Phil,

I think the photographs in my collection set the scene for a 1950s
time frame pretty clearly and show an 85/15 ratio for 'black
background heralds' to 'white-line-only heralds' on boxcars. I think
the red/white to white line herald ratio was closer to 30/70 on
hoppers and gondolas (with the KGB 400-series being all red/white),
but not boxcars.

I have never seen a color photograph of a boxcar with the
red/white/black herald, only hoppers and gondolas.

Here is the data I've collected:

White line only herald (no black background)/reweigh date:
GBW 8150 6-67
KGB 5506 10-62
KGB 5538 7-69

Black background herald:
GBW 6056 7-65
GBW 6062 1-52
GBW 6120 5-52
GBW 6144 3-62
GBW 6156 7-60
GBW 8042 9-54
GBW 8100 5-66
GBW 8102 3-60
GBW 8142 ?
GBW 8172 7-60
GBW 8176 7-65
GBW 14018 ?
GBW 15030 4-58
GBW 15056 ?
KGB 5028 ?
KGB 5514 ?
KGB 5518 10-56
KGB 5524 9-55

The GB&W lettering under the ladders on the right side of the car
was absolutely the rule on GBW and KGB wood outside braced boxcars.
I've never seen otherwise.

Andy Laurent

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:

GBW #8020 is in the collection at North Freedom. This past
summer, you really couldn't see any herald on the doors, at least
enough to tell what color the heralds were. I was hoping to

confirm

what a late paint job would have used. (It doesn't appear that the
car was repainted since it arrived at the museum.) Sounds like

black

or red would be a coin toss for a mid-'50s era model. (?) If I

used

the black herald, I'd probably want to weather the model quite a
bit.
Also, it was interesting that there are the remains of the
words "GREEN BAY AND WESTERN" to the right of the door on each

side.

This lettering extends UNDER the ladder grabs. Was this a typical
scheme on wooden GBW cars? This lettering was in addition to the
heralds and the reporting marks.

Regards,
Phil Buchwald

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark Mathu" <mark@m...> wrote:

Was that a red or black rectangle herald on the door?

Mike Aufderheide wrote:

From the 1948 Monon conductor's log I have the

following Canadian cars:

CN B 476658 XB Southbound to Limedale (PRR)
CN B 523832 XB Northbound to Laf. Jct. (NKP WAB NYC)
CN B 528176 CORN Southbound to Louisville
CN ? 464091 ? Southbound to Bloomington
CP B 246493 R WOOL Northbound to S. Hammond (Chicago)
CP ? 180528 RUBBER Northbound to Michigan City (CSSSB
PM NYC)
CP B 247203 PAPER Southbound to Bloomington

Mike,

How many of these cars above can we assume were loaded in Canada, or terminated in Canada? Plus were the two empties being routed towards Canada? With this data, we can probably assume that the paper load of CP Box #247203 came from Canada? The Northbound Rubber Load, I assume was being routed MONON-CSSB-South Bend-PM-Buffalo-NYC which would be in compliance with the "Rule" because of the PM transit through Ontario. The empties I am not concerned with because it was still possible for the cars to be reloaded for Canada.

Tim Gilbert

George from RSC just dropped off a bushel of new paint schemes for his
40 ' double door Milwaukee boxcar. They are kit #4223 billboard
lettering "The Milwaukee Road" and kit #4224 "Route of the Hiawathas"

Also, Jim Singer, 5th Avenue Car Shops has released a custom painted
version of the RSC double door. It is the "Route of the Hiawathas"
scheme and is available in six road numbers.

5th Avenue numbers their cars while RSC gives decals for the numbers.

Either offering is available at any good hobby shop and also here.

Ron Sebastian
Des Plaines Hobbies
1468 Lee Street
Des Plaines, Il 60018
1-847-297-2118 fax: 1-847-297-4976

List,

Does anyone know what happended to Ed Kaminski's website? He had a lot of steam era freight car photos on it. I was planning to refer someone to a colorized photo of a billboard reefer on his website, which I had bookmarked, but it has disappeared. I made N scale decals for my own use from the photo.

