Date   

Re: Kadde boxes, was BLI Hopper Mods

Andy Harman <andy10@...>
 

At 12:11 AM 7/14/2004 -0000, you wrote:
I have always wondered what this feature is good for. I think these
couplers have already enough play inside their box. Creating more
looks counterintuitive for me.
It must have some function in the delayed uncoupling process. Kadee
couplers are pretty interesting things when you start looking more closely
at them - like the asymetrical keystone shape of the #5 shank, the asymetry
of the spring plate itself, the slope on the box. That's another reason I
give 99% of my credibility to Kadee, and take a "show me" attitude with the
others. 40, 50 years of experience and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is
finally being challenged by the desire for a true scale appearing coupler.
Anybody can tool a coupler that looks good; to get even into the same
playing field as Kadee in terms of across the board performance is going to
take some time. I'll be patient, and in the mean time keep using Kadees.

Andy


Re: BLI Hopper Mods

Andy Harman <andy10@...>
 

At 07:48 PM 7/13/2004 -0400, you wrote:
I too like the Accumate scale coupler. I did not like the Accumate standard
coupler. All too often it would jam open. The narrow draft gear box on the
scale version seems to prevent this. Thus I see little downside to this
scale size, good looking coupler. The Kadee 58 has a noticeable gap between
the knuckle and the "fist", which is why I have stopped using them.
Actually this has been fixed. If you buy #58s in packaging printed with
black ink, instead of the red/orange, you'll get the newer ones. I can't
tell any difference in performance but the revised ones look much better.
The only thing that detracts from the appearance is the coil spring (which
is blackened, rather than bare copper), and the width of the draft gear. I
assume the #78 head has had, or will have, this modification. I have
already installed the earlier gap-jaw 58s on 30-40 pieces of rolling stock
but oh well - at least they corrected this early in the game. I really
want to use 78s on locomotives, especially those where I need to do some
reworking of the pilot anyway.

Andy


TP boxcar

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/tp70317asw.jpg



What, no wood grain? Where are the horizontal grooves so nicely replicated
by Evergreen?



Dave Nelson


Couplers (was BLI Hopper Mods)

Don Strack <donstrack@...>
 

Denny Anspach wrote:

Without looking at the BLI hopper cars, I would have no idea what the
circumstances might be, but is adapting the Accumate Proto couplers a
viable option (i.e. will the A-P box nestle inside the BLI box?)?
The advantages would be a) superior appearance, and b) reliability
(the close-tolerance engineered integral design of the A-P coupler
shanks within the confines of its coupler box prevents the couplers
from "twisting" out, and the absence of draft angles mitigates any
uncoupling caused by the strain of a long train).
The Accumate Proto coupler may have superior appearance, and I agree, it
does, but my problem is that I can't drop one directly into an "Athearn" or
Kadee No. 5 box, or any similar box designed to accept the standard NMRA
horn-hook, or Kadee No. 5 coupler. The instructions say so, but I must be
too stupid to figure out how tom do it without affecting the overall
appearance, or the operation of the coupler. I've tried on several models,
but short of machining a completely new flat mounting pad, I'm stuck with a
Kadee No. 58, which I hate because of that ugly knuckle hanging out there,
with its ugly gap out front. I've decided on the new McHenry scale coupler -
it's a drop-in, and looks great.

For a new installation, or in my recent case, when I have to create a new
center sill, like on the Marklin/Trix UP caboose, then an Accumate Proto is
fine, and I've used them. But...

Denny, you and I and Jimmy and Andy sat at the same table while J.P. showed
us all his new design in Stockton in March, and even he said that he was
stuck with the "NMRA" box design. Mostly because he wants a direct drop-in
coupler, or one that will be an easy sell for OEM.

Don Strack


Re: CV SS auto box 41000 series decals

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Marty McGuirk wrote:
"The lettering you are looking for is not available from anyone to
the best of my knowledge. Simply cutting apart the lettering on the
decals (or transfers) won't work since the as-delivered lettering
with the name Central Vermont was an extended Roman type font, not
Gothic as on the stacked lettering.

