Eldon Gatwood wrote:

I understand that the current opinion is that the Tichy
tank car is not really usable as-is, but that it can be
bashed into a Canadian war emergency car.

Could someone provide me with a direction to where the
info on this Canadian car (and perhaps a bashing article?)
exists?

Elden,

Many years ago Richard Hendrickson did an article on the
Canadian war emergency cars. Part 1 was on the history of
these cars - I believe it was published in an early issue
of Railmodel Journal, but I'd need to look it up in the
on-line railroad magazine index, the URL of which escapes
me at the moment.

Part 2 of the article was going to be about kitbashing these
cars from the Tichy kit, but AFAIK this was never published.
At least I've never been able to find it, and like you, I
could certainly use the info. I bought several of these kits
before the word got around that their prototype was only a
drawing that nothing was actually built from.

Maybe we could persuade Richard to drop the other shoe on this,
and post Part 2 in the STMFC files?

Shawn Beckert

This thread reminds me of our occasional discussions about the "Fowler" or "Dominion" car design. I was just yesterday rereading the fine article by R.W. Burnett (CP Master Car Builder) about the earliest single-sheathed (with inside sheathing) box car, which was clearly the one built by Canadian Pacific. At the meeting in question there were mechanical engineers from numerous roads present, and there was no dissent from the idea that CP had pioneered this idea, during the tenure of W.E. Fowler as CP Master Car Builder. There were earlier single-sheathed, steel-framed box cars, such as the ones built by Rock Island, but they had OUTSIDE sheathing.
The article also had printed discussion of the papers of the meeting, and the question was asked in the discussion whether there were any patents on the car design. The author replied that there were a few applicable patents, but "as far as he knew no one had ever paid any royalty on them, and he did not know of any important patents that covered construction of this type of car." This is relevant since we had discussed the significance of the Fowler patent on the slotted bolt slots to permit tightening of the sheathing, a problem presented by Mr. Burnett in describing problems with shrinkage and warping of sheathing on cars. Evidently this was not regarded as an "important" aspect of the car construction. Yet the position of Mr. Fowler at the time of the car's origin can be taken to justify attaching his name to this important car design.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., "Beckert, Shawn" <shawn.beckert@d...>
wrote:

Ed,

Thanks for the information. I would have thought the car was
several years older, due to the valve casing and platform size,
which look a lot like the Atlas pressure car details. Amazing
that these items didn't change much, if at all, over such a long
period of time.

Shawn Beckert

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Hawkins [mailto:hawk0621@s...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:47 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] WRNX 11427 - A Gulf "Survivor"




On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 03:35 PM, Beckert, Shawn wrote:

While the date of the photo - supposedly April 1970 - is
beyond the time limit of this list, the point is that it
shows a steam-era tank car pretty much in an "as-built"
condition many decades after it was built. Note that there
is no dome platform - I had thought most if not all tank
cars of this vintage had received full platforms by this
late period. Too bad the photo is blurred; I'd like to
know the built-date on this car.

Shawn,
The car was built as part of 400 cars built in 1956 by AC&F under

lot

number 4757. The series was 11188-11687, omitting cars ending with
either "0" or "5" as these cars had been previously assigned. They

were

11,000 gallon ICC 105A300W with simple side platforms. The cars

were

originally decorated with billboard "WARREN" graphics. A builder's
photo of WRNX 11192 shows the car was built 9-56.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Ed, I came across some old tank car shots that may be what you're

after. I know that there is at least one excellent color shot of a
10k gallon "Flying A" tank, built in 1923 in there, as of last
night. In fact, I've counted over 270 other shots in there of all
kinds of older cars, and cabooses. There is also a really neat, and
good quality set of about every kind of older freight car, caboose
and wrecker truck that you can think of. It's a fairly new group,
and still very quiet, but that will probably change soon too, like
everything else does. The group is called vintage-freight-cars-n-
crummys, and it's here on Yahoo also. Go check it out, the guy that
owns it has obviously been very busy adding new stuff about every
other day. A great collection, and I think it's well worth the time
and personal association. I had better add the link here too,
otherwise you may have the same problem finding it, as did I.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vintage-Freight-Cars-N-Crummys

Len Cannor
The Rutland: Route of the Whippets

Yahoo! Groups Links

The last time I bought kits at Naperville for later delivery, It took a
month or more to receive them. Martin is probably working day and night to
get your kits made<G>.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon


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List,

Kadee has posted their new releases for this month.
One of the new offerings is a 40' PS-1 lettered for
Canadian Pacific's "International Of Maine Division":

http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/4011l.htm

I must confess I've never heard of this part of the
CP. Was it a wholly owned subsidiary, like the GTW
or Soo Line or something?

