Date   

Re: O Scale Tankcars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 6, 2005, at 2:20 PM, A. T. Kott wrote:

The 1907-1917 ACF raised running board tank car prototypes have 5
courses along the top 2/3 of the tank, and a single sheet on the
bottom 1/3 of the tank. They were one of the first (if not THE
first) tank cars to have their tanks anchored to the centersill of
the frame in or near the center of the car.

The closest cars we have to the 1907-1917 Type II tank cars are the
Sunset PRR single (somewhat close to an ACF car) and triple (not an
ACF car) 8,000 gallon tank cars imported from Korea in the late
1970's. In fact, they were the first standard gauge "O" scale cars
to be imported from Korea, and Sunset's first freight cars. The ACF
cars were almost all built with raised running boards. The Sunset
models represent a later rebuild, at best, of this prototype.
Much confusion here. The high running board AC&F cars were introduced in 1904 and were therefore designated Type 4s; the last of them were built ca. 1912. These are the cars modeled in HO scale in brass by W&R. In 1911 AC&F moved the running boards and hand rails down to bolster level, without otherwise changing the underframes or tanks, and the cars that resulted were Type 11s, which were produced in large numbers until ca. 1917. They were not rebuilds of the Type 4s. The Sunset models in HO scale represent 8K gal. Type 11s, so I assume that the O scale models represent the same prototypes.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: O Scale Tankcars

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Kahn" <harumd@h...> wrote:
Dear A. J.
I know even less about tankcars than I know about most other
freight rolling
stock, but I assume you are not including the Max Gray raised-
running boards
tanks?
Jace Kahn

Jace - The three MG tank cars (MG #308 single and double dome cars +
MG #309 triple dome car) all have ends typical of an insulated car
with domes typical of a riveted car. I think the prototype was an
insulated asphalt car, but they messed up on the dome flange!

The 1907-1917 ACF raised running board tank car prototypes have 5
courses along the top 2/3 of the tank, and a single sheet on the
bottom 1/3 of the tank. They were one of the first (if not THE
first) tank cars to have their tanks anchored to the centersill of
the frame in or near the center of the car.

The closest cars we have to the 1907-1917 Type II tank cars are the
Sunset PRR single (somewhat close to an ACF car) and triple (not an
ACF car) 8,000 gallon tank cars imported from Korea in the late
1970's. In fact, they were the first standard gauge "O" scale cars
to be imported from Korea, and Sunset's first freight cars. The ACF
cars were almost all built with raised running boards. The Sunset
models represent a later rebuild, at best, of this prototype.

Speaking of MG #308's, do you know the story behind the two
varieties? I have seen both single and double dome versions of this
car. I even spoke with Bill Boren of KTM-USA back in the early
1980's about them, but have never gotten a satisfactory explanation
as to why there were two different models with one stock number.
There are some bogus single dome cars around (someone removed two
domes from an MG #309), but I have seen a couple where there was no
trace of the other domes ever being soldered to the wrapper. It may
be a case like the 12-1 Pullman cars and brass truss bridges at old
Col. John K. Weber's place in MG boxes with MG labels, but never
cataloged or offered for general sale.

A.T.Kott


Re: Name That Truck

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

Ben is right. The listings show the various truck classes with the car classes that used them, but there is no breakdown as to how many of each car class there were for each particular class of truck. If you go through the truck listings, you will find that the car classes overlap the truck classes. It just happens that early on, the 2D-F2 was used on the listings I provided. Using the X29 as an example, you will find that in later years, class 2D-F8 and 2D-F12 (spring and leaf) became prevalent, but by no means exclusive to themselves.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

Tom Olsen wrote:
"I would guess that this is a 2D-F2 50-Ton Capacity Truck, which is an early version Crown truck, with the Cast Steel Andrews sideframe."

After further review, including an off-list discussion with Brian Butcher, I agree.


"The 2D-F2 was used under classes FM, GLa, GLb, GLc, GP, GPa, GR, GRa, GS, GSa, GSc, GSd, GSx, H22, XL, XLa, X23, X24, X25, X25a, X28, X29. All are 50 Ton cars."