Gregg Mahlkov

Hi Andy,

Have you figured out how much you will charge for each of the door sets?

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479

Andy Carlson wrote:

I would like to share a ride to the Holiday Inn at Naperville
from O'hare Airport on Thursday 10/27/05 arriving on American Airlines
from NYC at approx. 11:30AM. Would pay my share of course. Would also
wait for you at airport. Please contact me off list Dave at dlfriedman@
legal-aid.org Any help appreciated.

Tim Gilbert:



I stated the newsprint came in on GTW cars in error. The news print to
Indianapolis was on Canadian cars, CP for sure , possibly CN also.



Mont Switzer

Responding to Tim Gilbert:

I would make the same argument for why there so few boxcars owned by
railroads of the Great Lakes Region (NYC, WAB, ERIE, DL&W, etc.. The CIL

was part of the Central East Region.). This works only if there was an
ample supply of empty boxcars in Frankfort. If this supply was
critically low, then empty boxcars of the Great Lakes Roads and the
MONON would be hoarded. At Frankfort, the supply of empty boxcars were
augmented by cars released from the NKP's Frankfort Car Shops.

I believe the NKP traffic balance was primarily westbound which would
cause the west end of the system to generate empties. Since Frankfort
was a major west end terminal for the NKP it seems that an abundant
supply of empties from all sorts of roads would be available.

Incidentally, MONON #1 was in Frankfort on January 10th, 1948 loaded
with drugs loaded at Bloomfield NJ and routed
ERIE-Lima-NKP-TRRA-SSW-Corsicana-T&NO-El Paso-SP-San Francisco.

Do you think #1 was an accurate summary of freight car activity or
something the RR PR departments tampered with as they saw fit. I know
the MONON did several photos Op's with #1 even if it wasn't there. They
just took a similar car and re-numbered it. We MONON modelers finally
caught on after we modeled the wrong door a few times.

Also, no 1 carried just about all of the paint schemes so it got
repainted more often than most.

Coke and Coal, I assume, were carried in hoppers which had much lower
percent loaded of total car miles than boxcars (55% vs. 76%) which
greatly reduced the opportunities for reloading empties before they were

returned to the mines or ovens; thus, the percent of hoppers on home
road lines of total hoppers on the MONON was greater than for boxcars. I

assume foundry sand was bagged and loaded into boxcars as were the TV
Cabinets. Were some of these commodities terminated on other roads? If
so, I would expect the MONON lost control of the routing of these
boxcars when they were unloaded just as they lost control of CIL #1 once

it was delivered to the L&N in Louisville on June 17th, 1947.

If it was Indiana coal from on line mines I would think most of it ran
in MONON hoppers. Although I don't have specifics I believe during that
period there was a law that state supported institutions had to burn
Indiana coal.

Coke was handled in special cars. In the late 1940's they were
converted composite gons and composite boxcars. Both looked like stock
cars without roofs. Later they went to steel gondolas with open top
lift out containers.

I'm not positive, but I think the sand was shipped in bulk in boxcars.
Later covered hoppers took over.

What happened to boxcars carrying newsprint when they were unloaded?
Were they returned to their owners empty, or were they reloaded with
product, and routed wherever? There were no guarantees that GTW boxcars
would be returned to the GTW once the newsprint was unloaded
particularly in times when there were boxcar shortages. If the GTW
wanted newsprint cars to return, CN cars should be used - assuming that
the newsprint came from Canada.

I'm not sure what happened to the GTW cars when empty in Indianapolis.
Freight to and from Indianapolis not balanced so outbound load
opportunities were not great. Probably the best bet for a load
northbound was grain and then only in season.

Mont Switzer

Jace Kahn wrote:
"Is my mind already starting to go, or has George Elwood's website
deleted views?"

I'm seeing the same thing - only three freight car photos listed.


"I had gotten the idea of converting a Rutland #4000 series woodside
gondola, using an extra 40' flat (from the CDS lettering for the same)
and was sure I had found a nice scan of one on his website several
months back."