Next question - a dumb one maybe, but I have to ask -
would these particular cars travel much beyond the
east coast, or were they used in some kind of captive
service? That stenciling by the door might give me a
clue, but it's just too small to make out in the photo.

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert

Ed,

Thanks for the feedback.

Since we have done this car in the plain "single line" paint scheme
(and Kadee has as well) I'm seriously considering offering it in the
"CP Script" -- which is shown in John Ridells' Morning Sun book on CP
Rolling Stock -- page 43. That particular car has a somewhat odd
5-panel door which doesn't look like any I've seen.

I'm trying to create a few runs of kits to support the limited interest
and demand we are getting for decorated kits. This particular paint
scheme is not a "done deal" but it has been requested by several of our
customers.

Marty


On Wednesday, November 17, 2004, at 12:42 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

On Wednesday, November 17, 2004, at 08:56  AM, Marty McGuirk wrote:

I'm working on a little project here and have run into conflicting
information on the end color of Canadian Pacific "IofME" 40-foot

PS-1s.

I see that Kadee's model has black ends and roof, but all the

prototype

shots I've seen of these cars indicate the roof and ends are "Boxcar
Red" --

Since I'm trying to make these as a short run of kits I'd like to get
them right.

Does anyone have firm evidence if the ends were indeed black

throughout

the lives of the cars?

Marty,
The answer to your last question is no. The roof and ends of CP cars in
Pullman-Standard lot number 8036C (268800-269099) and lot 8087
(269100-269599) originally came with black roofs and ends. Only the
sides were painted freight car red when built. I have researched data
at the Illinois Railway Museum that states this. There is a color photo
of CP 269038 from the lot 8036C group on page 127 of the Morning Sun
book New England Rails that confirms this.

Having said the above, repaints generally received ends painted freight
car red to match the sides. I don't know about the roofs on repainted
cars but I believe they were typically also repainted freight car red.
A color photo of repainted CP 269678 is shown in the Morning Sun book
Northern New England Color Guide on page 38 and this is probably
typical of CP's repainted PS-1s.

The earliest series of CP PS-1s, lot 5950, series 269600-269999, also
had black ends and roof as shown in the photo of 269608 available from
Bob's Photo. However, this series was built in 1949 and lacked the
"bow-tie" stiffeners on the far end panels on the roof. Thus, you would
probably want to avoid this series unless the roof was to be retooled
to remove the stiffeners.

All of CP's PS-1 had ends with the top and bottom end sheets riveted
together and short bolster tabs as seen on PS-1s built before 1954, two
features inconsistent with InterMountain's version of the 40'-6" PS-1
box car that has post-1954 wide bolster tabs and end panels welded
together.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I posed that very question a few years ago to a member of the CP SIG.
He suggested that current consenus was that Floquil boxcar red was
close enough to be acceptable. Oddly enough, Rich, it was your
brother!<G>
As far as the PS-1's go I remember seeing an article in RMC years ago
that suggested that those cars had black ends. I don't recall the
issue but it was a companion article on how to model CP boxcars using
the then newly available roofs and ends made by CRMPG. Now marketed
by Sylvan.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "Rich C" <richchrysler@q...> wrote:

For that matter, what is an acceptable "boxcar red" colour to use

for CPR cars? I'm presently building and painting 12 Westerfield
Fowler Dominion cars for a friend and nobody seems to have
a "standard" for this colour. I know they would fade, etc, but I'm
looking for a standard colour to at least start from. I've been
spraying Floquil Polyscale "Boxcar Red" but when hit with a clear
gloss for decaling the colour goes quite dark.