One caveat about the truck classification diagrams - they do a great job of listing which car classes got what trucks, but they don't tell you how many cars got which truck. For example, you can't make the assumption that the 50-ton Crown truck was the most common truck used under Class X29 (it wasn't) or Class X25 (it was). As always, when in doubt, model from a prototype photo.

BTW, several PRR truck classification diagrams are available online at
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRFreightCarTrucks.html


Ben Hom





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Re: Name That Truck

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Folks;

Andy, the truck has a distinct, beefy look, and is heavier than many
other Andrews-type trucks because it is, after all, a 70-t truck. It
is, nevertheless, an Andrews-type truck, and also a Crown by virtue of
its manufacture.

The PRR documents on truck application refer to their own designations
like "2E-F2" and the like. That is what the PRR called them.

There is also a column for the manufacturer's name, which in the case of
the 2E-F2 calls out the name "Crown", which is what we model railroaders
have fastened on. They also refer to many other monikers we use to ID a
certain type of truck, like a "Barber S-2", or "ASF Ride Control".

I have also seen a prototype truck with the name CROWN cast into the
sideframe.

If you want anyone to blame, blame me. I am used to it. I keep calling
them Crown trucks because I can't remember all those number/letter
designations!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Andy Miller
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:57 AM
To: STMFC@...; PRR-Talk@...; PRR@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Name That Truck

All right, Richard raises an interesting question. Why the name
change.
Was their a difference between the "Andrews" and the "Crown" truck? The
sideframes appear to have a different shape.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Name That Truck

On May 5, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Bill Lane wrote:

I just got a few builders photos of this PRR truck, assembled and some
without the journal boxes.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_Truck_Side.jpg Can anyone
identify the PRR class for it? It resembles the trucks for the H21a.
It clearly has 4-21-14 cast in the sideframe and Altoona cast in the
right wheel. Note the ribbed back wheels as well.
Bill, I can't give you the PRR class designation for it, though others
on
the list probably can. However, it is a 70 ton Andrews truck which the
Pennsy (apparently unwilling to use the terminology employed by everyone
else in the RR industry) called a Crown truck.

Richard Hendrickson






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Re: Story re: Car Rocking Off Track

Charlie Vlk
 

The CA&E / CGW story is, I believe, more than an urban legend or an old
railroaders' tale....
It is an account similar to others posted here.... except this was presented
as a news item in a major daily newspaper at the time it was
purported to happen..... I made a copy of the microfilm image of the
Chicago Tribune article (I ran across it doing genealogical research....
sure is time consuming when you start to read 80 year old newspapers cover
to cover!!). The copy is mixed in with stacks of copies of genealogical
stuff that I haven't been working on for a long time so it isn't easily
accessible. Someday I'll run across it and post it to the files section if
anyone is interested.
Charlie Vlk

And I have heard that exact story at least 4 other times in different
places and on different railroads. I think it is just one of those old
head stories that gets passed from railroader to railroader.
Dave B.


Re: yellow SFRD reefer

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 6, 2005, at 9:16 AM, ed_mines wrote:

There's a file of SFRD reefer photos on the citrusmodeling web site.

Sure enough, the first car is nearly yellow. Could those in the know
take a look and comment on the color.
From the 1920s through the 1970s, the sides of Santa Fe reefers were painted a yellow-orange color similar to that used by PFE which, as Tony Thompson has often pointed out, is very close to (if not identical with) SP Daylight orange. There may have been minor variations in color from one batch of paint to another, but if a car appears to have yellow sides in a photo, it can be attributed to some combination of color shift in the photo and /or fading of the red pigment in the paint. Color photos of SFRD reefer trains show that, though the cars were all originally painted the same color, no two cars appear to be the same owing to the effects of age, fading, weathering, and dirt.

Richard Hendrickson


yellow SFRD reefer

ed_mines
 

There's a file of SFRD reefer photos on the citrusmodeling web site.

Sure enough, the first car is nearly yellow. Could those in the know
take a look and comment on the color.