Here's a scan from Jim Dufour's website, but it's pretty small:
http://users.rcn.com/jimdu4/Gondola_4008.htm

In HO, this is an easy (and accurate!) conversion from an Athearn
flatcar - see John Nehrich's "Flatcars and Gons for the NEB&W" in the
January 1986 issue of Model Railroader.
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/NEB&W-gon-flat-no-4008-
b&w.jpg


Ben Hom

Did you try www.rr-fallenflags.org ? I just went
there and it worked fine.

Jason

--- Justin Kahn <harumd@...> wrote:

Is my mind already starting to go, or has George
Elwood's website deleted
views? I had gotten the idea of converting a
Rutland #4000 series woodside
gondola, using an extra 40' flat (from the CDS
lettering for the same) and
was sure I had found a nice scan of one on his
website several months back.
I just went to look again (now that I am about to
start construction) and
the Rutland selection is thin, indeed: very little
rolling stock
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

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What I have heard about Terry echoes exactly what Richard states.

The two toolmakers I have heard the most about are Wegmann and Paul
Lubliner, mainly because they are Southwest modelers (where I am from), and
they certainly have my admiration for their abilities and modeling legacy.

Wegmann and Lubliner collaborated on N&G Railway Signal Company, maker of HO
and O gauge scale operating railroad signals back in the '70's. I was going
through school at the time and was spending my dollars on books and tuition
rather than scale signals for a future layout. I lamented this later as the
signals essentially "went off of the market" when the career the books
enabled finally started paying off. So I have been searching for these
"works of art" on ebay and elsewhere for many years.

I know it has been said before, but it worth saying again, these guys are
"perfectionists" in every sense of the word. I had several long discussions
with Lubliner in the late '80's regarding how he learned how to create
tooling for such detailed applications. Most of what he had to say was
peppered with "oh, this is easy and that was simple to do, I can show you in
a few minutes how to do it" with a pantograph and his other tools of the
trade. Manufacturer's drawings, good photographs and a few supporting
dimensions from sketches were all that they needed to create these fine
models, and a lot of time and expertise mixed in. But they enjoyed every
minute, just like we should enjoy our modeling time too.

Like Richard said their thrills were in the research and development of the
tooling and construction of the model prototypes. Paul did a fine job in
photographing their finished work (I have some 2.5M images that I can
forward to those interested) and developing ads in RMC, etc. But when their
inventory and/or public interest in the products dwindled so did their
motivation to continue producing both established and new/different models.
Most know of N&G's searchlight (H-2), lower quadrant Style B and upper
quadrant semaphores, but few know about the "other" signals that were tooled
but never brought to market. Paul developed working ATSF upper quadrant
semaphores and colorlight signals, UP colorlights, etc., but never marketed
them.

Last that I heard was that Paul was not totally satisfied with many aspects
of the signal line and wanted to "retool" most of it. I wonder if he feels
the same way about his landmark F-units (which pulled many a steam era
freight car) in retrospect. From my perspective, I can't see how either
could be improved.

Paul

Paul LaCiura
San Francisco, CA
spdaylight.com

Hey guys,
You know...and everyone else that's read the rules of the group...knows that issues with the US Mail, delivery of any manufacturer's product or producer's books, magazines or other stuff...unless directly related to frt cars is out of scope. Take it off line. Good grief....

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

I hope that drawing in PR CYC is not a steel reefer. It should be the
drawing of the wartime built plywood reefers that is the subject of the
article wherein the drawing appears

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:

There's a drawing of a steel FGE reefer on the last page of the RP

Cyc.

Remember plastic models of those cars? (I think they were from AHM).

The detail was a little coarse (rivets about the same size the one's
on the Athearn 50'gon).

Ed

On Oct 12, 2005, at 12:18 PM, ed_mines wrote:

In the book "Eastern Steam Pictorial" by Bert Pennypacker there's a
photo of Lehigh Valley train with a solid block of what appears to
be identical reefers with no icing platforms or "ribs" on the roof.