Rich Chrysler (yes it's spelled colour in the Queen's English)

<grin>

----- Original Message -----
From: Marty McGuirk
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 11:56 AM
Subject: [STMFC] CP boxcar end colors


Hello gang,

I'm working on a little project here and have run into

conflicting

information on the end color of Canadian Pacific "IofME" 40-foot

PS-1s.

I see that Kadee's model has black ends and roof, but all the

prototype

shots I've seen of these cars indicate the roof and ends

are "Boxcar

Red" --

Since I'm trying to make these as a short run of kits I'd like to

get

them right.

Does anyone have firm evidence if the ends were indeed black

throughout

the lives of the cars?

Thanks,

Marty

Hi tank car folks;

I understand that the current opinion is that the Tichy tank car is not
really usable as-is, but that it can be based into a Canadian war emergency
car.

Could someone provide me with a direction to where the info on this Canadian
car (and perhaps a bashing article?) exists?

Examining the tank and frame individually, both appear to be awfully close
to other cars. For instance, the frame looks like an early (pre-Type 21?)
AC&F tank car frame.

Has anyone used either as bashing material to build another car? Is the
horizontal-course tank usable to replicate an early tank car, or perhaps a
WW2 war emergency car by placing the tank on an alternate frame?

I would love to hear what you think!

Elden Gatwood

Rich,


I wouldn't mind hearing some input on this from the CP guys either . . . although I've tended to favor slightly more "bluish" dark Boxcar Red colors (I seem to recall the last CP car I painted I used Modelflex Dark Maroon Oxide Red. The photos of these cars I've seen indicate they seem to be toward the darker end of the BCR spectrum. In my case, that was a steel car. I believe the wood and composite cars tended to be a little redder.

I know the CN (and associated roads) used a very bright red oxide (CN Mineral Red #11) for the vast majority of their rolling stock, and the CN Lines SIG several years back came up with a "drift card" for this color that I've been using on the CN cars we've done here -- and I use the Scalecoat paint matched to that color for my CN/CV etc . . . models at home. That color is available from Modeflex as well . . .

But no such level of organization from the CP folks.

Marty

For that matter, what is an acceptable "boxcar red" colour to use for CPR cars? I'm presently building and painting 12 Westerfield Fowler Dominion cars for a friend and nobody seems to have a "standard" for this colour. I know they would fade, etc, but I'm looking for a standard colour to at least start from. I've been spraying Floquil Polyscale "Boxcar Red" but when hit with a clear gloss for decaling the colour goes quite dark.
Rich Chrysler (yes it's spelled colour in the Queen's English)<grin>

Does anyone have Martin Lofton's phone number? I used
to have it but have misplaced it. I want to ask him about
a bunch of kits I paid for at Naperville that were going
to be shipped to me. Thanks.

Tim O.

Hello gang,

I'm working on a little project here and have run into conflicting information on the end color of Canadian Pacific "IofME" 40-foot PS-1s.

I see that Kadee's model has black ends and roof, but all the prototype shots I've seen of these cars indicate the roof and ends are "Boxcar Red" --

Since I'm trying to make these as a short run of kits I'd like to get them right.

Does anyone have firm evidence if the ends were indeed black throughout the lives of the cars?

Thanks,

Marty

Chuck Yugkurth wrote:
"The plans for the gon being discussed were in one issue of the CBC.
The car has sides about 6 ft. high and was made in HO by Tyco (or
Mantua?) years ago."

[Disclaimer: All links are to the paid side of the RPI web site.]

Plans for this car appeared in the 1931 CBC, reprinted as TSC No.
46. The model is originally Lindberg, most recently offered by
Mantua in their "Heavies" line in several road names (including
Railgon!), but not Erie.
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/gons/Erie-gon-1925.jpg
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Kits/MDC-kits/MDC-Erie-
gon-vs-Mantua.jpg

Do not confuse this model with Tyco's 11 panel gon with Dreadnaught
ends, thought to be based on a crude drawing in a long-past issue of
RMC of a T&P gon.
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/gons/Tyco-gon-T&P.jpg


"About half of the cars owned by the Erie were rebuilt into True
quad hoppers by adding slope sheets and conventional hopper car bays
and doors on the bottom. From the side the car appears unchanged
except for the four hoppers extending below the car side."

