Date   

Re: ammonia cars

Tony Thompson
 

Scott Chatfield wrote:
Not so fast, Tony. From the late '50s into the early '70s a number of pressure tanks were built without themal jacketing, since it was felt the carbody was more than strong enough to resist the relatively minor change in pressure caused by ambient temperatures (compared to the starting pressure, which for anhydrous ammonia is about 10 atmospheres, if memory serves). What they didn't consider was how much the pressure would rise if the tank body was exposed to direct flame. This caused several catastrophic failures with loss of life and lots of media attention. In the late '70s a program was instituted to add jacketing and other safety features to large pressure tanks.
This is all true, Scott, though off the end of this list's time period. During most or nearly all of the time covered on this list, I will stand by my statement.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: UTC Type Vs lasted how long?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 1, 2005, at 10:31 PM, blindog@... wrote:

How long did the frameless Type Vs last in revenue service? I'd gotten the impression they'd been retrofitted with frames or assigned to the Rio Grande's narrow gauge lines. Hmmmmm
The narrow gauge Type Vs were converted from standard gauge in the 1930s and may have lasted through the 1950s with KD brakes, as they never went off-line in interchange. The standard gauge Type Vs were apparently retired in the early 1950s owing to the difficulty of converting them to AB air brakes before the 8/53 deadline for ABs in interchange. I have never found a photo of a Type V taken after ca. 1951, or of a Type V with AB brakes.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Naperville Photos

dh30973 <76523.1060@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "rockroll50401" <cepropst@n...> wrote:

PS any spelling corrections appreciated
Dave Hussey
It's Propst not Probst, that's the guy who can't be voted off the
island.

Thanks for posting the photos,
Clark
Captions fixed. I was guessing they were yours since there was no name.

Dave


Re: Wheels

Rick <oscaletrains@...>
 

What's that old saying, rules were meant to be broken or something
like that? Railroads can often be arrogant enough to do whatever
they happen to want to do, or what is expedient at the time,
regardless of said rules. It just takes someone high enough up the
totem pole to make it so sometimes.

In an instance quite the opposite of the one you posted, I recall
when the rebuilt NKP Berk ran through Central Illinois in the 1980s
and was stranded, forced to replace "obsolete" 33" Armco wheels
under her tender before proceding. I remember it because I and a co-
worker replaced those wheels with 33" multi wear Griffin ones. Just
wish we had had a camera handy to record it back then.


--- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@m...> wrote:
The FGE wood reefer that is such a prominent exhibit in the Great
Hall of the California State Railroad Museum arrived at the
museum
c. 1975 in Sacramento from Tacoma Ice & Storage (WA) on the same
iron wheels that it had when it was taken out of service many,
many
years previous. It could not be handled in "interchange", but yet
the BN agreed to haul it to Bieber, CA (Inside Gateway) behind the
caboose, and the WP simply looked the other way until it arrived
in
Sacramento. It was further interchanged with both the Central
California Traction Company, and the SP (several times) before it
went on to permanent exhibition in 1981.

If I understand the rules correctly, does not the rule simply
state
that a railroad does not have to accept on interchange certain
equipment, not that it is absolutely forbidden to do so?

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: GN 15000-15549 Boxcars

Tim O'Connor
 

Larry

A partial Jim Sands photo of GN #15400 confirms the Viking roof as well
as the original National Type B trucks found on ERIE 78500-78999.

In a collection of photos taken at the recent Naperville prototype modelers
meeting is this photo of Steffan Ehnbom's fine model...

http://www.pbase.com/dh30973/image/51606809

The roof on this model surprised me, as I've read that GN boxcars in the
15000-15549 series had roofs with rectangular panels and these roofs were
painted (or covered with car cement) black. Are these published sources
incorrect and if so, what would be the correct roof reference/name?

As background, these cars were originally Erie-Lackawanna 78500 to 78999 and
79000 to 79199.

Thanks,
Larry Rice
Port Townsend WA


Re: Equipment registers

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Garth,

The requirements of the ORER only applied to cars that were in interchange service on which either Per Diem in the case of railroad cars, or mileage on the case of private cars, was paid. So, a railroad could accept a car not in the ORER in interchange and then refuse to pay for its use. A strong incentive to make sure interchangeable cars were listed.