As I said, I'm sure I'll be agreed with and called incorrect very
shortly. . ."

I agree with Marty. With apologies to Dean, I misundertood his
question. I could find only one lettering set contemporary to the
style that you're looking for is Clover House 7198-02, a lettering
set for a CV milk car c. 1925 with the spelled out "Central Vermont"
roadname. Unfortunately, the colors of the set are black and green.


Ben Hom


Re: Dummy pilot couplers

Kert Peterson <kertp@...>
 

On 7/12/2004, Tim O'Connor, responding to Andy Miller, wrote:

Ugh!! You would ruin the appearance of a steam locomotive with
a wide, way out of scale coupler pocket opening? No, thanks! I
think all steam locomotives (and freight cars for that matter)
should be made to accept scale size draft gear or at least be
easily convertible to scale size. If people don't demand better
couplers and draft gear, the manufacturers will never build 'em
that way.
Tim,

I also asked the folks at Precision Scale Co. why they built such a gorgeous N&W M2 locomotive that did not include a working front coupler. I was told that they (i.e., PSC) make an operating scale coupler that can be fitted to the front of their brass locomotives. Part number is: HO-32048. Since it is listed as an "AAR Common Standard Full Working Coupler", I wonder if these would work on freight cars as well (I didn't think to ask at the time). Have you, or anyone else on the list, tried to fit these couplers to locomotives and/or cars? What are they compatible with (as far as coupling)?

Personally, I like the ProtoAccumates for my freight cars, but would love to find an operating front coupler for my brass steam locomotives, especially a scale-size operating coupler.

Cheers,
Kert Peterson
Fircrest, WA
kertp@...

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell


Helium Car Underframe

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Just loaded the picture to the photo site in the files section.
--
Brian Ehni


Re: BLI Hopper Mods

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

The Kadee 58 has a noticeable gap between
the knuckle and the "fist", which is why I have stopped using them.<
Remember "never say never", if you notice there isn't a gap anymore on
the latest versions of the 58.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Kadde boxes, was BLI Hopper Mods

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., Andy Harman <andy10@g...> wrote:
...
By the time I was regularly
using Kadees (1969-70) the problem had been solved and the Kadee "5
and 10"
would fit most Athearn rolling stock. That design did change
though - the
boxes were made slightly shorter at some point. I'm not sure when
the
bevel on the edge of the box came about, but I'm quite certain I
can find
Kadee "5 and 10" boxes from the 1970s and they are different,
however
slightly, from the current ones.
I assume you are refering to the triangular portion of Kadee's
coupler box bottom part that makes it wider at the bottom?

I have always wondered what this feature is good for. I think these
couplers have already enough play inside their box. Creating more
looks counterintuitive for me.

Manfred
Bonn


Re: BLI Hopper Mods

Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
 

Denny,

I too like the Accumate scale coupler. I did not like the Accumate standard
coupler. All too often it would jam open. The narrow draft gear box on the
scale version seems to prevent this. Thus I see little downside to this
scale size, good looking coupler. The Kadee 58 has a noticeable gap between
the knuckle and the "fist", which is why I have stopped using them.

When no draft gear box is provided, the Accumate scale coupler has become my
coupler of choice.

Regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: Denny Anspach [mailto:danspach@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] BLI Hopper Mods


Andy Miller feels that all coupler boxes should be made to fit Kadee
couplers (and clones).

As a general statement for Kadee-size couplers, and as a practical
matter, Andy is exactly right. However, Accumate Proto scale-sized
couplers use a scale-sized (much smaller) coupler box that is both
integral to the coupler (a true distinction), and moreover, it has a
superior appearance.
. . .


Re: BLI Hopper Mods

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Denny Anspach <danspach@...>:

Andy Miller feels that all coupler boxes should be made to fit Kadee
couplers (and clones).

As a general statement for Kadee-size couplers, and as a practical
matter, Andy is exactly right.

