Richard Townsend

The obvious next question is which end is the B end. To identify the B end, you stand facing the left side of the car. The B end will be on your right.

--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

ljack70117@... wrote:

You stand and face the B end of the car. The side to your right is Ã¯Â¿Â½
the Right side and to your left is the left side. Also the journals Ã¯Â¿Â½
number from the B end of the car R1 R2 R3 R4 and L1 L2 L3 L4 on a 4 Ã¯Â¿Â½
axle car. If you have more axles you add more numbers
On Oct 3, 2005, at 8:35 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Richard Hendrickson writes:

Armand, whether there were ladders on both sides of tank cars Ã¯Â¿Â½
depended,
of course, on whether there were dome walkways or platforms on both
sides, as there was no point in having a ladder that didn't go
anywhere.
For the benefit of some members perhaps not as enlightened as me Ã¯Â¿Â½
<g>...how
does one determine the right side from the left?

Mike Brock

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Re: Left and right sides of a car...

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Jack Burgess wrote:
Tony Thompson wrote:
As with any freight car, Mike, stand at the B end and look
toward the car. The left side is on your left.

while.....
Larry Jackman wrote:
You stand and face the B end of the car. The side to your right is
the Right side and to your left is the left side.

You can see why people get confused....<g>
Larry's and my statement sure look alike to me. But there is a potential problem with Larry's: you have to stand AT the B end, facing the B end. Otherwise I guess you could "stand and face the B end" from the side.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Covered Hoppers/Grain

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Jim Brewer wrote:
Is it true that covered hoppers were not used to haul grain prior to 1960? I realize that grain was hauled in boxcars for many years, but thought the larger capacity covered hoppers developed in the 50's were intened, at least in part, to haul grain.
I think the 1960 date is a trifle late, but not much. Practically all those hundreds of 2000-cubic-foot cars built through the 50s were for cement and comparable loads. At the end of the 50s true grain cars did begin to appear, but 1960 is not, to my mind, very late. Perhaps someone has more specifics.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Left and right sides of a car...

Jack Burgess <jack@...>

Tony Thompson wrote:

As with any freight car, Mike, stand at the B end and look
toward the car. The left side is on your left.

while.....

Larry Jackman wrote:

You stand and face the B end of the car. The side to your right is
the Right side and to your left is the left side.

You can see why people get confused....<g>

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

ljack70117@...

You stand and face the B end of the car. The side to your right is the Right side and to your left is the left side. Also the journals number from the B end of the car R1 R2 R3 R4 and L1 L2 L3 L4 on a 4 axle car. If you have more axles you add more numbers
On Oct 3, 2005, at 8:35 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Richard Hendrickson writes:

Armand, whether there were ladders on both sides of tank cars depended,
of course, on whether there were dome walkways or platforms on both
sides, as there was no point in having a ladder that didn't go
anywhere.
Tell that to that lady in San Jose who built that crazy house with doors
that opened to a solid wall, stairs to nowhere and hidden rooms. Of
course...she did live in California.

Tank car builders provided one walkway and one ladder as

standard (almost always on the left side). Right side walkways and
For the benefit of some members perhaps not as enlightened as me <g>...how
does one determine the right side from the left?

Mike Brock

~-->
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/9MtolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------
~->

Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
I wish the buck stopped here as I could use a few

Tim O'Connor

For the benefit of some members perhaps not as enlightened as me <g>...how
does one determine the right side from the left?
Mike Brock
Mike,

When you stand and face the brake wheel (end of the car), the side
to your left is the left side, and other side is the right side. If
a car has a brake wheel on the side, on or both ends, then there are
usually stencils designating the A-end and B-end. This is important
in orienting a car for unloading, for example. (Rarely modeled -- a
car that must be wyed or turned on a table, to orient it correctly.)

Tim O'Connor

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Mike Brock wrote:
For the benefit of some members perhaps not as enlightened as me <g>...how
does one determine the right side from the left?
As with any freight car, Mike, stand at the B end and look toward the car. The left side is on your left.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Covered Hoppers/Grain

James F. Brewer <jfbrewer@...>

In one of the articles, "Freight Equipment and Operations" by Robert S. McGonigal, there is a statement, on page 43 to the effect that covered hoppers weren't adopted for grain hauling until the 1960s.

Is it true that covered hoppers were not used to haul grain prior to 1960? I realize that grain was hauled in boxcars for many years, but thought the larger capacity covered hoppers developed in the 50's were intened, at least in part, to haul grain.