Perhaps I was not clear in my meaning about "no errors". As I said in a later post, according to the ICC, if a tariff and the facts differed, the tariff took precedence over the facts. So, if a car was not listed, according to the ICC it did not exist, therefore a "foreign road" did not have to pay for its use while in its lines.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth Groff" <ggg9y@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Equipment registers


Gregg,

Thanks for your information on the mechanics of the ORERs. But what
clout did the Commission have over prompt reporting of changes? By that
I mean, was there any penalty if railroad managers simply failed to
report equipment changes during the required submission period? Would
another railroad reject interchange of such new cars that were not yet
reported?

You say that there could be NO errors. That works well in theory, but as
many students of railroad history could tell you, there are many
examples of whole classes of cars missing from the ORERs which have been
recorded in published photos. Example: D&RGW leased a whole mess of 40'
PS-1s lettered in their own road name (possibly beyond the scope of this
group, sorry), but which supposedly were not recorded in the ORERs.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

Allen, Garth, and list,

Since I furnished entries to the ORER for 18 years, let me explain how it
worked. First, for many years, it was a Tariff filed with the ICC, and as
such required 30 days' notice from time of receipt at the ICC to effective
date. It was issued quarterly, on January 15, April 15, July 15, and October
15, so it had to be in the hands of the Commission by December 15, March 15,
June 15, and September 15. Since it took a month to set up the galleys and
proofread it (as a tariff it could contain NO errors), the information had
to be in the hands of the Tariff Publishing Agent at 15 W. 32nd Street, New
York 1, New York, before November 15, February 15, May 15, and August 15. So
basically, railroads and private car owners had about two or three weeks
from the effective date of an issue to get the changes for the next to the
publisher-agent.

Since this list is limited to discussions of pre-1960 cars, I won't go into
the changes wrought by computers, UMLER, the demise of the ICC and that
ugly, ugly, word, deprescription.

Gregg Mahlkov





Yahoo! Groups Links








Re: Car Builder Cyclopedias

Larry Kline
 

Eric Hiser wrote:
I am most interested in the 1910 through 1930 time frame.

The 1922 Car Builder Cyclopedia is available on CD from Rail Driver at:
http://www.raildriver.com/rdcyclopedias/22carbuild.php
I have the CD and am happy with it. There are links in the table of
contents and index that facilitate navigation through the Cyc.

(The 1922 Cyc on CD is also listed on the nice web site that Bob Webber
posted
http://www.ironhorse129.com/rollingstock/builders/bibliog-bldrs.htm )

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Re: Equipment registers

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Gregg,

Thanks for your information on the mechanics of the ORERs. But what clout did the Commission have over prompt reporting of changes? By that I mean, was there any penalty if railroad managers simply failed to report equipment changes during the required submission period? Would another railroad reject interchange of such new cars that were not yet reported?

You say that there could be NO errors. That works well in theory, but as many students of railroad history could tell you, there are many examples of whole classes of cars missing from the ORERs which have been recorded in published photos. Example: D&RGW leased a whole mess of 40' PS-1s lettered in their own road name (possibly beyond the scope of this group, sorry), but which supposedly were not recorded in the ORERs.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

Allen, Garth, and list,

Since I furnished entries to the ORER for 18 years, let me explain how it worked. First, for many years, it was a Tariff filed with the ICC, and as such required 30 days' notice from time of receipt at the ICC to effective date. It was issued quarterly, on January 15, April 15, July 15, and October 15, so it had to be in the hands of the Commission by December 15, March 15, June 15, and September 15. Since it took a month to set up the galleys and proofread it (as a tariff it could contain NO errors), the information had to be in the hands of the Tariff Publishing Agent at 15 W. 32nd Street, New York 1, New York, before November 15, February 15, May 15, and August 15. So basically, railroads and private car owners had about two or three weeks from the effective date of an issue to get the changes for the next to the publisher-agent.

Since this list is limited to discussions of pre-1960 cars, I won't go into the changes wrought by computers, UMLER, the demise of the ICC and that ugly, ugly, word, deprescription.

Gregg Mahlkov


Re: Wheels

Guy Wilber
 

Pat writes:

<< On January 1, 1952, cast iron single-plate nonbracketed (without ribs)
wheels were prohibited from interchange. >>

The prohibition was extended to January 1, 1953 as of July of 1951. I
haven't had a chance to dig further, but I suspect there may be even further
extensions. Once I tally the entire story I will report back.

This is a classic case of the AAR Interchange Rules having been extended
without subsequent follow up on the author(s)' part.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Earthquake Faults, Nevada


Re: GATX Type X cars?