This may depend on which Kadee coupler box one desires. I can't even
recall the number of what I believe may have been the first Kadee coupler box.
This was the one with the small pin that fit into a slot in the coupler shank
that, in turn, had two springs with round inserts inside them that were
installed fore and aft of said pin. Even a young buck like you, Denny, should
remember that one (-: but may have overlooked it in your post.

Next we had the box for the standard #5. Now we have a more prototypical box
for the more prototypically shanked version of the #58, which IIRC is the #78.
Frankly, I'd just as soon see the new box for the smaller Kadee coupler become
the "standard". And as for those who complain about using a Kadee #5 on the
front of a steam locomotive I have a suggestion. Junk the Kadee box, cut the
coupler shank at the rearmost end of the square middle section, drill and tap
it for a 1 mm screw, or only the pin that holds the dummy coupler in the
coupler pocket of most brass imports and substitute the coupler with the
modified for the dummy brass one that probably came on the model. I've done
that for nearly forty years and have always been happy with both the visual and
operational results.

Don Valentine


Re: Accurail triple hopper

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

Cool, I can use these.. I'm pretty sure NKP had this car or something
nearly identical which remained in service on the N&W into the 70s.
N&W classes H-42 and 43, 278000-280999, 3000 cars built for NKP by
Greenville and Ralston in 1947-48. There were still ~1800 left on the
roster in 1975 but they were on their way out by then.

N&W H-44, 234000-234499, 500 cars built for NKP by Bethelehem in 1964,
was a similar but larger design that lasted into the late 1980s. There's
no good starting point for these.

David Thompson


Re: BLI Hopper Mods

Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc. <elden.gatwood@...>
 

Folks;
Our reviews of BLI products that have appeared in TKM have not been like
those in MR or other print mags. We have devoted considerable space to
fixes and commentaries (we'd have done more of them, but there is not enough
staff or time in the day to do so). We have also repeatedly offered to work
with BLI on all PRR projects. Unlike some others, BLI has opted to continue
down a fast-track path utilizing its own unknown research, which seems to
have often resulted in issues that don't even maintain consistency in the
general nature of errors! DGLE paint, lettering colors, details, couplers,
decoder issues, and other features seem to vary willy-nilly with each
successive product. While some are ecstatic about the availability of these
products, it seems that it might be possible to slow down enough to iron out
some of the issues before they go into production.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Harman [mailto:andy10@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:34 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] BLI Hopper Mods

At 01:13 PM 7/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
Andy Miller feels that all coupler boxes should be made to fit Kadee
couplers (and clones).
Andy Harman feels the same way, until there is an established, reliable,
solid scale coupler and draft gear standard.

As a general statement for Kadee-size couplers, and as a practical
matter, Andy is exactly right. However, Accumate Proto scale-sized
couplers use a scale-sized (much smaller) coupler box that is both
integral to the coupler (a true distinction), and moreover, it has a
superior appearance.
I'm not convinced it will perform at the same level as a Kadee 58. I don't
even care about magnetic uncoupling, just coupling and staying coupled, and
not breaking or fatiguing. The large head Accumate - which is normally
provided with Atlas RTR rolling stock, has the distinction of being the
least evil of the clones. I still replace them when the cars cross the
bench for weathering or any other work.

Without looking at the BLI hopper cars, I would have no idea what the
circumstances might be, but is adapting the Accumate Proto couplers a
viable option (i.e. will the A-P box nestle inside the BLI box?)?
Not without removing material inside the box, which I'm already doing to
fit the 5/58 style spring plate in place.

The advantages would be a) superior appearance, and b) reliability
(the close-tolerance engineered integral design of the A-P coupler
shanks within the confines of its coupler box prevents the couplers
from "twisting" out, and the absence of draft angles mitigates any
uncoupling caused by the strain of a long train).
I have two of the Genesis Trinity hoppers that came with this coupler. I
haven't had them on the track yet. The car is too new for even my most
modern modeling period.