Ed


Re: Name That Truck

Peter J. McClosky <pmcclosky@...>
 

Ah, The Pennsy,

The non-standard railroad of the world.

Peter J. McClosky
=====
Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On May 6, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Andy Miller wrote:

... What the Pennsy mechanical department chose to call a Crown truck was undeniably an Andrews truck. Their insistence on calling it a Crown truck appears to be just another example of their lofty indifference, in those days, to what was common practice everywhere else in the RR industry.

Richard Hendrickson
--
--
Peter J. McClosky
Los Angeles, CA
http://home.earthlink.net/~pmcclosky
pmcclosky@...


hole drilling template

ed_mines
 

I had a lot of problems with the hole drilling template provided with
the Tichy reefer.
Why don't you get a piece of drafting tape and lay out all of the
holes to be drilled with a pencil?
On the Tichy sides I used a small drafting triangle and a flat piece
of glass to get the lines perpendicular to the sides and to each other.
On unpainted, wood sided cars I drew directly on the wood.
You could also layout the holes while the tape is on a flat surface
and transfer the tape to the car side or use white layout dye instead
of the tape.

Ed


Re: Name That Truck

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 6, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Andy Miller wrote:

All right, Richard raises an interesting question. Why the name change.
Was their a difference between the "Andrews" and the "Crown" truck? The
sideframes appear to have a different shape.
Andy, Andrews trucks came in many different capacities, from thirty to one hundred tons, and many different side frame configurations. What made them Andrews trucks was the basic design principle of one piece cast steel side frames with separate, bolted-in journal boxes having steel bar lower journal box retainers that were bolted to the side frame. What the Pennsy mechanical department chose to call a Crown truck was undeniably an Andrews truck. Their insistence on calling it a Crown truck appears to be just another example of their lofty indifference, in those days, to what was common practice everywhere else in the RR industry.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: ACF Adapto flatcar

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bill Lane" <billlane@c...> wrote:
I just got 4 builders photos of the <amazing> ACF Adapto flatcar.
The trucks on this amazing car have enough personality (or lack of it)
to be on ther Long Island Railroad.

Ed


Re: Name That Truck

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tom Olsen wrote:
"I would guess that this is a 2D-F2 50-Ton Capacity Truck, which is
an early version Crown truck, with the Cast Steel Andrews sideframe."

After further review, including an off-list discussion with Brian
Butcher, I agree.


"The 2D-F2 was used under classes FM, GLa, GLb, GLc, GP, GPa, GR,
GRa, GS, GSa, GSc, GSd, GSx, H22, XL, XLa, X23, X24, X25, X25a, X28,
X29. All are 50 Ton cars."

One caveat about the truck classification diagrams - they do a great
job of listing which car classes got what trucks, but they don't tell
you how many cars got which truck. For example, you can't make the
assumption that the 50-ton Crown truck was the most common truck used
under Class X29 (it wasn't) or Class X25 (it was). As always, when
in doubt, model from a prototype photo.

BTW, several PRR truck classification diagrams are available online at
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRFreightCarTrucks.html


Ben Hom


Painting advice request

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Spring finally arrives here in the Great White North and I'm planning
to spend hours in the basement building and painting kits?!

Anyway, I'm about to work on a Sunshine #4.2 Frisco rebuild. The model
represents the cars with the "billboard" paint scheme. The data sheet
and instructions indicate that the ends, roof, doors and side sills
were a dark brown and the sides were a light tan.

Can someone offer up suggested colour matches for recreating this
paint job? I prefer working with Floquil or Scalecoat.

Many Thanks,
Pierre Oliver


bending grabs was Re: Templates for grab irons.

jerryglow2
 

Years ago when P2K came out with their Greenville gondola, the
infamous (?) Terry Wiegman engraved a pair of duckbill pliers to
bend the drop after making the basic U shape in a simple flat piece
of stock with a hole the proper distance from the edge. Barring
that, anothr friend simply ACCed a stop of styrene on the face of a
pair of pliers to do the same thing.
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/files/pliers.jpg

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@c...>
wrote:
Steve,

Check out one of the first installments of Ted Culotta's Essential
Freight
Cars series in RMC. In one of the early articles, Ted shows how
to do just
what you want.

