Gee, Jerry, if you feel that strongly about it why don't you help him create one? The fact you can use e-mail already gives you more internet knowledge then Martin. For that matter, since Martin is so good at filling that steam-era niche with quality models for MoP prototypes, couldn't the MPHS add an "info page" with one of his catalogs? Don't give me any about free advertising either, Martin won't be around forever and I for one would love to help him out. If I could ever get HTML figured out I may do that.

Brad Bourbina
Quit gripin' and find a way to make it happen

I haven't yet figured out the purpose of lines above the reporting
marks and below the car number. The standard placement of reporting
marks makes sense, but I can't figure out why the lines would be there,
from a practical point of view.
Dean Payne

--- In STMFC@..., "bierglaeser" <bierglaeser@y...> wrote:

Judging by the foregoing messages on this topic there was a lot of
latitude regarding the presence or absence of lines above the

reporting marks and below the car number.

SNIP >
In 1960 the otherwise identical diagram is changed to locate the
reporting marks in relation to the top of the rail instead of the
bottom edge of the car side. This same diagram is shown in 1961.

In 1962 diagram is the first to appear without lines above the
reporting marks and below the car number.

Once again the oft repeated advice 'work from a photo' appears to be
the best way to go.

Gene Green

Expectations, expectations. Remember, manufacturers are issuing product not just for the few experts on this list but also a much wider audience. I continue to use Evergreen because it is expected. In fact, with my recent gon release I used individual boards because Evergreen did not have any the correct spacing but beveled the edges so the "scribing" would show better.

The trick in being successful is to walk a fine line between accuracy, expectation and ease of manufacture and construction. Byron Rose is one of the finest pattern builders around but his work gives me absolute fits trying to produce a saleable kit. That's because he refuses to compromise with accuracy. I compromise all the time, hopefully little enough that most modelers will forgive me in the euphoria of getting a car never produced before.

Regarding the internet, I find it invaluable because I can show the whole catalog, always up to date. Setting it up was a real bear, taking about 2 full weeks of spare time. And it took me several long days to change all the prices for the increase to be uploaded May 1. But changes and new products are really easy to do, built into the process of photographing the models and writing the history. I wish I could get rid of the paper catalog because keeping that up to date is much more difficult and expensive. Many customers still prefer it, so we keep it. Yet having that digitized now makes it easier than the old paste-up days.
I use a separate computer for all the graphics work to avoid clogging up the "business" computer. - Al Westerfield

SNARLLLLLLL! Catfight!

Ooooooh! There is nothing better than a fight between authors and publishers
of books on railroad history!

Tom Jones III

In a message dated 4/21/2005 11:19:55 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
asychis@... writes:

I think it's time for Martin to join the real world.

Jerry Michels




---> Jerry, while I see what you are saying, and can agree with you, there
are those who, for various reason, feel uncomfortable or have an aversion to
using the computer. What is too bad is that he can't get someone to host a
minimal website (something that isn't fancy, and is easy to update) with this
information. Anyway, my pair of pennies on it.

Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District

In a message dated 4/22/2005 3:15:27 AM Central Standard Time,
STMFC@... writes:
For those who don't know, the rules of the STMFC
expressly forbid discussing the business practices of a manufacturer:
Sorry guys, I got carried away.

Jerry Michels

Jerry Michels wrote:

Sorry, but Martin doesn't do e-mail. . .
But it is about high time he did. The internet is a powerful source of
information and becoming essential to both producers and consumers. . .

Gosh, Jerry, thanks for sharing. It's up to Martin, not to you, and is also off topic for this list, as I understand it. If you really want to send a message to Martin, why not do it directly?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

"Carriage bolts" is the correct term for bolts that have a rounded head with
a small square boss below the head at the top of the bolt shaft/threads. The
top of the bolt indeed looks like a rivet driven through the wood. Carriage
bolts are very commonly used to bolt down wood to metal structures, much
more so than standard hex head or square head bolts. This is because the
bolts do not prove to be a snag to loads, and because only one person is
needed to install them, as the square boss below the bolt head catches in
the wood and keeps the bolt from spinning while tightening. Rivets would
almost never be used to hold wood to a structure, as wood simply cannot
stand the riveting process without splitting, and once driven, a rivet is
not replaceable, but wood does wear out rapidly.

Carriage bolts were originally used for bolting together the frames and
structures on carriages, hence their name. They are very nice looking when
installed on an exposed surface, such as one might find on a wagon, etc.
They would be only slightly exposed on a flat car deck, and because loads
would tend to wear them on the tops, rust and other weathering would be
common after only a few uses of the car.

Tom Jones III

Does anyone have a photo or two of the Bettendorf
underframe used on the PFE reefers they'd be willing
to share ? A web site would work too.

There were photos in Cycs, and I have scans of some. Which one do you want? the original PFE 30-ton one?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Chuck Hladik wrote:

Am building the PBL kit of a DRGW 6500 series flat in Sn3 for a friend
and am at a loss as to how many "rivets" held down each individual deck plank.
On the kit, and PBL verifies this, the planks are 11.5" wide by width of the
car. Sure seems wide as my HO and O Red Caboose decks have 6" planks and one
"rivet" per position on each plank. Would an 11.5" have 2 "rivets" per position?