Suncoast offered a model of a FGE car with these details in the '70s.

I've seen very few (if any) photos of these flat roofed FGE cars
although the Suncoast instructions indicate that the cars were part
of large series. They also offered similar WFE cars with a roof
similar to the "outside metal" roof on PFE cars.

Did these flat roofs ever show individual boards or were they
covered with something like tar paper?

Were these flat roof cars later rebuilt with a roofer similar to the
Accurail reefer? What's the name of that Accurail roof? That same
type of roof is on the old AHM double sheathed auto box car.

There are some locomotive drawings in the back of "Eastern Steam
Pictorial" from a young draftman named Lawrence Jackman. I've heard
that this is the same Lawrence Jackman who panned for gold in
Alaska, built the transcontinental railroad and made butter in Iowa.

Ed Mines

That is me but the butter was made in Kansas.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
I wish the buck stopped here as I could use a few

Mike:

First, look as when the Monon bought steel boxcars. The second group of
steel cars (1 - 500) was coming on line at about the time of Bill's
data. That second group still made the total less than 1000. The wood
boxcar fleet was in bad shape and it is doubtful they ran far from home
in very large numbers.

I think your conductor logs are from Mr. Query whom I have met long ago.
Take into consideration the trains that he ran on. On the MONON I think
the train assignment would have a lot to do with what cars were seen.
Remember the through freight (I don't recall the number) that did not
handle open top cars?

As far as the dump cars go, I seem to recall Cookie or Ron Marquardt
talking about a steady move of some sort of rubble or stone byproduct
from around the quarries at Monon, IN shipped a couple of cars loads at
a time in dump cars.. I think they ended up on local trains and the
cars were dumped by the local crews as fill along the right of way or at
a construction site. A nice touch from an opertions standpoint. I need
to find my notes on that one.

You are right through, the MONON didn't have a lot of boxcars, but
surely some of them got to Frankfort on the NKP. That was the closest
point to return on the NKP from the east.

Mont Switzer

In the book "Eastern Steam Pictorial" by Bert Pennypacker there's a
photo of Lehigh Valley train with a solid block of what appears to
be identical reefers with no icing platforms or "ribs" on the roof.

Suncoast offered a model of a FGE car with these details in the '70s.

I've seen very few (if any) photos of these flat roofed FGE cars
although the Suncoast instructions indicate that the cars were part
of large series. They also offered similar WFE cars with a roof
similar to the "outside metal" roof on PFE cars.

Did these flat roofs ever show individual boards or were they
covered with something like tar paper?

Were these flat roof cars later rebuilt with a roofer similar to the
Accurail reefer? What's the name of that Accurail roof? That same
type of roof is on the old AHM double sheathed auto box car.

There are some locomotive drawings in the back of "Eastern Steam
Pictorial" from a young draftman named Lawrence Jackman. I've heard
that this is the same Lawrence Jackman who panned for gold in
Alaska, built the transcontinental railroad and made butter in Iowa.

Ed Mines

Tim,

Thanks for the information. I haven't done it, but it
will be interesting to see if the Monon boxcar
percentage in this log matched the national despite
being on the home road.

The log covers the middle division between Lafayette
and Bloomington. The first entry is from 8/21/48 and
the last I have input is 12/9/48. About a third of
the trains are locals, a third through-freights and a
third extras (likely through as well) This covers
about 23 trains and 690 cars. I have about half of
what I copied at the Monon Society put into excel.
Much of what remains are coal trains on the Midland
branch. If this is useful to anyone, I'd be happy to
post it.

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide

--- Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

Mike Aufderheide wrote:

One thing I've noticed about the 1948 Monon
conductor's log I'm going through is the lack of

Monon

boxcars in general. Plenty of gons and hoppers,

but

boxcars are under represented as a proportion of

the

Monon fleet: only 4 cars out of 52. Even Air

Dump

cars show up more often! Maybe this goes to

Tim's

theory on boxcar usage.

