Use an ALPS printer to print rows of periods ("."), properly sized, then cut
them out and apply individually for variation of height above rail.

ROTFLOL!
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

I think it would be interesting to try to model the two rows of

nail marks on the car side. Has anyone attempted this sort of
thing? I wouldn't do the pin-prick method - too course for this
application. But to do it with paint? Not sure I could make that
work very well. [erhaps a dry brush approach using post it notes
immediately above each row of "nails".

Rob Kirkham

I would think that the pin-prick method would be your best bet for
recreating this effect. A really sharp pin and a steady light touch
should do the trick. Trying to keep the "nailholes" in scale is a
long time problem.
Pierre Oliver

I had forgotten the C&BT cars. Thanx Ben.

regards,

Andy Miller

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Other types of steel ends were developed (e.g. Vulcan vertical

corrugated and Hutchins in the 1920s, Buckeye and Deco in the early
1930s) but were never widely adopted.<


I was looking at patents for freight car ends at the US Patent Office
web site some months ago and I noticed that there were literally
hundreds of patents granted for metal/corrugated freight car ends from
~1910 to ~1930. Some, I recall, predated 1910. There were multiple
patents for ends with "bulls-eye", "vertical corrugations", horizontal
corrugations, etc. Obviously very few ever became commercial products.
I never did find a patent for what Chris Barkan terms " the
indestructible end".

Bob Witt

Now that I look more closely, it could indeed be a mark on the car side that affected the font for the 7. I'm not very familiar with the font itself too judge.

Is there a Westerfield kit or some other kit for this car?

I think it would be interesting to try to model the two rows of nail marks on the car side. Has anyone attempted this sort of thing? I wouldn't do the pin-prick method - too course for this application. But to do it with paint? Not sure I could make that work very well. [erhaps a dry brush approach using post it notes immediately above each row of "nails".

Rob Kirkham

Andy Miller wrote:
"ATSF also had cars similar to this but that required even more work. I
don't
recall of the top of my head what it was."

An easier approach to the SFRD plug door reefers is to use the C&BT A1, B1,
C1, and E1 Santa Fe reefer kits, or the Sunshine 43 series kits (still
available). The C&BT plug door kits have not been superceded by the
Intermountain models and are worth hanging on to if you can find them. See
Jordan/Hendrickson/Moore/Hale's Refrigerator Cars for specific information
on these cars:
http://www.atsfrr.org/store/book3.htm


Ben Hom

From Garrett Rea:

Do you see what I am seeing with the end side panels, or am I nuts?

Everyone on this list is nuts, otherwise why would we be doing this? That
said, I think I see what you're talking about, but I don't think the end
side panels are wider than the others; rather, I think the square-cornered
flat riveted ends extend out beyond the side sheathing more than we're used
to seeing, especially on 1937 spec. AAR box cars with round cornered ends
and W-section corner posts.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Stefan,
As Ben Hom said, they are at best stand-ins. That said, several companies
ran cars similar to this in the last era of ice reefers. Plug doors were
becoming popular but roof heights could not be pushed too high or icing
crews would need to push the ice blocks up hill!

I have used these 8'7" IH box cars and reefers as stand-ins for similar
reefers of FGEX, WFE, PFE (r40-26?). I have seen photos of them in old
books at my model RR club. As I recall the PFE car require a tabbed side
sill and they all could stand to have an IM Murphy roof. I have done this
on a few. I have a Sam Herschbein photo of FGEX 59932 downloaded from the
web. Unfortunately I do not recall where on the web so I can't point you to
the JPEG.

ATSF also had cars similar to this but that required even more work. I don't
recall of the top of my head what it was.

regards,

Andy Miller

Rob:



Not so sure that it is a different style number. I think that it is some
sort of mark on the side of the car.



