

is

Railroad Model CRAFTSMAN, a fact of which Bill Schaumburg is

perfectly

aware.

Richard Hendrickson

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:

Oh, and I'd like RP Cyc to be free. Thanks.

No problem, there will just be a $24.95 "handling fee."

Pat Wider

In a message dated 12/22/05 6:02:23 PM, jimbetz@... writes:

Ah yes, the lowly crummy ... not a revenue car

some did haul LCL freight.

eric

Ed Mines wrote:

" In the far distant past (1950s) MR used to give printed cars sides similar to Champ and Red Ball slides.

I don't think this would be such a bad idea for N scale.

Ed" (end quote)

Ed, I can assure you that N scale has long progressed beyond that stage. Now, I HAVE used photographs of freight cars, both actual and models in larger scales, to create decals of logos and lettering on my printer for application to actual N scale models.

We actually do put things like ladders, grab irons and brake rigging on our cars in N scale, too! I'll have some at Prototype Rails in two weeks. <vbg>

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast