Date   

Re: Station & Reweigh Symbols

James F. Brewer <jfbrewer@...>
 

This should be East Tulsa, OK. My typo.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" <smokeandsteam@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 7:45 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Station & Reweigh Symbols



Question

ET SLSF East Tulso OK

Is this "East Tulsa" or "East Thomas" which was the Frisco's yard in
Birmingham, Al? The latter *may* have been ETH, but I have never seen
definitive proof

FRA GM&O

This is the symbol for the former GM&N Frascati car shops, Mobile, Alabama


Aidrian



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Re: F&C Pennsy GR gon sits too low? Or couplers?

Dean Payne <deanpayne@...>
 

I figured out what the problem is with my couplers, while I was
working on a few cars with low trip pins today. I noticed the
couplers drooped on the GR gon... and the coupler box looked
tilted! Yep, pulled the coupler box and saw that the end sill was
deeper than the coupler pad. So, I carved off the little bit of end
sill to make it flush with the coupler pad and reassembled, voila!
The tilt of the coupler exacerbated the problem, causing the coupler
to pull down while pushing the other car's coupler up, causing
separation. Lesson learned! I think the Kadee coupler box has too
much play, or is it because I used a McHenry scale sized coupler? I
might try a shim inside the coupler box, if that would help reduce
the vertical play.
I should have started with a better kit! I seem to remember fixing a
similar problem on another kit that I completed while working on this
one...
Dean Payne

--- In STMFC@..., "Dean Payne" <deanpayne@a...> wrote:

Brian,
The Keystone Modeller site had some problems, IIRC, and now only
issues #7 and above are online, so I cannot reference TKM #4.
BTW, the issue with the GR gon is #3, not #4. It also has the
Westerfield GRA kit (but of course, the included instructions must be
good enough not to need re-doing...)

Dean Payne

--- In STMFC@..., Brian Carlson <prrk41361@y...> wrote:
Dean, you may want to Check the PRRTHS TKM #4, 11-03 where Elden
Gatwood covered modeling these cars in resin, while I couldn't
really tell if he shimed his cars (At least one was the Sunshine
model though) you make be able to with your car in hand.

Brian J carlson


Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur

Richard Hendrickson
 

Ranyd Williamson writes:

At 03:59 PM 1/20/2005, you wrote:
The Santa Fe,
like PFE, avoided handing off perishable traffic to the Pennsy, which had
the nation's worst record for timely movement of perishables,

In 1954, the Pennsy received 7,500 cars of perishables from the Chicago
Produce Terminal. Approximately 60,000 carloads of perishable traffic
eastbound were handled through the Dolton interchange with the IHB.
And your point is?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Station & Reweigh Symbols

Richard Hendrickson
 

Aidrian Bridgman writes:

ET SLSF East Tulso OK

Is this "East Tulsa" or "East Thomas" which was the Frisco's yard in
Birmingham, Al? The latter *may* have been ETH, but I have never seen
definitive proof
Can't answer this one; let us know if you find out. Note that the list
does include TY for Thomas Yard.

FRA GM&O
This is the symbol for the former GM&N Frascati car shops, Mobile, Alabama
Thanks! One more small piece of the puzzle.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur

Randy Williamson <pennsy@...>
 

At 03:59 PM 1/20/2005, you wrote:
The Santa Fe,
like PFE, avoided handing off perishable traffic to the Pennsy, which had
the nation's worst record for timely movement of perishables,

In 1954, the Pennsy received 7,500 cars of perishables from the Chicago
Produce Terminal. Approximately 60,000 carloads of perishable traffic
eastbound were handled through the Dolton interchange with the IHB.

Randy


Re: Station & Reweigh Symbols

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

Question

ET SLSF East Tulso OK

Is this "East Tulsa" or "East Thomas" which was the Frisco's yard in
Birmingham, Al? The latter *may* have been ETH, but I have never seen
definitive proof

FRA GM&O

This is the symbol for the former GM&N Frascati car shops, Mobile, Alabama


Aidrian



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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005


Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur

Richard Hendrickson
 

I wouldn't put too much stock in the Chicago bottleneck theory as far as
perishables....
The CB&Q had strict shedules to drop eastbound reefers and livestock at the
IHB interchange at Congress Park. I believe the IHB forwarded the cars to
the NYC, NKP, etc.. with equal haste... an extra 2-3 days for produce, meat
(live or hanging) would not be tolerated by either the railroads or the
shippers...too much money at stake.
Charlie Vlk
Charlie is quite right. Low priority freight such as coal and other bulk
minerals might have taken two or three days to thread its way through the
Chicago maze, but perishables were handled expeditiously. For example,
eastbound SFRD reefers arriving at the Santa Fe's Corwith Yard in South
Chicago were switched immediately to the Indiana Harbor Belt, which would
ice the cars if necessary at Blue Island and then forward them to the Erie
at Hammond, IN for 10 p.m. departure to the New York City area and New
England, to the Grand Trunk Western for southern Canadian destinations, or
to the B&O for mid-Atlantic destinations. In all cases, the cars spent
less than 24 hours in the Chicago area - often much less. The Santa Fe,
like PFE, avoided handing off perishable traffic to the Pennsy, which had
the nation's worst record for timely movement of perishables, or the New
York Central, which moved its own perishable traffic fairly quickly but
tended to be much less efficient in handling traffic that originated off
line.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: MDT reefers

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

ed_mines wrote:


--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...> wrote - "So it was certainly the case the MDT
and other off-line reefers sometimes turned up as eastbound loads in
western reefer blocks, but such trains never had "a lot" of off-line
cars.

Thanks for your reply. That's what I thought. Unfortunately I wanted
to justify more MDT reefers in Erie trains.

When did the special handling of reefers due to the shortage around
the time of WWII end?
According to the PROCEEDINGS OF THE 1948 AAR's SUPERINTENDENT's CONVENTION, the "Tide distribution orders" of the ICC had been ended and the distribution of reefers were as per owner's instructions or in service run.

The effect of the cancellation of "tide orders" can be clearly be seen in the table on page 450 of Thompson et al.'s PACIFIC FRUIT EXPRESS (2nd Edition) where the percentage of perishables loaded in PFE cars on PFE railroads increased from abbot two third's in 1947 to 85% in 1949.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur

Shawn Beckert
 

Boy do I wish I could find this kind of day-to-day information
on the Cotton Belt, or even the SP-TNO. You must have done some
serious dumpster diving back in those days, Chet!

Shawn Beckert, very envious...

-----Original Message-----
From:
sentto-2554753-37716-1106254647-shawn.beckert=disney.com@....
yahoo.com
[mailto:sentto-2554753-37716-1106254647-shawn.beckert=disney.com@returns
.groups.yahoo.com]On Behalf Of Chet French
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur




--- In STMFC@..., "Chet French" <cfrench@g...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Mike Aufderheide <mononinmonon@y...>
wrote:
Chet,

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. Any idea
how these were routed. UP to Council Bluffs? Were
these cars part of block dropped at Decatur from a
train going through to the east?
Mike,

The larger amount of perishable traffic was received by the Wabash
at
Kansas City from the SP/CRIP and UP. Some cars were received at
Council Bluffs from the UP. All the cars arrived at Decatur on
trains 82, 90, and 98 from Kansas City. Cars received at Council
Bluffs would have been added to these trains at Moberly, Mo. There
was one exception, PFE 61266, Spuds, arrived at Decatur on train
93,
from Chicago. The Wabash forwarded a large number of perishable
cars
to the ERIE at Huntington, IN, for movement east.
MORE

In looking at a few morning reports, it appears that train 1-90 was
the main perishable handling train out of Kansas City on the Wabash.
This train almost always handled loads only; livestock, perishable,
and Red Ball loads, (Wabash's term for priority or hot loading other
than perishable). The following shows this train for 10 days in
1950. Note that on the 16th and 20th, the train handles one car of
livestock. Power on the trains was F7 A-B-A sets numbered in the
1100 series, and FA-1 A-B-A sets numbered in the 1200's. Totals
included the perishable followed by the Red Ball loads.

11/11/50 1105 68-9
11/12/50 1202 66-12-1 (one mty?)
11/13/50 1101 74-4
11/14/50 1203 72-5
11/15/50 1202 81-0
11/16/50 1100 1-74-4
11/17/50 1103 62-18
11/18/50 1100 76-4
11/19/50 1102 1-71-4

During these same 10 days, the main perishable handling train out of
St Louis for points north and east was No. 98. The train handled
between 15 and 20 perishable each day with the exception of one day
when there were 27 cars. This train was still getting 2900 series 4-
8-4's.

The subject of the file with the list of 33 cars was in regard to the
Wabash delivering the cars to the B&O in time for them to be
forwarded in a B&O train scheduled to departed Decatur for the east
at 11:30am each day. Only three of the cars missed the connection.

Chet French
Dixon, IL







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Re: RI empty PFE trains

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jeff Aley forwarded comments of Mark Amfahr; among them were:
On the economic side,
there would have been additional car delay resulting in more per-diem
expense for RI on those cars, unless there happened to be some sort of
reclaim mechanism involved. I'm curious if anyone can offer comments as to why
RI-SP handled their westbound empty PFE's that way vs. normal train
schedules, and was there indeed a per-diem reclaim arrangement between
the RR's to help RI with the extra cost of moving the cars that way?
Mark obviously is unaware that there was no per-diem on reefers; they were charged by mileage moved, so storing them was "free" in that sense.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur

Charlie Vlk
 

I wouldn't put too much stock in the Chicago bottleneck theory as far as
perishables....
The CB&Q had strict shedules to drop eastbound reefers and livestock at the
IHB interchange at Congress Park. I believe the IHB forwarded the cars to
the NYC, NKP, etc.. with equal haste... an extra 2-3 days for produce, meat
(live or hanging) would not be tolerated by either the railroads or the
shippers...too much money at stake.
Charlie Vlk


Re: WP 50 DD ss box to 40 DD ss box conversion

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Benjamin Hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:
Charlie Vlk asked:
"A neat conversion. How close is it to what prototype(s)?"

It's closest to the WAB radial roof SS automobile boxcars. It
scales out
about 1' too long and ~4-6" too high. The number of roof carlines
will be
correct but are slightly off in spacing. The MDC doors are 6'-6';
the
Wabash cars look to be 5'-6' or 5'-7'. The end door is a decent
match to
the WAB cars; the A end will have to be replaced with a 3/3/3
Dreadnaught
end (the Tyco 50 ft plug door boxcar is one source!) or 5/5/6
Murphy end.
See George Drake's article in the November/December 1980 Mainline
Modeler
for more information on the Wabash cars.


"The same conversion could be done in N with the Walthers car."

If the N scale Walthers car is the same as the HO car, it has a
peaked roof
vice the radial roof. I'm not sure what prototypes would match.

Ben,

At Cocoa Beach, Steve Funaro stated that the Wabash SS automobile
cars are his next project, which he wanted to start right away. Of
course I think I heard this a few years ago also.

Chet French


Re: Milk/Dairy Ops - Midwest - Long

Brian Termunde
 

My Mom told me about how if she or her sisters got up early and got to the
milk on a cold morning, the milk delivered would have frozen and the they'd have
fun eating what was really 'iced' cream, so cream would have to be lighter to
float to the top of the milk. The connection to STMFC? My Grandfather worked
for the Rio Grande in Salt Lake and they saw Steam Era Freight Cars all the
time.

Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah
"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District

In a message dated 1/20/2005 6:59:23 PM Mountain Standard Time,
CBarkan@... writes:
I don't doubt that the cream may have been carried in separate, smaller,
cream cans, but it is not "heavier" than milk. Consider where the cream in
non-homogenized milk accumulates and you will realize that is less dense than
milk.

Chris


Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Chet French" <cfrench@g...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Mike Aufderheide <mononinmonon@y...>
wrote:
Chet,

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. Any idea
how these were routed. UP to Council Bluffs? Were
these cars part of block dropped at Decatur from a
train going through to the east?
Mike,

The larger amount of perishable traffic was received by the Wabash
at
Kansas City from the SP/CRIP and UP. Some cars were received at
Council Bluffs from the UP. All the cars arrived at Decatur on
trains 82, 90, and 98 from Kansas City. Cars received at Council
Bluffs would have been added to these trains at Moberly, Mo. There
was one exception, PFE 61266, Spuds, arrived at Decatur on train
93,
from Chicago. The Wabash forwarded a large number of perishable
cars
to the ERIE at Huntington, IN, for movement east.
MORE

In looking at a few morning reports, it appears that train 1-90 was
the main perishable handling train out of Kansas City on the Wabash.
This train almost always handled loads only; livestock, perishable,
and Red Ball loads, (Wabash's term for priority or hot loading other
than perishable). The following shows this train for 10 days in
1950. Note that on the 16th and 20th, the train handles one car of
livestock. Power on the trains was F7 A-B-A sets numbered in the
1100 series, and FA-1 A-B-A sets numbered in the 1200's. Totals
included the perishable followed by the Red Ball loads.