Thanks,

Rich Ramik





_____

From: Rob Kirkham [mailto:rdkirkham@...]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] WFEX 62774




An interesting photo of this car can be seen at
http://www.livinglandscapes.bc.ca/cgi-bin/view?seq=1
<http://www.livinglandscapes.bc.ca/cgi-bin/view?seq=1&thread=kcm0204&hilite=
train&mag=1&op=ZoomIn> &thread=kcm0204&hilite=train&mag=1&op=ZoomIn
Something I found odd was the appearance of two different styles used for
the 7's in the car number. the photo has a 20's or 30's look about it from
the garb on the folks standing out front. Unfortuneately the web page it is
posted on lacks a date.

Comments?

Rob Kirkham








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Looks like the second 7 has a dirt speck or something like the right hand side of the car, not a different letter style

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

An interesting photo of this car can be seen at http://www.livinglandscapes.bc.ca/cgi-bin/view?seq=1&thread=kcm0204&hilite=train&mag=1&op=ZoomIn
Something I found odd was the appearance of two different styles used for the 7's in the car number. the photo has a 20's or 30's look about it from the garb on the folks standing out front. Unfortuneately the web page it is posted on lacks a date.

Comments?

Rob Kirkham









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An interesting photo of this car can be seen at http://www.livinglandscapes.bc.ca/cgi-bin/view?seq=1&thread=kcm0204&hilite=train&mag=1&op=ZoomIn
Something I found odd was the appearance of two different styles used for the 7's in the car number. the photo has a 20's or 30's look about it from the garb on the folks standing out front. Unfortuneately the web page it is posted on lacks a date.

Comments?

Rob Kirkham

Rob Kirkham wrote:

An interesting photo of this car can be seen at . . .
Something I found odd was the appearance of two different styles used for the 7's in the car number. the photo has a 20's or 30's look about it from the garb on the folks standing out front.

Actually, the first three digits of the car number all look different from the slab-serif, heavy stroke characters used by FGE and associates, which can be seen in the last two digits and in the car lettering. Probably repainted somewhere outside the FGE sandbox.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I will add to the useful analyses provided by resident engineers Tony
Thompson and Jeff English that X29-style plate steel ends had internal
stiffeners in the form of vertical hat-shaped end posts (that's what those
rows of vertical rivets on the outsides of the ends were about) to which
internal wood linings were attached and which, up to a point, absorbed
impacts from shifting cargo.

Corrugated steel ends, as Jeff says, began to appear ca. 1910, first with
the corrugations stamped inward and later with the corrugations facing
outward (in the teens the Canadian Pacific built an experimental single
sheathed box car in which both the end and side sheathing was corrugated
steel). Prior to their development, wood ends were the most vulnerable
part of a box car, and damage to car ends from rough train handling causing
the cargo to shift was a chronic problem. Corrugated steel ends, though
they didn't entirely eliminate the problem, greatly reduced it, and after
corrugated ends were applied to all of the USRA box cars, relatively few
box and auto cars were built without them.

The Dreadnaught end, which first began to appear in the mid-1920s, was even
stiffer and more energy-abosrbent than corrugated ends (though not entirely
immune from damage), and was subsequently even further improved by
W-section corner posts (1940) and the postwar Improved Dreadnaught design
(1944). Other types of steel ends were developed (e.g. Vulcan vertical
corrugated and Hutchins in the 1920s, Buckeye and Deco in the early 1930s)
but were never widely adopted.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Thanks Ben! I had a feeling these were only stand-ins.
Stefan


--- In STMFC@..., "Benjamin Hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:

Stefan Lerché asked:
"Is there a prototype for either of these cars? The steel car (Walthers
#932-3223) looks like a old ARA design but with a big plug door, so it
was obviously a late 1950s modification? or?"

Both these kits were originally from the Train-Miniature line. This

kit is

a bizarre mish-mash of details - an 8 foot wide plug door, 8 panel sides
(that don't extend to the side sill), 3/3/3 Dreadnaught ends, an odd 11
carline flat panel roof, and the rehashed Rock Island reefer underframe
that's used for all the cars in this line. The car is similar in
proportions to the BAR/NH "State of Maine" insulated boxcars, but these
prototypes had 10 panel sides, improved Dreadnaught ends, diagonal panel
roofs, and straight center sills.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bar/bar2573ajc.jpg

It sort of looks like the final iteration of the DT&I USRA DS boxcar
rebuilds, but even the three-foot rule won't help this model fool

anyone.