Thanks.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

Re: ARA 1934 Open Loads Publication

Richard Hendrickson

Back in mid-September, I mentioned on the list that I had a January 1, 1934 American Railway Association publication, "Rules Governing the Loading of Commodities on Open Top Cars," and several list subscribers expressed interest in obtaining a copy of it. I have now made inquiries about having the book copied (the copies would include 150 original pages at two pages per sheet of 8-1/2" X 11" paper). If ten people are willing to pay for copies, the price would be about \$15 for each copy including postage; fewer copies would cost more per copy, more copies would cost less. If you will commit to buying a copy, please contact me off-list. I'll add up the number of people who want to participate and will inform you whether this project will go forward, and what the exact price would be, by the end of this week.

Richard Hendrickson

Mike Brock <brockm@...>

Richard Hendrickson writes:

Armand, whether there were ladders on both sides of tank cars depended,
of course, on whether there were dome walkways or platforms on both
sides, as there was no point in having a ladder that didn't go
anywhere.
Tell that to that lady in San Jose who built that crazy house with doors that opened to a solid wall, stairs to nowhere and hidden rooms. Of course...she did live in California.

Tank car builders provided one walkway and one ladder as
standard (almost always on the left side). Right side walkways and
For the benefit of some members perhaps not as enlightened as me <g>...how does one determine the right side from the left?

Mike Brock

Re: NKP Car Movements

Bill Darnaby

Greg,

I think that you are correct. I have seen notation on some of the other sheets that indicated that the waybill originated elsewhere. For example, I have seen "xCyclone, Ind"...an elevator on the Monon sending raw beans to Swift...and "CIL waybill" under the car number.

Bill Darnaby

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NKP Car Movements

Bill and list,

I can't help but wonder if the reason for the reference to the inbound
origin of the beans is for transit billing. It was quite common in the steam
era for railroads to permit "milling in transit", where the total freight
paid was for a single shipment from origin to destination rather than a
combination of origin to milling point and milling point to destination.

The note told the NKP agent to match the shipment with an inbound waybill
and prepare a transit waybill outbound referring that inbound waybill.

I'm sure Swift made use of this provision in the tariffs.

Gregg Mahlkov

Richard Hendrickson

On Oct 3, 2005, at 12:04 PM, armand wrote:

Ladders,I have seen photos of tank cars with ladders on only one
one car builder?.How can one be sure to be correct by mounting the ladder
on only one side?Armand Premo
Armand, whether there were ladders on both sides of tank cars depended, of course, on whether there were dome walkways or platforms on both sides, as there was no point in having a ladder that didn't go anywhere. Tank car builders provided one walkway and one ladder as standard (almost always on the left side). Right side walkways and ladders were optional; some buyers specified them, others not. By the 1930s, most tank cars had them on both sides, but the SP ordered 8K gal. oil cars from GATC as late as 1942 that had walkways and ladders on one side only. Of course, cars with full platforms and railings around the dome, as on many ICC-105 high pressure cars (and some other tank cars as well) had ladders on both sides.

So the short answer is that, for ARA III and IV or ICC 103/104 tank casrs, there's no way to know for sure unless you have (a) a photo showing the side of the car that had no platform/ladder, or (b) photos of both sides of the car. If you have a photo of the right side and it has a platform and ladder, then it's highly likely (but not entirely certain) that there was a platform/ladder on the left side as well.

Richard Hendrickson

Re: NKP Car Movements

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>

Bill and list,

I can't help but wonder if the reason for the reference to the inbound origin of the beans is for transit billing. It was quite common in the steam era for railroads to permit "milling in transit", where the total freight paid was for a single shipment from origin to destination rather than a combination of origin to milling point and milling point to destination.

The note told the NKP agent to match the shipment with an inbound waybill and prepare a transit waybill outbound referring that inbound waybill.

I'm sure Swift made use of this provision in the tariffs.

Gregg Mahlkov

Mea culpa

Andy Carlson

Group,
I was not paying attention in my reply to Tim
O'Connor. My apologies.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Re: Naperville hotel

Andy Carlson

Tim
If you would like to share a room 3 ways with Staffan
Ehnbon and me, we could get a cot and each one of us
taking one night in the cot-that seems to be most
fair.
-Andy Carlson

--- Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Anyone want to share a room at Naperville? They've
run out
of discount rooms and so I'll have to share or find
another
place to stay... Thanks. I will be in town Oct
26-Oct 30.

Tim O'Connor
978-422-2328

--------------------~-->
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--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Ebay listings

Rob Sarberenyi <espeef5@...>

I've added a few more listings this week... more brass and other items coming next week. You'll find a few vintage freight car kits, even a couple manufacturers I'd never heard of
http://stores.ebay.com/Espee-F-5

Please be patient with questions about items. I'm heading out of town, will reply best as possible. I'll return home late Friday evening.