BTW, the "Kadee coupler box" should be instead referred to as the
"Athearn coupler box". In 1959 when Kadee first came out with its
magnetic couplers, Athearn had flooded the market with its
inexpensive injected molded cars, and had in many way become the de
facto mass market standard. Kadee simply then designed its couplers
to adapt to the "Athearn coupler box".
This is true, although I remember Kadee spring plates that were too wide to
fit Athearn coupler boxes in the mid 1960s. By the time I was regularly
using Kadees (1969-70) the problem had been solved and the Kadee "5 and 10"
would fit most Athearn rolling stock. That design did change though - the
boxes were made slightly shorter at some point. I'm not sure when the
bevel on the edge of the box came about, but I'm quite certain I can find
Kadee "5 and 10" boxes from the 1970s and they are different, however
slightly, from the current ones.

A fool and his money are soon parted. BlI is a work-in-progress. I am
ever more convinced that they are aiming for a new HO "toy train"
mass market with products that far too often with scrutiny do not
stand up well to the critical assessment by the serious scale
modelers or operator. That the magazines give these products
universal soft ball reviews is cautionary for all of us- on several
levels.
Soft ball reviews, and huge multi-page centerfold ads coinciding with being
named Gods-gift-to-whoever in the popularity contest. Being less
knowledgeable about steam overall, the mess BLI has made of their few
diesels so far is very telling. I am very glad I didn't rush out to sell
my Overland J1 Hudsons. I had higher hopes for the hoppers.

Oh BTW, this is obvious as well as exaggerated in the photos on my web site
- but you can see that the BLI H-2a hoppers aren't black. They are
gray. Kind of a bluish gray. Weathering cleans it all up, and without the
digital flash it's not that harsh -- but I'm wondering if the complaint
about the 3700 4-8-4 is this shade of gray, or worse (haven't seen one
yet). PRR DGLE I can expect to be screwed up. But black is black.

Andy






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Re: CV SS auto box 41000 series decals

Marty McGuirk <mac@...>
 

Although it's bound to upset someone I'll go ahead and answer this . . .

Dean,

the C-
D-S dry transfers aren't all that different from the lettering in the kits -- I simply
prefer to use dry transfers. I will say I think the "stacked" lettering dry transfers
seem to look better on the car -- the letters on the decals seem a little too
narrow to my eye. Again, I'm always wrong so take it for what it's worth . . .

Ben is correct, CDS offers transfers for both the 40XXX and 41,42 and 43XXX
series cars as two different stock numbers but the lettering is the same
"stacked" lettering. The main difference is the overall width of the road name
(and the numbers, of course!) -- the panel on the 40XXX cars is wider so the
lettering is slightly wider.

The lettering you are looking for is not available from anyone to the best of my
knowledge. Simply cutting apart the lettering on the decals (or transfers) won't
work since the as-delivered lettering with the name Central Vermont was an
extended Roman type font, not Gothic as on the stacked lettering.

As I said, I'm sure I'll be agreed with and called incorrect very shortly. . . .

Marty


--- In STMFC@..., "Dean Payne" <deanpayne@a...> wrote:
Do those transfers differ from the supplied ones? I saw a CV
single-
door (by Marty McGuirk) on the SteamFreightCars site that had the
CDS
transfers, and did not appear to be much different from that offered
by F&C with their kit.


Re: BLI Hopper Mods

Andy Harman <andy10@...>
 

At 01:13 PM 7/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
Andy Miller feels that all coupler boxes should be made to fit Kadee
couplers (and clones).
Andy Harman feels the same way, until there is an established, reliable, solid scale coupler and draft gear standard.

As a general statement for Kadee-size couplers, and as a practical
matter, Andy is exactly right. However, Accumate Proto scale-sized
couplers use a scale-sized (much smaller) coupler box that is both
integral to the coupler (a true distinction), and moreover, it has a
superior appearance.
I'm not convinced it will perform at the same level as a Kadee 58. I don't even care about magnetic uncoupling, just coupling and staying coupled, and not breaking or fatiguing. The large head Accumate - which is normally provided with Atlas RTR rolling stock, has the distinction of being the least evil of the clones. I still replace them when the cars cross the bench for weathering or any other work.