Here's an equipment diagram and photo of the car in question:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Hoppers/Quads/HT-quad-ex-
gon-Erie-diagram.jpg
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/gons/Erie-gon-hopper-
Mischler.jpg


Ben Hom

The Walthers looks just like the old Train Miniature product I once owned, when I was in HO years ago; I bought it as a matter of local interest, having grown up in that part of New York State and actually consumed some of the output in my youth (although by the time I maximized consumption in college, the local product was Utica Club).
Jace Kahn
Mostly Fairbanks/GTT


.

File : /2004_1115ebay20023.JPG
Uploaded by : prrk41361 <prrk41361@...>
Description : Genesee Beer Car

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/2004_1115ebay20023.JPG

prrk41361 <prrk41361@...>

Subject: Genesee Brewing Reefer

I added a picture of the Walthers/TM car featuring the Genesee
Brewing car to the files section to followup on the discussion from
last week.

Bian carlson

_________________________________________________________________
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I have one of the old RailCraft metal cars in O scale (probably older than I am, which is saying quite a bit) that I have been holding off finishing, as the model has a solid bottom, and my understanding from the TSE reprints of the CBC is that the prototype had drop bottom doors. Are we talking about the same prototype here?
Jace Kahn
Mostly Fairbanks/GTT

Another camera-shy car was the ERIE's high side
gons, AFTER they were converted to hoppers . . .

I know Chuck Yungkurth would like to see them, too
. . .

SGL

I have enough photos and data to draw up the elevations and ends of the Erie
gons that were converted to quad hoppers.

What I am still seeking is the underbody plus brake component locations and
rigging.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO

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Rick wrote:

Scale Effect Painting
Additionally, are you familiar with
pre-shading"--another mil-mod technique? It is
painting lines of black or a very dark color along
seams, panel lines, rivet/weld lines and detail, so
that the color of the item is slightly darken over
these recessed/dirtied areas. I believe that it is
very valid upon rolling stock that are moving around
behind dirt and soot-generating locomotives.

I recently used this approach with what I consider to be great success on
the PRRPro X29 project. The ultimate easy approach was to use a black
fine tip Sharpie Brand marker to highlight the panel seams. I then
painted over it with 2 coats of FCC, followed by another scale effect
painting technique taught to me by Greg Martin. This is the use of
+red/+orange shading of panels. To do this, I used a post-it note on the
seam and first sprayed the +red color (in my case Poly Scale Special Oxide
Red) onto the note, with the overspray onto the panel. After doing one
side of each seam this way I did the other side of each seam with +orange
(Poly Scale Zinc Chromate). This results in the following:
FCC - +red |seam| +orange - FCC - +red |seam| +orange - FCC - +red etc...

You can see the intermediate and end results in the PRRPro files
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/files/X29%20Models/

And on my site for an X28:
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X28CRECo.jpg
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X28A120713L.JPG

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

The plans for the gon being discussed were in one issue of the CBC. the car
has sides about 6 ft. high and was made in HO by Tyco (or Mantua?) years ago.

About half of the cars owned by the Erie were rebuilt into True quad hoppers
by adding slope sheets and conventional hopper car bays and doors on the
bottom. From the side the car appears unchanged except for the four hoppers
extending below the car side.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO

Another camera-shy car was the ERIE's high side
gons, AFTER they were converted to hoppers . . .

I know Chuck Yungkurth would like to see them, too
. . .

SGL

Fred (or is it Rick?),

I suggest you obtain and read the article "Vintage-Dating Freight
Cars with Weathering" by Richard Hendrickson. It appeared in the December
1995 issue of RailModel Journal.
The article describes how freight cars weathered over time, and
how older cars would (obviously) have heavier weathering patterns than new
(or newly repainted) cars.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

What is the appropriate time period during which these cars would
have been seen operating in revenue service? This is assuming that
the model is appropriate as a Cudahy car.

I'm not sure which IM reefer is offered with Cudahy P/L, but it doesn't
matter because none of the IM cars models a prototype that was owned by or
leased to Cudahy. All cars owned by Cudahy were 36' reefers. In the 1950s
Patrick Cudahy (a different company) leased reefers from the Northern
Refrigerator Car Co. (a subsidiary of Merchants Despatch/New York Central)
but those cars were of MDT design and were different in many details from
the prototype cars modeled by IM.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520