Thanks!

Rob Sarberenyi
espeef5@...

armprem

Ladders,I have seen photos of tank cars with ladders on only one
one car builder?.How can one be sure to be correct by mounting the ladder
on only one side?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: <timboconnor@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ladders with attached stirrups

Denny

Intermountain sells PS-1 style ladders with an inset stirrup.
an in-line stirrup for 10'0" box cars.

The questions are, how many rungs do you need, what is
the height of the ladders you need, and how wide are the
rungs? There are many valid permutations...

Tim O.

Does anyone know who manufactures freight car side ladders with the
stirrups attached, if anyone? I seem to recall that these have been
produced in styrene or Delrin, but I cannot yet locate them in any of
the usual haunts.

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/116 - Release Date: 9/30/05

Re: NKP Car Movements

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>

william darnaby wrote:

Ok guys...here it is. I'm a little late because I was out of town.
First, a bit of explaination. This data was hand written on 5x7 note
pad sheets by somebody in the Swift & Co traffic dept and given to the
Frankfort, IND". I tried to use the abbreviations used on the
sheets. Where "VAN" appears it refers to the PRR Vandalia lines with
which the NKP had an interchange at the east end of the yard. These
cars were taken directly to the interchange. The "xtown" indication
refers, I believe, to where the load of raw beans originated. The
beans apparently arrived at Swift in Frankfort in other cars and were
processed into meal and sent on. All of the originating locations
were local elevators, some on the NKP, some not. I guess the local
elevator did not have milling capability and used Swift to sell bean
meal. After I got into these particular lists I noticed that there
many 27000 series NKP cars. During this time the NKP was rebuilding
double sheathed cars into these cars at Frankfort so these loads were
probably the first loads for these cars. The next time I will pick a
different time to avoid this and get more interesting car numbers.
The list is best viewed on the full screen.
Bill,

In your June 1948 list, there were 33 boxcars and 12 tank cars. All 33
boxcars were loaded with meal - what the spit between bulk & bagged is
unclear. 11 of the 12 Tank Cars were loaded with bean oil; the twelfth,
ISTX #701, owned by the Interstate Tank Car Corp. of Portsmouth VA was
an empty being returned to the Capital City Products Co. of Columbus OH
- "XT" usually meant "empty tank" in "wheel report parlance." I assume
City Products was the lessee.

18 of the boxcars were from the NKP #27000 series, six from other NKP
car series and nine foreign: - three from the IC; and one each from the
MILW, PRR, GM&O, CN, MKT and New Haven. In 1948, 16% of the Daily
Average Cars on Line were NKP-owned, so the 73% is a surprise - perhaps
due to the use of the #27000's.

For those who believe that empty foreign boxcars were only loaded and
then routed in the direction back to their home roads would be
disappointed - four were, but five were not.

The destination of all twelve tank cars when compared to the car owner
was interesting. Four of the tanks were SHPX and leased to the EF Drew
Co. of Boonton NJ; another four were leased by GATX to Proctor & Gamble
(GATX having bought P&G's fleet in 1925); two were leased by Lever
Brothers of Edgewater NJ , one NATX #1227 and the other GATX #22191 - I
assume one of the tanks were leased short term and the other long term.
SWTX mark was for the old Swift tank Car Fleet which GATX bought in 1930.

Tim Gilbert

6-2-48 NKP 27736 bean meal VAN-Goodrich Bro,Winchester,IN via PRR

NKP 16779 bean meal VAN-H D Shaw, Cedar Springs, MI
via PRR
xClayton, IN
MILW 70853 bean meal VAN-Urbana Mills, Urbana, OH via PRR
xManson, IN
PRR 104426 bean meal VAN-Buhner Co, Louisville via PRR-B4
xCamden, IN
SHPX 7828 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via
NKP/Buf-DLW

NATX 1227 bean oil Lever Bro, Edgewater, NJ via
NKP/Buf-Erie-NYSW

NKP 27733 bean meal Gen Mills, Toledo, OH, via NKP-TT
xMichigantown, IN
6-3-48 GM&O 8468 bean meal VAN-Wooster Jct Mfg, Wooster, OH
via PRR-B&O
xClayton, IN
NKP 27737 bean meal VAN-Urbana Mills, Urbana, OH via PRR
xManson
NKP 27738 bean meal VAN-Buhner Ferts, Seymour, IN
via PRR-B&O
xFora, IN
SHPX 4021 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via
NKP/Buf-DLW

6-4-48 GATX 21852 bean oil Procter&Gamble, Ivorydale, OH
NKP/Indpls-NYC

NKP 27742 bulk meal Parke-Pollard, Black Rock, NY
NKP-NYC
xKokomo
NKP 27732 bulk meal Parke-Pollard, Black Rock, NY
NKP-NYC
xKokomo