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Nov 2, 2005, at 1:22 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

GATX 3176 is an ARA III (as stencilled.) It has KC brakes (one piece.) The running boards attach to the bolsters and some relatively light framing diagonally up from the center sill. This underframe is common for many GATX tank cars built from the 20's on. The Athearn tank car frame is a (very) crude rendition of this underframe.
Regards,
Steve Hile
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Kirkham
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 11:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] GATX Type X cars?


This is a link to a very nice on line photo showing the end of GATX 3176 and
part of the side of UTLX 55136.
http://216.94.16.48/people/index_choice.cfm?id=129&photoid=400748160 . The
photo was taken along the Central Vermont in the Second World War.
The GATX car shown is not a Type 30 (which the Athearn crudely represents). It is one of the WWI era GATC products. Note the radial courses with rivets running around the circumference of the tank. Also note the double sill steps common on GATC cars. While it is hard to tell, it looks like it was built in June 1919, which would jibe with the details of the tank. These cars were offered in brass by Overland in HO.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Wheels

Guy Wilber
 

oscaletrains@... writes:

<< Ok...1928 AAR Wheel and Axle Manual>>

1928 ARA Wheel and Axle Manual

<<I'd still like to get ahold of a Section G manual to see if it sheds any
light on it. >>

An early Section G from the ARA/AAR Manual might have some information though
most of the information within subsequent volumes is little more than that
contained within the Wheel and Axle Manual. The Manual is a loose leaf book of
nearly 1200 pages (depending on era) and most sections were edited down
throughout time.

The most comprehensive information on early wheel specs was published by the
ARA's Wheel and Axle Committee (1928). There are nearly two hundred pages of
information and specifications (within) from which the 1928 Wheel and Axle
Manual was formulated. The Wheel and Axle Manual was modified throughout its
history by use of supplements. It was never completely revamped and published
until the latter part of the 1950s, I believe 1958, by which time cast iron
wheels were nearly a non factor as applied to freight equipment.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Earthquake Faults, Nevada


Re: Wheels

Guy Wilber
 

Pat writes:

<<On January 1, 1952, cast iron single-plate nonbracketed (without ribs)
wheels were prohibited from interchange.>>

This rule prohibited (in interchange) the use of 700 and 750 lb. single
plate, non-bracketed cast iron wheels cast on and after January 1, 1938. Prior to
that date, 600 and 750 lb. single plate, non-backeted, cast iron wheels cast
before January 1, 1938 were prohibited (in interchange) effective January 1,
1950.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Earthquake Faults, Nevada


UTC Type Vs lasted how long?

D. Scott Chatfield
 

http://216.94.16.48/people/index_choice.cfm?id=129&photoid=400748160

> The UTLX car looks like a frameless Van Dyke Class V car.


How long did the frameless Type Vs last in revenue service? I'd gotten the impression they'd been retrofitted with frames or assigned to the Rio Grande's narrow gauge lines. Hmmmmm

Scott C


Re: GATX Type X cars?

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Sorry, Rob. Yes, UTLX 55136 is a V car. Note the lack of a center sill under the tank. Its brakes may well be KD attached to the tank. The running boards are also attached to the tank. GATX 3176 is an ARA III (as stencilled.) It has KC brakes (one piece.) The running boards attach to the bolsters and some relatively light framing diagonally up from the center sill. This underframe is common for many GATX tank cars built from the 20's on. The Athearn tank car frame is a (very) crude rendition of this underframe.

Nice photos! Thanks for pointing them out.

Regards,
Steve Hile

----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Kirkham
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 11:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] GATX Type X cars?


This is a link to a very nice on line photo showing the end of GATX 3176 and
part of the side of UTLX 55136.
http://216.94.16.48/people/index_choice.cfm?id=129&photoid=400748160 . The
photo was taken along the Central Vermont in the Second World War.

The GATX car looks - to my uneducated eyes, like a UTL Type X car. Is that
a misinformed statement? The GATX car still has a KD brake. My guess from
attempting to read the stencil is that its leased to Proctor & Gamble. Its
a radial course tank of 8043 gallons.

The UTLX car looks like a frameless Van Dyke Class V car. The UTLX car is
one of the three radial course variety, like the Precision Scale kit.

Both cars are also shown in another different photo at
http://216.94.16.48/people/index_choice.cfm?id=129&photoid=-1011884325.