Without looking at the BLI hopper cars, I would have no idea what the
circumstances might be, but is adapting the Accumate Proto couplers a
viable option (i.e. will the A-P box nestle inside the BLI box?)?
Not without removing material inside the box, which I'm already doing to fit the 5/58 style spring plate in place.

The advantages would be a) superior appearance, and b) reliability
(the close-tolerance engineered integral design of the A-P coupler
shanks within the confines of its coupler box prevents the couplers
from "twisting" out, and the absence of draft angles mitigates any
uncoupling caused by the strain of a long train).
I have two of the Genesis Trinity hoppers that came with this coupler. I haven't had them on the track yet. The car is too new for even my most modern modeling period.

BTW, the "Kadee coupler box" should be instead referred to as the
"Athearn coupler box". In 1959 when Kadee first came out with its
magnetic couplers, Athearn had flooded the market with its
inexpensive injected molded cars, and had in many way become the de
facto mass market standard. Kadee simply then designed its couplers
to adapt to the "Athearn coupler box".
This is true, although I remember Kadee spring plates that were too wide to fit Athearn coupler boxes in the mid 1960s. By the time I was regularly using Kadees (1969-70) the problem had been solved and the Kadee "5 and 10" would fit most Athearn rolling stock. That design did change though - the boxes were made slightly shorter at some point. I'm not sure when the bevel on the edge of the box came about, but I'm quite certain I can find Kadee "5 and 10" boxes from the 1970s and they are different, however slightly, from the current ones.

A fool and his money are soon parted. BlI is a work-in-progress. I am
ever more convinced that they are aiming for a new HO "toy train"
mass market with products that far too often with scrutiny do not
stand up well to the critical assessment by the serious scale
modelers or operator. That the magazines give these products
universal soft ball reviews is cautionary for all of us- on several
levels.
Soft ball reviews, and huge multi-page centerfold ads coinciding with being named Gods-gift-to-whoever in the popularity contest. Being less knowledgeable about steam overall, the mess BLI has made of their few diesels so far is very telling. I am very glad I didn't rush out to sell my Overland J1 Hudsons. I had higher hopes for the hoppers.

Oh BTW, this is obvious as well as exaggerated in the photos on my web site - but you can see that the BLI H-2a hoppers aren't black. They are gray. Kind of a bluish gray. Weathering cleans it all up, and without the digital flash it's not that harsh -- but I'm wondering if the complaint about the 3700 4-8-4 is this shade of gray, or worse (haven't seen one yet). PRR DGLE I can expect to be screwed up. But black is black.

Andy


Re: Ulrich GS Gondolas Update

Dean Payne <deanpayne@...>
 

Their web site says it should be available "sometime in 2003." (!)
But, I expect you know that already. Is this model any different
from the Red Caboose GS gondola?
The Ulrich site says "The Pacific Electric car has been added. Please
indicate your support for this car to keep it scheduled.."
You can contact them directly to ask questions (or to indicate your
support) at:
CustomerService@...

Dean Payne

--- In STMFC@..., donstrack@c... wrote:
Does anyone have an update on the status of the Ulrich GS gondola
re-release?

Don Strack


Re: BLI Hopper Mods

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Andy Miller feels that all coupler boxes should be made to fit Kadee couplers (and clones).

As a general statement for Kadee-size couplers, and as a practical matter, Andy is exactly right. However, Accumate Proto scale-sized couplers use a scale-sized (much smaller) coupler box that is both integral to the coupler (a true distinction), and moreover, it has a superior appearance.