Those are, of course, bolt heads. On SP drawings they are called out as "carriage bolts," but whether that usage was universal, I don't know. On SP flats there was a bolt at the outer edge of each plank.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I was hoping that we could discuss the relative merits of different and/or new resin/whatever techniques without making judgements about the actions of various manufacturers. For those who don't know, the rules of the STMFC expressly forbid discussing the business practices of a manufacturer:

"Members are permitted to criticize or praise manufacturer's products free
from criticism from other members. Criticism of a manufacturer's business
practices is, however, not within the scope of the group.

ALL SUBJECTS OTHER THAN THOSE DIRECTLY ASSOCIATED WITH STEAM ERA FREIGHT
CARS ARE PROHIBITED FROM MEMBER MESSAGES."

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

Hi,
Does anyone have a photo or two of the Bettendorf
underframe used on the PFE reefers they'd be willing
to share ? A web site would work too.
Thanks
Felix Daigre

On Apr 21, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:

--- Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:

, I am also not one of the boycotter purists as I
think
personally, I would be cutting off my nose to spite
my face if I ignored all of the models produced with
Evergreen siding.

TED,
I don't view it as cutting off your nose at all.
BOYCOTT any excessive board spacing SS cars, and maybe
FH will be inspired to make his own sheathing. The
amount of time saved in producing fine sheathing vs
using Evergreen stock is a small part of the patern
maker's time. We modelers complain about molded on
grab irons, yet ACCEPT gross SS sides-seems oxymoronic
to me. Martin has stated that he would prefer
abandoning Evergreen scribed siding in his cars, but
he uses FH, and FH is adamant about using
Evergreen....!

We will eventually get better sides universally, until
then, our buying selections will influence how fast
this time will come.

Andy:

Frank hasn't used Evergreen for years. Anything that comes out with the Evergreen is because Martin was sitting on the patterns waiting for what he deemed to be an appropriate release schedule. Look at the NP single sheathed car that was released two years ago.

Regards,
ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

--- Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:

, I am also not one of the boycotter purists as I
think
personally, I would be cutting off my nose to spite
my face if I ignored all of the models produced with
Evergreen siding.

TED,
I don't view it as cutting off your nose at all.
BOYCOTT any excessive board spacing SS cars, and maybe
FH will be inspired to make his own sheathing. The
amount of time saved in producing fine sheathing vs
using Evergreen stock is a small part of the patern
maker's time. We modelers complain about molded on
grab irons, yet ACCEPT gross SS sides-seems oxymoronic
to me. Martin has stated that he would prefer
abandoning Evergreen scribed siding in his cars, but
he uses FH, and FH is adamant about using
Evergreen....!

We will eventually get better sides universally, until
then, our buying selections will influence how fast
this time will come.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Apr 21, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Scott Pitzer wrote:

Used to be, a well-detail model in a close-up photo would probably be "given away" by the size of the wheel treads or the couplers. Or possibly by grab irons being too heavy. All those things have improved, or can be improved, as shown in Ted's Essential Freight Cars series. But in the latest installment on alternate ARA single-sheathed box cars, the giveaway is the sheathing used by the pattern maker who created the resin kit. This has been mentioned before, and come to think of it, I believe I heard Sylvan has kits that are a big improvement. But I was wondering if there's hope for some better sheet products (varying widths) to come on the market--
better than what Evergreen currently offers. I don't necessarily see myself using them to create a car, but it would be nice if they were available to those pattern makers we depend on...

Scott:

I think that either scribing individual boards or using individual strips of styrene are the way to go. While I don't like the sheathing on these models, I am also not one of the boycotter purists as I think personally, I would be cutting off my nose to spite my face if I ignored all of the models produced with Evergreen siding.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

In a message dated 4/21/2005 10:51:41 PM Central Standard Time,
STMFC@... writes:
Sorry, but Martin doesn't do e-mail. He's too busy with the business.
Letters work, but he can be slow to answer sometimes.
But it is about high time he did. The internet is a powerful source of
information and becoming essential to both producers and consumers. Seems that
Westerfield isn't crippled by being too busy with the HIS business to use the
internet. I don't think this is the case, I think it is an excuse to cover an
aversion to learning to use the internet. I don't see more Sunshine models
coming out versus Westerfield, so the "busy" argument doesn't hold much water.
It would be nice to see what Martin has available via a website rather than
have to write each time you need a product list, and then wait two to three
months to get the information! Would it be better if this list didn't exist and we
sent out a letter every two to three months with everyone's questions and
answers? I think it's time for Martin to join the real world.

Jerry Michels

I was just informed off-list that Jim is involved in RP, not just in support
of the model railroad resin models, but as a primary function. When I
visited Jim's site, unlike the model railroad bits, the RP section had no
content, so I mistakenly read his stuff as the RP being secondary and in
support of the model railroad work.

In this case, I misunderstood. If Jim's business is RP, I hold nothing
against him for not sharing his techniques.