Rob Kirkham




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Re: ammonia cars

D. Scott Chatfield
 

TT wrote:

Even for cargoes not loaded under great pressure, the ICC rules
make clear that insulation is required to prevent excessive pressure
fluctuations as temperature rises or falls.

Not so fast, Tony. From the late '50s into the early '70s a number of pressure tanks were built without themal jacketing, since it was felt the carbody was more than strong enough to resist the relatively minor change in pressure caused by ambient temperatures (compared to the starting pressure, which for anhydrous ammonia is about 10 atmospheres, if memory serves). What they didn't consider was how much the pressure would rise if the tank body was exposed to direct flame. This caused several catastrophic failures with loss of life and lots of media attention. In the late '70s a program was instituted to add jacketing and other safety features to large pressure tanks.

The the poster was talking about the late '50s, it could be some of those non-jacketed pressure tanks that he saw loaded. I don't recall any cases of pressure tanks loaded with anhydrous ammonia failing from flame impingement, but since the same cars are used to haul propane, they all had to be refitted.

Scott C


GATX Type X cars?

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

This is a link to a very nice on line photo showing the end of GATX 3176 and part of the side of UTLX 55136. http://216.94.16.48/people/index_choice.cfm?id=129&photoid=400748160 . The photo was taken along the Central Vermont in the Second World War.

The GATX car looks - to my uneducated eyes, like a UTL Type X car. Is that a misinformed statement? The GATX car still has a KD brake. My guess from attempting to read the stencil is that its leased to Proctor & Gamble. Its a radial course tank of 8043 gallons.

The UTLX car looks like a frameless Van Dyke Class V car. The UTLX car is one of the three radial course variety, like the Precision Scale kit.

Both cars are also shown in another different photo at http://216.94.16.48/people/index_choice.cfm?id=129&photoid=-1011884325.

Rob Kirkham


Re: 1943 AAR loading rules for open top equipment

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 26, 2005, at 8:32 AM, twinstarcars wrote:

Help! New guy to the list wondering how to get a copy of this.

Ross Dando
Ross, I may have an extra copy or two, but I won't know until mid-November when I come back from a trip out of the country. If so, I'll let you know at that time.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: GN 15000-15549 - Viking Roof

bnpmodeler <bnchmark@...>
 

And Ron;

Thanks to you too; I ought to have known that the Viking roof was a
clue as to the ex-Erie heritage. I believe you are quite correct
that the DL & W did not have any cars with such a roof.

Jim Harr



--- In STMFC@..., "dphobbies" <dphobbies@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Lorraine Kirsch & Larry Rice
<lrice@o...>
wrote:
If so, from where might I find Viking corrugated roofs that will
fit
the Red
Caboose HO scale kit RC-8500?
Larry Rice
I can probably answer the Viking Roof part. We(Des Plaines Hobbies)
offer an injection molded styrene Viking roof to specifically fit
the
Red Caboose (formerly IMWX) AAR boxcar.

Also for Intermountain users of the same car, we had the A mold
retooled to offer a version specifically for the IMR car with
seperate
ends. Your choice.

Now to the GN ex EL, probably ex Erie boxcars. If they came from
EL
with Viking roofs, they were probably ex Erie cars as I am not
aware of
DL&W having any Viking roof cars. It was my understanding
(perhaps
wrong)that the surviving Erie Viking roofed cars were reroofed.

I guess we need the GN/Erie freight car expert to weigh in on this.

Ron Sebastian
Des Plaines (sometimes) Hobbies


Re: Railshops Carbon Black Hopper

Jim and Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

This looks like the same car that Funaro and Camerlengo has produced for
years.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon


Re: GN 15000-15549 Boxcars

bnpmodeler <bnchmark@...>
 

Larry;

Thanks so much! I suspected that they may have been single-door cars
originally, but did not get as deep into the research that you
obviously did. I am in your debt, and will say thanks again. Much
appreciated.

Jim Harr



--- In STMFC@..., Lorraine Kirsch & Larry Rice
<lrice@o...> wrote:


Jim,

Erie diagram book at...

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie-frt-book.html

The cars were built in 1940 with single doors, leased by GN in
1963 as
rebuilt double door cars via A. A. Morrison.

Specific Erie diagrams...

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie-frt-9-13.gif
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie-frt-9-14.gif

Builders photos...

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie78500adb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie79000adb.jpg

Larry Rice
Port Townsend WA