Without looking at the BLI hopper cars, I would have no idea what the circumstances might be, but is adapting the Accumate Proto couplers a viable option (i.e. will the A-P box nestle inside the BLI box?)? The advantages would be a) superior appearance, and b) reliability (the close-tolerance engineered integral design of the A-P coupler shanks within the confines of its coupler box prevents the couplers from "twisting" out, and the absence of draft angles mitigates any uncoupling caused by the strain of a long train).

BTW, the "Kadee coupler box" should be instead referred to as the "Athearn coupler box". In 1959 when Kadee first came out with its magnetic couplers, Athearn had flooded the market with its inexpensive injected molded cars, and had in many way become the de facto mass market standard. Kadee simply then designed its couplers to adapt to the "Athearn coupler box". In the years then and since, although Kadee has been notorious for its coupler fastidious quality control, the coupler box dimensions have been subject to no control whatsoever- as any experienced modeler can attest.

A fool and his money are soon parted. BlI is a work-in-progress. I am ever more convinced that they are aiming for a new HO "toy train" mass market with products that far too often with scrutiny do not stand up well to the critical assessment by the serious scale modelers or operator. That the magazines give these products universal soft ball reviews is cautionary for all of us- on several levels.

I have purchased five of their products. One of which I have since sold still-in-box, another is a profound disappointment- but is essentially un-sellable; a third is awaiting a buyer (still in box); the fourth awaits its fate- also still in box; and the fifth is a five-foot-distance "demonstration" steam engine that impresses the occasional casual visitor.

At the moment, Caveat Emptor.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: Accurail triple hopper

Andy Harman <andy10@...>
 

At 05:12 PM 7/13/2004 +0000, you wrote:
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7500.htm

It's far more akin to the Stewart 70-ton offset triple with the long
taper, but much improved as Accurail is touting the following
features:
Cool, I can use these.. I'm pretty sure NKP had this car or something nearly identical which remained in service on the N&W into the 70s.

Andy


Re: Accurail triple hopper

Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc. <elden.gatwood@...>
 

Shawn:

I can second that. Large numbers of B&O, NYC and P&LE triples were
interchanged and ended up all over the east; perhaps even a few out west.
End users required very different raw materials, and the originating road
couldn't deliver everywhere. In my area is wasn't uncommon to see at least
a third foreign road hoppers on the PRR, sometimes more. An ATSF or CB&Q
hopper was unusual, but not unheard of.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:05 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Accurail triple hopper


On Jul 13, 2004, at 1:37 PM, Shawn wrote:
It's been my impression that 70-ton hoppers - such as the Accurail
and Stewart cars represent - were much like cement hoppers in that
they didn't go off-line very often, and when they did it wasn't far.

Was this actually the case?
No, not exactly (depends on how you define "far")

Does anyone have photographic evidence
that these cars were interchanged between roads very much?
Yes

Don't get
me wrong, I'd love to have a few "foreign" hoppers in my consists,
but from an SSW point of view I've never seen more than T&NO 4400's
and a few Missouri Pacific open-top hoppers in Cotton Belt trains.
Well, its no our fault you chose to model that road <G> The
interchange of coal hoppers is entirely dependent on WHERE you model.
Backwoods N&W or C&O branch and you've got 99% home road cars. You've
not got much call to interchange additional hoppers on your road
either. BUT if you model a main line like the PRR, you have a
wonderful mix of regional cars, totaling 25% or so of the hoppers seen.
Of course, you still won't get trans-national cars (I don't plan on
too many UP or AT&SF hoppers <G>). Commonly seen roadnames on the PRR
included B&O, C&O, N&W (yes, N&W), B&LE, P&LE, Reading, D&H, NYC...

Unfortunately for me, it looks like I probably want the earlier short
taper cars rather than the Accurail car.

BTW, there should be loads in the archives on this. Especially the
oddball examples of specialized coal (usually metallurgical) getting
shipped all over the country.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
<http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/>

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
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Re: Erie "Fowler" box car herald color

Len Allman <allmansipe@...>
 

Black and white sounds correct.The yellow diamonds
were primarily used on tenders.

Keep smilin'
Len Allman




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