Mike,

Not so much theory because, in the 1948 PROCEEDINGS
OF THE AAR'S
SUPERINTENDENTS' CONVENTION which provided January 1
data for percent
home cars on line for both all types and boxcars. On
12/31/1947, there
were 1,999,441 cars owned by Class I RR's and
private car lines or
shippers in the US, but there were only 1,901,963
freight cars on line
in the US according to the ICC's 1947 ANNUAL REPORT
OF STATISTICS OF
RAILWAYS IN THE US. To keep things simple, I will
use the 1,999,443
total in the table below:

Home Foreign
Total % at Home
Total Freight Cars 799,776 1,199,665
1,999,441 40.0% Given
less: Privately Owned Cars - 265,250
265,250 0.0%
RR-Owned Cars 799,776 934,415
1,734,191 46.1%
Calculated
less: Boxcars 142,468 584,414
726,882 19.6% Given
All Other RR Car Types 657,308 350,001
1,007,309 65.3%
Calculated

Because the MONON was a short haul railroad, I
suspect that the
percentage of MONON Boxcars on the home line of
total boxcars on the
Monon was much less than the national 19.6% average.
4 MONON boxcars out
of a total of 52 cars could be extraordinarily high
once hoppers, gons,
MOW cars, etc. were eliminated to determine how many
boxcars there were
in your Conductor's Log - more so if the Log
recorded through freights.

Regarding your 1948 MONON Conductor's Log, can you
advise what
"division" of the MONON it covered? Were they
through or local freights?
Between what month and day did the Log begin and
end?

Thanks, Tim Gilbert



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Is my mind already starting to go, or has George Elwood's website deleted views? I had gotten the idea of converting a Rutland #4000 series woodside gondola, using an extra 40' flat (from the CDS lettering for the same) and was sure I had found a nice scan of one on his website several months back. I just went to look again (now that I am about to start construction) and the Rutland selection is thin, indeed: very little rolling stock
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

GBW #8020 is in the collection at North Freedom. This past
summer, you really couldn't see any herald on the doors, at least
enough to tell what color the heralds were. I was hoping to confirm
what a late paint job would have used. (It doesn't appear that the
car was repainted since it arrived at the museum.) Sounds like black
or red would be a coin toss for a mid-'50s era model. (?) If I used
the black herald, I'd probably want to weather the model quite a
bit.
Also, it was interesting that there are the remains of the
words "GREEN BAY AND WESTERN" to the right of the door on each side.
This lettering extends UNDER the ladder grabs. Was this a typical
scheme on wooden GBW cars? This lettering was in addition to the
heralds and the reporting marks.

Regards,
Phil Buchwald

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark Mathu" <mark@m...> wrote:

Was that a red or black rectangle herald on the door?

That's another issue... it's black & white -- I believe -- based on
the tones of the photo. B&W images with a red herald seem to show

up

lighter in photos.

But I'm open for suggestions!

More importantly, when did each color of herald get used?

Red & white heralds were on steam engines by the 1930s. It seems

that

early (1930s) versions of freight cars had red & white heralds

also.

My guess (based on b&w photos only) is that only the GBW boxcars,

and

black gondolas and hoppers of the late steam period (post- 1935)

had

black & white heralds. Certainly by the time all-steel boxcars

arrived

in 1950 the heralds were red & white.
__________
Mark Mathu
Whitefish Bay, Wis.

Tim Gilbert asked:

What happened to boxcars carrying newsprint when
they were unloaded?
Were they returned to their owners empty, or were
they reloaded with
product, and routed wherever?

Tim,

From the 1948 Monon conductor's log I have the
following Canadian cars:

CN B 476658 XB Southbound to Limedale (PRR)
CN B 523832 XB Northbound to Laf. Jct. (NKP WAB NYC)
CN B 528176 CORN Southbound to Louisville
CN ? 464091 ? Southbound to Bloomington
CP B 246493 R WOOL Northbound to S. Hammond (Chicago)
CP ? 180528 RUBBER Northbound to Michigan City (CSSSB
PM NYC)
CP B 247203 PAPER Southbound to Bloomington

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Mike



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