There aren't any prototype matches for this model.
http://dti.railfan.net/Pototype_Images/rs/DTI_19028be.jpg


"The SS car is still listed on the website:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-2121 "

The SS car is more useful, but you'll need to do a lot of work to make a
credible model. The model resembles a number of 8 ft 7 in IH Howe

truss SS

boxcars of the 1920 for many roads, the most common cars for the MILW:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/milwssboxmain.html
Other roads with similar include ATSF (ex-Clinton & Oklahoma

Western), CN,

CV, G&F, KCS, LNE, L&A, Missouri & Arkansas, MP/I-GN, and RI, though

all of

these cars have different ends and/or roofs than the model. Some of

these

prototypes are available in resin from Sunshine and Funaro. Richard
Hendrickson kitbashed ATSF Class Bx-22 from this model during the

1980s; you

can catch a glimpse of it in a model freight consist article in the

January

1990 Railmodel Journal. (Unfortunately, this model was stolen some time
ago.)

The biggest flaws of this model are the roof, which isn't a very

convincing

model of either the Murphy XLA or Hutchins roof common to these

cars; the

ends, especially the DS end or the 3/3/3 Dreadnaught end (the

"braced end"

is salvageable), and the rehashed RI reefer underframe.

This model is currently most valuable as a "Tan Dot" stand-in to

break up

the "sea of 10 ft 6 in steel boxcars" prevalent on many layouts. By

doing

basic upgrades to this model (similar to what I did to the Walthers

X29 in

my TKM series) with new paint and lettering, you can visually crate some
variety in your boxcar fleet and "stair step" in your trains until

you've

built enough "Green Dot" single sheathed boxcar models from resin

kits and

quality kitbashes.


Ben Hom

Stefan Lerch� asked:
"Is there a prototype for either of these cars? The steel car (Walthers
#932-3223) looks like a old ARA design but with a big plug door, so it
was obviously a late 1950s modification? or?"

Both these kits were originally from the Train-Miniature line. This kit is
a bizarre mish-mash of details - an 8 foot wide plug door, 8 panel sides
(that don't extend to the side sill), 3/3/3 Dreadnaught ends, an odd 11
carline flat panel roof, and the rehashed Rock Island reefer underframe
that's used for all the cars in this line. The car is similar in
proportions to the BAR/NH "State of Maine" insulated boxcars, but these
prototypes had 10 panel sides, improved Dreadnaught ends, diagonal panel
roofs, and straight center sills.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bar/bar2573ajc.jpg

It sort of looks like the final iteration of the DT&I USRA DS boxcar
rebuilds, but even the three-foot rule won't help this model fool anyone.
There aren't any prototype matches for this model.
http://dti.railfan.net/Pototype_Images/rs/DTI_19028be.jpg


"The SS car is still listed on the website:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-2121 "

The SS car is more useful, but you'll need to do a lot of work to make a
credible model. The model resembles a number of 8 ft 7 in IH Howe truss SS
boxcars of the 1920 for many roads, the most common cars for the MILW:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/milwssboxmain.html
Other roads with similar include ATSF (ex-Clinton & Oklahoma Western), CN,
CV, G&F, KCS, LNE, L&A, Missouri & Arkansas, MP/I-GN, and RI, though all of
these cars have different ends and/or roofs than the model. Some of these
prototypes are available in resin from Sunshine and Funaro. Richard
Hendrickson kitbashed ATSF Class Bx-22 from this model during the 1980s; you
can catch a glimpse of it in a model freight consist article in the January
1990 Railmodel Journal. (Unfortunately, this model was stolen some time
ago.)

The biggest flaws of this model are the roof, which isn't a very convincing
model of either the Murphy XLA or Hutchins roof common to these cars; the
ends, especially the DS end or the 3/3/3 Dreadnaught end (the "braced end"
is salvageable), and the rehashed RI reefer underframe.