6-7-48 IC 18954 meal VAN-Jackson Cty Farm Bureau
Coop, Seymour, IN PRR-B&O

NKP 27742 bulk meal Parke-Pollard, Black Rock, NY
NKP-NYC
xMichigantown
IC 20295 meal Foster Canning Co, Napoleon,
OH, NKP-DTI
xTab, IN
NKP 13301 meal Acme Evans Co, Indianapolis-NKP

SHPX 8974 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via
NKP/Buf-DLW

6-8-48 NKP 27740 meal VAN-Owasso Coal&Elevator, Owasso MI
PRR-MC
xSummitville, IN stop off Jackson,MI,Mich
Mills, GTW Dely Owasso
NKP 17659 meal Lafayette Co-op Elev, NKP
xAlexandria, IN
NKP 27745 meal Cooperative Mills, Buffalo, BC dely
NKP 27741 meal Blissfield Co-op, Blissfield, MI
NKP-NYC

GATX 16139 bean oil Proctor&Gamble, Portsmouth, VA
NKP/Indpls-B4-N&W

6-9-48 CN 522526 meal VAN-H Van Patten Co, Allen, MI PRR-NYC
xBrazil, IN
MKT 79005 meal VAN-Urbana Mills, Urbana, OH via PRR
xManson
SHPX 20647 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via
NKP/Buf-DLW

NKP 17310 meal Dayette Mills, Cooch, Del, NKP-PRR
NKP 16920 meal United Gr. Co., Rossburg, OH NKP-NYC

6-10-48 IC 33626 meal VAN-Urbana Mills, Urbana, OH via PRR
xFlora, IN
KCS 18257 meal The Glidden Co, Indianapolis NKP

NKP 27752 meal R S Altman, Troy, OH NKP/Lima-B&O

NKP 13370 meal R S Altman, Troy, OH NKP/Lima-B&O

6-11-48 NH 34114 meal The Glidden Co, Indianapolis NKP

SHPX 8932 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via
NKP/Buf-DLW

GATX 22191 bean oil Lever Bro, Edgewater, NJ via
NKP/Buf-Erie-NYSW

NKP 27746 meal P R Markley, Rohrestown, PA NKP-PRR
NKP 27747 meal Elkhart Co Farm Bureau, Goshen,
IN NKP-NYC

6-17-48 NKP 27760 bulk meal VAN-Hubbard Milling, Economy, PA
via PRR
xCamden, IN 12 doors
SWTX 7790 bean oil VAN-Swift&Co Refinery, Port
Newark, NJ via PRR

ISTX 701 XT Capitol City Prod Co,
Columbus, OH NKP-B4

NKP 27765 ??? A K Zinn & Co, Battle Creek, MI
NKP/MichCity-MC

6-22-48 GATX 13668 bean oil Proctor&Gamble, Portsmouth, VA
NKP/Indpls-B4-N&W

GATX 29124 bean oil Proctor&Gamble, Portsmouth,
VA NKP/Indpls-B4-N&W

NKP 27769 bulk meal Hidden ? Mills, Indianapolis NKP

NKP 27772 bulk meal Hidden ? Mills, Indianapolis NKP

NKP 27771 bulk meal Co-op Gr ? Mills, Buffalo, via
NKP-BC dely

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Chet French <cfrench@...>

--- In STMFC@..., "Ray Breyer" <rbreyer@c...> wrote:
Did the Illinois Central operate any 40' quad hoppers during the
steam
era? If so, what were their numbers, capacities, date of introduction
etc?

Yep; lots of them. I have the following data on IC triples:

Diagram, 80000-80299 series cars, built 1927.
Diagram, 81000-81744 series cars, built 1929.
Diagram, 81734-81739 series cars, built 1930 (actually quad hoppers)
Diagram, 81790-81799 series cars, built 1947 (originally Peabody Coal,
bought by IC in 1957)
Builder's photo, 212799, new 11-27
In service photo, 82351, built 5-33
1950 ORER listing, 75000-78959, 80000-80298 and 81000-81744 series
cars, all
41' IL. <snip>
Richard/Ray;

I have found no evidence that the IC owned quad hoppers during the
steam period, only triple hoppers as stated. The Jan. 1946 IC
equipment book makes no mention of quad hoppers. I'm not sure what the
81734-81739 series car are, as they fall in the 81000-81744 series
which were all triple hoppers. The 75000-78959 series 41' IL cars are
actually twin hoppers converted from 1945-1947 from the 90000-93970
series gondolas built in 1923.

Chet French
Dixon, IL