11/11/50 1105 68-9
11/12/50 1202 66-12-1 (one mty?)
11/13/50 1101 74-4
11/14/50 1203 72-5
11/15/50 1202 81-0
11/16/50 1100 1-74-4
11/17/50 1103 62-18
11/18/50 1100 76-4
11/19/50 1102 1-71-4

During these same 10 days, the main perishable handling train out of
St Louis for points north and east was No. 98. The train handled
between 15 and 20 perishable each day with the exception of one day
when there were 27 cars. This train was still getting 2900 series 4-
8-4's.

The subject of the file with the list of 33 cars was in regard to the
Wabash delivering the cars to the B&O in time for them to be
forwarded in a B&O train scheduled to departed Decatur for the east
at 11:30am each day. Only three of the cars missed the connection.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Milk/Dairy Ops - Midwest - Long

CBarkan@...
 

In a message dated 1/18/05 3:41:35 PM, lanceb@... writes:
<< If the farmer owned a separator, he would also have cream, but this was

much heavier than milk and was carried in its own smaller cream cans. >>

I don't doubt that the cream may have been carried in separate, smaller,
cream cans, but it is not "heavier" than milk. Consider where the cream in
non-homogenized milk accumulates and you will realize that is less dense than milk.

Chris


Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur

CBarkan@...
 

The B&O sold the Alton to the recently created GM&O (1941) in 1947. By the
way, the last legacy of the B&O ownership of the Alton has disappeared in the
last year or so at least on the section north of Bloomington, IL, the
color-position light signals. Perhaps there are still some left farther south. I
always wondered what the SP and subsequent UP signal engineers must have thought
when they encountered these things.

Chris

In a message dated 1/19/05 9:56:33 PM, timboconnor@... writes:

<< A question
that interests me, personally, is whether the list dates
from after the time when the B&O gave up control of the
Chicago & Alton. Before giving up control, B&O probably
would prefer to take delivery from the Alton rather than
from one of the Alton's competitors... >>


Re: WP 50 DD ss box to 40 DD ss box conversion

skibbs4 <mmrace4@...>
 

Nope, no radial roof for us. Neat car though... I suppose there are
harder things to scratchbuild than radial roofs.

Mike Skibbe
www.cgwrr.com


--- In STMFC@..., "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@c...> wrote:
Ben-
I'll have to pull out the Walthers N cars to see what they have on
them. I
don't recall the end doors but we have other cars that could be
donors....but I also don' t recall if it has a radial roof...
Thanks,
Charlie Vlk


Re: Wabash to the B&O at Decatur

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:
Chet French wrote

The Wabash forwarded a large number of perishable cars
to the ERIE at Huntington, IN, for movement east.
This raises an interesting issue - Since Chicago was notorious
for lengthy delays (2-3 days to get through the interchanges) was
it a common practice among the eastern and midwestern carriers to
exchange perishables at other locations where connections got the
cars moving east sooner, rather than later?

For example, Huntington is shown 24 miles southwest of Fort Wayne.
On that same line in Indiana, the Wabash crossed the Monon, NYC,
NKP, PRR, ERIE, and B&O. I never thought about it before, but would
Wabash have made most perishable connections via these lesser
interchanges rather than via the big "gateway" cities?

Tim,

Without digging through the boxes in the basement, I do know that the
Wabash delivered perishable cars to the PRR at Logansport for
movement east. Perhaps some also went to the PRR at Ft Wayne. The
Wabash crossed the B&O main line at St. Joe, Indiana, but I do not
have any info regarding interchange at that point.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


MDT reefers

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...> wrote - "So it was certainly the case the MDT
and other off-line reefers sometimes turned up as eastbound loads in
western reefer blocks, but such trains never had "a lot" of off-line
cars.

Thanks for your reply. That's what I thought. Unfortunately I wanted
to justify more MDT reefers in Erie trains.

When did the special handling of reefers due to the shortage around
the time of WWII end?

How's the tank car book coming?

Ed


Re: WP 50 DD ss box to 40 DD ss box conversion

Charlie Vlk
 

Ben-
I'll have to pull out the Walthers N cars to see what they have on them. I
don't recall the end doors but we have other cars that could be
donors....but I also don' t recall if it has a radial roof...
Thanks,
Charlie Vlk