This model is currently most valuable as a "Tan Dot" stand-in to break up
the "sea of 10 ft 6 in steel boxcars" prevalent on many layouts. By doing
basic upgrades to this model (similar to what I did to the Walthers X29 in
my TKM series) with new paint and lettering, you can visually crate some
variety in your boxcar fleet and "stair step" in your trains until you've
built enough "Green Dot" single sheathed boxcar models from resin kits and
quality kitbashes.


Ben Hom

Experimental pressed sheet steel corrugated ends were around before
1910. NYC's first experimental use was 1912 and their first
production application of them was 1914.

This might not be clear to non-engineers, but the idea is not
necessarily to increase "strength" as to increase resiliency, or
IOW, the ability of the end to absorb the energy of impact of the
load shifting against its inside. By absorbing energy, the impact
event is spread out over time (e.g., from 0.1 sec to 0.25 sec),
resulting in a lower peak stress on the rivets that attach the ends
to the sides, roof and end sill, increasing the threshold at which
the end would tear away from its attachment. Also reducing the peak
bending stress within the end sheet itself, thereby increasing the
threshold at which the end would become permanently distorted. It's
all about controlling a high-energy event to minimize peak
stresses. Introducing the corrugations did increase "strength" by
making the material stiffer in the horizontal direction, but it also
gave the end the ability to stetch elastically in the vertical
direction. That elastic stretching gives the ability to absorb the
energy of the impact.

I suppose the amount of damage to the lading would be slightly
reduced as well, but that was not the primary objective.

Hope this helps -

Jeff English
Troy, New York


--- In STMFC@..., "Dean Payne" <deanpayne@n...> wrote:

A friend pointed to a photo and said "It can't be too early, it

has

corrugated ends", after which I told him corrugated ends were much
earlier than he thought. The USRA box cars had corrugated ends in
the late teens and... I guess I don't have a clear impression

beyond

that! When were the more common types introduced? I know that

only

the very last X29's had corrugated ends, but I don't think that

the

USRA cars introduced them, nor that the X29's were the last hurrah
for plate ends. I gotta admit, I find myself a bit puzzled about

the

advantage of corrugated over plate; I guess it's to add strength

when

a load shifts and clobbers the end due to braking or slack

action. I

think they tried corrugated sides on some gons, right? The sides
still got all beat up... and I don't remember seeing a photo of a
plate end car with dents indicating a need for the strength of a
corrugated end... I don't remember any corrugated end photos with
end damage, either.
Dean Payne

Dean Payne wrote:

I gotta admit, I find myself a bit puzzled about the
advantage of corrugated over plate; I guess it's to add strength when
a load shifts and clobbers the end due to braking or slack action. I
think they tried corrugated sides on some gons, right? The sides
still got all beat up... and I don't remember seeing a photo of a
plate end car with dents indicating a need for the strength of a
corrugated end... I don't remember any corrugated end photos with
end damage, either.

It's primarily stiffness, not strength, Dean; the strength depends on the thickness of the steel sheet, while the stiffness depends on the geometry of its arrangement. Think corrugated cardboard, which is really only heavy paper.
Oh yes, corrugated steel ends sure did get bulged and dented from the inside. There are numerous photos out there.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Railroad Prototype Modelers Seminar - East
Sponsored by Division 2, MCR-NMRA

1:00pm Friday, March 11 through 11:00pm Saturday, March 12, 2005
Registration will begin at 10:00am. Set up any time after 8:00am

Holiday Inn, Monroeville (Pittsburgh), PA, (Exit 57, PA Turnpike)
Our block of rooms at the Holiday Inn is full. 
There is a Hampton Inn next door 412-380-4000 and a Red Roof Inn nearby
412-856-4738

Layouts tours on Sunday March 13th:
1) North of Pittsburgh: Cassler, Schorr, and the W. PA Model Railroad
Museum.
2) East of Pittsburgh: Enrico, Flock, Prehoda, and Ward.
3) West of Pittsburgh: Lippert.

For more information contact:
Dick Flock
337 Elm Drive
Greensburg, PA 15601
Phone: 724-850-8882

Please include a self-addressed stamped envelope with your inquiries.