Basically, he takes a piece of scribed siding and cuts a triangle
out it,
with one leg of it at 90 degrees. Of course, the bottom is wide
and tapers
to a point, or near point, at the top. You use this to make your
initial
bends to form a straight grab iron.

He then has another gizmo made from styrene that you place the
grab into and
bend the legs over to make your drop grab.

I've tried it and it works pretty nifty. Good luck.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Fuchs" <fuchst900@y...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Templates for grab irons.


Does anyone know of any templates for grab spacing. I want to
do a
Burlington HC1,the earliest of which had drop grabs. The
problem is
that I feel that my skill level might make the project results
look
worse than the straight grabs ladders I have applying. There are
templates for the brass "cab shades" for diesels that have the
holes
predrilled so proper spacing is assured. Thanks, Steve Fuchs






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Strange car actions

Jim King <jimking3@...>
 

While it may seem far fetched to hear of cars rocking off the track,
etc., I've seen 2 sets of photos from an NS car inspector of 2 "almost"
derailments, 1 in Ohio, 1 just west of here on the Tennessee side of the
S-line (west of Asheville, NC). Both incidents were on loaded unit coal
trains.

The Ohio set of pictures showed a truck that disintegrated somewhere on
the line leaving ONLY 1 axle/wheelset to support the car. The remaining
front axle had been trapped on the front side of the bolster and kept
the car from derailing. The truck frames were found in 2 separate
places along the line, along with various other parts, including a
broken axle and wheelsets scattered along the ROW. The remaining axle
ran so long under the car that it ground a pocket into the bolster the
same diameter as the axle. Reportedly, the car traveled this way for at
least 2 miles and the air hoses were never separated. A passing roll by
inspection found the problem.

The other incident happened earlier this year on a unit train between
Asheville and the TN border. The rear truck on a hopper somehow flipped
completely over and was riding upside down, jammed under the couplers.
The tightlock couplers didn't separate, nor did the air hoses, but all
inspectors figured that both cars raised up enough to allow the truck to
flip over and came back down . on the rails and without separating
anything to cause the car to go into emergency. A recent crossing
paving job finally caused the cars to go into emergency .. after the
train had traveled at least 3 miles!

If I hadn't seen pix of each "almost" derailments, I wouldn't have
believed it. But pictures don't lie and these were shot by car
department investigators at the scene before cleanup started. Where's
Ripley when you need him????

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.
http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com/

All messages scanned by Norton anti-virus software.


Re: Templates for grab irons.

jerryglow2
 

Along with Andy Miller's suggestion of the Tichy grabs and template,
you could lay out the pattern on almost any graphics program and print
it out. Tape or positionable glue it to the model and use a sharp
scriber to mark the locations. You could even do a 2nd set of marks to
use to locate NBWs

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Fuchs" <fuchst900@y...> wrote:
Does anyone know of any templates for grab spacing. I want to do a
Burlington HC1,the earliest of which had drop grabs. The problem is
that I feel that my skill level might make the project results look
worse than the straight grabs ladders I have applying. There are
templates for the brass "cab shades" for diesels that have the holes
predrilled so proper spacing is assured. Thanks, Steve Fuchs


Re: Name That Truck

Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
 

All right, Richard raises an interesting question. Why the name change.
Was their a difference between the "Andrews" and the "Crown" truck? The
sideframes appear to have a different shape.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Name That Truck

On May 5, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Bill Lane wrote:

I just got a few builders photos of this PRR truck, assembled and some
without the journal boxes.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_Truck_Side.jpg Can anyone
identify the PRR class for it? It resembles the trucks for the H21a.
It clearly has 4-21-14 cast in the sideframe and Altoona cast in the
right wheel. Note the ribbed back wheels as well.
Bill, I can't give you the PRR class designation for it, though others on
the list probably can. However, it is a 70 ton Andrews truck which the
Pennsy (apparently unwilling to use the terminology employed by everyone
else in the RR industry) called a Crown truck.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Templates for grab irons.

Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
 

Tichy makes very inexpensive scale grab irons in 18" and 24" lengths and
with and with or without the drop. All their kits come with a hole drilling
template which I believe is also sold separately. If not, buy one of their
R-40-4 kits and have fun!

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Steve Fuchs
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:39 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Templates for grab irons.

Does anyone know of any templates for grab spacing. I want to do a
Burlington HC1,the earliest of which had drop grabs. The problem is that I
feel that my skill level might make the project results look worse than the
straight grabs ladders I have applying. There are templates for the brass
"cab shades" for diesels that have the holes predrilled so proper spacing is
assured. Thanks, Steve Fuchs




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Re: Story re: Car Rocking Off Track

Dave Bayless
 

And I have heard that exact story at least 4 other times in different
places and on different railroads. I think it is just one of those old
head stories that gets passed from railroader to railroader.
Dave B.

Dave Bayless, UP/SP Engineer
Denver, Northwestern and Pacific RR
(The Mountain Road)
Design and Operations Dept, Auburn, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Charlie Vlk
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:41 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Story re: Car Rocking Off Track

Somewheres I have a Chicago Tribune clipping about an even more unusual
incident on the Chicago Great Western....
The story relates that the first car out of Aurora one foggy morning on
the
Chicago, Aurora & Elgin came to a screeching halt as it approached the
Chicago Great Western overpass.... to avoid hitting a boxcar sitting on
the
CA&E track!
Seems that sometime during the night a CGW freight had stopped when the
train went into emergency. The crew walked the train and found a
disconnected airhose in the middle of the train. They reconnected it
and
finished the run into Chicago. It wasn't until the CA&E reported the
car on
the tracks to them that they figured out what really happened..... the
boxcar had derailed and jumped cleanly off the tracks, parting the
airhoses
and uncoupling the couplers without damaging either. In the dark, foggy
night the crew didn't notice the car that had fallen onto the CA&E
tracks
below and nobody thought to count the cars to see if any were missing!!!
Charlie Vlk






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Re: Name That Truck

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

I have PRR Truck Classification diagrams that go back to 1932 and truck
line drawings that date back further, into the middle 'teens. The side
frame classification number, V7703, is at the top of the side frame
over the spring package. Unfortunately, you cannot see the bolster
classification number which is cast into the top of the bolster and is
not visible from the direction of the photo. Looking through the
classifications, this sideframe number is not listed in the listings
that I have.

There is a clue to what type of truck it is by the truck bolster
capacity (F50), which is cast on the truck side frame above and to the
left of the spring package opening. I would guess that this is a 2D-F2
50-Ton Capacity Truck, which is an early version Crown truck, with the
Cast Steel Andrews sideframe. The 2D-F2 was used under classes FM, GLa,
GLb, GLc, GP, GPa, GR, GRa, GS, GSa, GSc, GSd, GSx, H22, XL, XLa, X23,
X24, X25, X25a, X28, X29. All are 50 Ton cars.

Also dating the truck are the chilled cast iron wheels with MCB 1911 and
Altoona Foundry cast into the sides of the wheel. The South Altoona
Foundry made all the castings for the railroad from marker brackets to
to wheels to cylinders to station name signs, etc.. Whatever the
railroad needed, the South Altoona Foundry provided.

Richard was right in that it is a Crown, but a 50-Ton, not the 70-Ton
Crown which is a Class 2E-F2. It would be interesting if someone else on
this list has a set of PRR truck, sideframe and bolster classification
lists that pre-date the one's that I have.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On May 5, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Bill Lane wrote:



I just got a few builders photos of this PRR truck, assembled and some
without the journal boxes.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_Truck_Side.jpg Can anyone
identify the PRR class for it? It resembles the trucks for the H21a. It
clearly has 4-21-14 cast in the sideframe and Altoona cast in the right
wheel. Note the ribbed back wheels as well.

Bill, I can't give you the PRR class designation for it, though others
on the list probably can. However, it is a 70 ton Andrews truck which
the Pennsy (apparently unwilling to use the terminology employed by
everyone else in the RR industry) called a Crown truck.

Richard Hendrickson





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