My apologies for the bandwidth.

Pete

_____________________________________________________
 Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
 Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
 (wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)

________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Pete
Brown (YahooGroups)
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 7:50 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Keeping processes secret (was RE: [STMFC] Rapid prototyping
sources)

I mean no offense to anyone here by the following rant. However, you struck
a bit of a nerve.

This type of stuff drives me nuts. If you're not willing to share the
details, why bring it up other than as an ad?

I run into this all the time when trying to find good processes for photo
etching and other techniques. Rather than the knowledge being shared,
built-upon and the processes enhanced, each person has to learn anew what
the others have done before them.

I personally do not think the knowledge in these various manufacturing
processes is as proprietary or secret or even as valuable as the
secret-holders make it sound.

For the most part, people aren't going to jump in and become your
competitor. 99% of the people who learn how you do something will do nothing
with the knowledge other than learn something esoteric from it. If they do
jump in, chances are (in this industry) they will not be directly competing
with you in any way that would cause you to lose any revenue on any one kit.

I personally am interested in all facets of small-scale kit production. I
own a small CNC setup, and do some resin casting. I hope to produce some
WM-specific items in the future (later rather than sooner, most likely)

As I learn each thing, I try to put it up on my website so that others can
learn from it. I know not everyone is willing to go to that level,
especially as it means an investment in time and resources. I wouldn't
expect anyone to. However, I really think the knowledge, at some reasonable
level, should be shared if it is going to be mentioned at all.

One of the ways to keep the dying kit-building facet of our hobby alive is
to lower the barrier of entry for small manufacturers to produce
reasonably-priced kits of direct interest to specific segments. Taking the
knowledge to your grave does very little to further the hobby.

Pete

I mean no offense to anyone here by the following rant. However, you struck
a bit of a nerve.

This type of stuff drives me nuts. If you're not willing to share the
details, why bring it up other than as an ad?

I run into this all the time when trying to find good processes for photo
etching and other techniques. Rather than the knowledge being shared,
built-upon and the processes enhanced, each person has to learn anew what
the others have done before them.

I personally do not think the knowledge in these various manufacturing
processes is as proprietary or secret or even as valuable as the
secret-holders make it sound.

For the most part, people aren't going to jump in and become your
competitor. 99% of the people who learn how you do something will do nothing
with the knowledge other than learn something esoteric from it. If they do
jump in, chances are (in this industry) they will not be directly competing
with you in any way that would cause you to lose any revenue on any one kit.

I personally am interested in all facets of small-scale kit production. I
own a small CNC setup, and do some resin casting. I hope to produce some
WM-specific items in the future (later rather than sooner, most likely)

As I learn each thing, I try to put it up on my website so that others can
learn from it. I know not everyone is willing to go to that level,
especially as it means an investment in time and resources. I wouldn't
expect anyone to. However, I really think the knowledge, at some reasonable
level, should be shared if it is going to be mentioned at all.

One of the ways to keep the dying kit-building facet of our hobby alive is
to lower the barrier of entry for small manufacturers to produce
reasonably-priced kits of direct interest to specific segments. Taking the
knowledge to your grave does very little to further the hobby.

Pete

_____________________________________________________
 Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis)
 Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com
 (wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr)

________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Jim
King
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:00 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Rapid prototyping sources

I won't disclose my SLA sources due to proprietary reasons.  I
appreciate the interest I've rec'd off-list and will try to work with
anyone seriously interested in having products made this way, however,
for obvious reasons, I can't and won't give up any information on the
how's, where's, and why's of a process I've spent a long time
developing.

Anyone wanting information about pricing, info required, etc., should
contact me off list so as not to clog up the group with chatter that
many will not have interest in.

Regards,

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

All messages scanned by Norton anti-virus software.

Used to be, a well-detail model in a close-up photo would probably be "given away" by the size of the wheel treads or the couplers. Or possibly by grab irons being too heavy. All those things have improved, or can be improved, as shown in Ted's Essential Freight Cars series. But in the latest installment on alternate ARA single-sheathed box cars, the giveaway is the sheathing used by the pattern maker who created the resin kit. This has been mentioned before, and come to think of it, I believe I heard Sylvan has kits that are a big improvement. But I was wondering if there's hope for some better sheet products (varying widths) to come on the market-- better than what Evergreen currently offers. I don't necessarily see myself using them to create a car, but it would be nice if they were available to those pattern makers we depend on...

Scott Pitzer

I'm finishing a Bowser F30a on which I supplemented the steel weights with lead sheet and shot, using Clear Gel Tacky Glue. All was fine until I started test-fitting my intended load, a 50' section of Walthers "conveyor." The car is a couple inches higher in the middle than on the ends. I think it was fine before I glued the weights in. Now I'm putting it outside in the sun with a pile of weights in the middle, but I haven't seen any change.
What I SHOULD HAVE DONE was clamp the car to a piece of glass during the weight-gluing operation.
I may have to change to some other load that sits in the middle. (The first thing I did on the car was distress and paint the deck, so I don't want to hide it.)

Scott Pitzer