Registration Form Registration Fee: $30.00
Please make checks payable to: Dick Flock.
You can memo RPM East on the bottom of your check.

Name__________________________________________Email_________________

Address______________________________________________________________

City_________________________State_____Zip__________Ph._______________

Saturday Evening Buffet $25.00 Yes ____ No ____
Thursday Operating Session Yes____ No ____

Speakers and Topics:

Ralph Barger - B&O Heavyweight sleepers
Greg Condio - Using photo backgrounds (tentative)
Rob Enrico - PRR Mon Div O scale layout photos
Gerard Fitzgerald - RR water purification on the C&O and US RRs
Dick Flock - PRR flat cars
Tim Frederick - Modern Tank Car Design 101
Steve Funaro - Building resin kits (tentative)
John Greene - Milk on the PRR, Reading &CNJ
Ben Hom - Pennsylvania Railroad Class X29 Boxcars
Joe Jack - CR train and equipment photos
John Johnson - Modeling PRR gondolas
Larry Kline - Freightcar photos - Harrisburg PA in 1947
Tony Koester - A Context for Prototype Modeling
Dennis Lippert – The Basics of Diesel Detailing
Lance Mindheim - Modeling creeks, streams, and small waterways
John Roberts – Update on the C&O in O scale
Mike Rose - Late Production U18, Kitbashing & Weathering
Stan Rydarowicz - Wabash panel side hoppers
Neal Shorr - Modeling Stone Arch Bridges
Todd Sullivan - How to build a 12" to 1' Locomotive
Mont Switzer - Tools & Techniques
Roy Ward - Penn Central Train and Equipment Photos
John Wesner - When Box Cars Became Pretty

Schedule:

Friday ------   Room 1 Room 2
1:00 PM to 2:00 PM Kline Ward
2:30 PM to 3:30 PM Kline Johnson
4:00 PM to 5:00 PM Lippert Condio
Dinner 5:00 pm - 7:00 pm      
7:00 PM to 8:00 PM Flock Barger
8:30 PM to 9:30 PM Jack Greene
       
Saturday ------  Room Room 2
9:00 AM to 10:00 AM Fitzgerald Switzer
10:30 AM to 11:30 AM Sullivan Roberts
Lunch 11:30 am - 1:00 pm      
1:00 PM to 2:00 PM Frederick Mindheim
2:30 PM to to 3:30 PM Hom Schorr
4:00 PM 5:00 PM Rose Funaro
Dinner 5:00 pm - 7:00 pm      
7:00 PM to 8:00 PM Koester Rydarowicz
8:30 PM to 9:30 PM Enrico Wesner

Larry Kline



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Any thoughts on what these cars were/are supposed to represent? Pure
Walthers fantasy? I know, I know...why bother...but my curiosity just
got the better of me.

Stefan --
These are Walthers production of the old Train Miniature cars, AFAIK. As such, they were a godsend when first produced, as they offered different bodies from what small variety was then available; but they have a "composite/generic" design, so that all could use the same underframe and parts like ends, etc. could mixed and matched. Unfortunately in today's view, most of the permutations have no prototype and the ones that resemble something real are fairly crude by modern standards. I'd say these are junkers or for conversion to MOW use (with lotsa alteration) unless you use the "six-foot rule."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

A friend pointed to a photo and said "It can't be too early, it has
corrugated ends", after which I told him corrugated ends were much
earlier than he thought. The USRA box cars had corrugated ends in
the late teens and... I guess I don't have a clear impression beyond
that! When were the more common types introduced? I know that only
the very last X29's had corrugated ends, but I don't think that the
USRA cars introduced them, nor that the X29's were the last hurrah
for plate ends. I gotta admit, I find myself a bit puzzled about the
advantage of corrugated over plate; I guess it's to add strength when
a load shifts and clobbers the end due to braking or slack action. I
think they tried corrugated sides on some gons, right? The sides
still got all beat up... and I don't remember seeing a photo of a
plate end car with dents indicating a need for the strength of a
corrugated end... I don't remember any corrugated end photos with
end damage, either.
Dean Payne