Don Valentine wrote:
Are you suggesting that the floor was installed after the car was
painted so the bottom of the floor should be a different color?

Actually, it's all John Spencer's fault. Most of us ignored this
until he showed that damned Southern boxcar of his... ;-)


Ben Hom

I just went down and looked at the railroad--there are lots of Athearn cars,
still, but as well, plenty of RC, IMW, Sunshine, Westerfield, F&C, and
scratchbuilt cars, almost all different--and you can tell. For example an Aathearn
car with a stock roofwalk, next to one that had had its stock roofwalk thinned
down, or replaced with an etched metal one. Now during an op session like last
night where maybe thirty trains of all types ran, with all this different
equipment, nobody pays much attention to this-the important things to look at are
the car reporting marks, and whether they match the waybill. But, if you're
watching, the small differences are still obvious.
Jim Dalberg

George Walls asked:
Can someone suggest a good starting point for a PFE BR-1 Express
Reefer? How close is the MDC express reefer?


Not very - the model is too low and the roof curvature doesn't
match. (BTW, its prototype is a Lehigh Valley milk car, an
unexpected boon for Lehigh Valley modelers everywhere! ;-) A better
starting point is the Athearn express reefer, though its roof is
curved a little too much. You'll need to add icing platforms,
replace the trucks with 8 ft wheelbase trucks (the 6 ft wheelbase
trucks in the kit makes the car look like its riding on old roller
skates), and cut down the fishbelly so it isn't as deep. For more
details, see "PFE's Ice Reefers: Operations and Express Cars" by Tony
Thompson in the April 1987 Railroad Model Craftsman.

Here's a prototype photo of one on pay side of the RPI website:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Reefers/50-foot/Reefers-
50-ft-express-PFE-1951-Whittaker.jpg


Ben Hom

I too liked the Varney ads, which were on almost all the MR's my dad had in the garage from the early 50's. They made a 4-6-0 look big... and a 4-6-0 IS big, compared to a person. Maybe the moral re the Varney freight cars is, with accurate well-detailed kits available today you don't have to build "Frontierland" around them to make them look neat! Or something.

Scott Pitzer (Hey, how about a G&D tourist line! Did B&O save a Dockside 0-4-0? Take it out west and run it among cacti...)


Tim O'Connor wrote:
John Allen, and a fellow named Paul (something or other) introduced
my young mind to realistic modeling with regard to weathering.

And I loved those
ads he did for Varney freight car models.

In a message dated 7/8/2003 10:10:18 AM Central Daylight Time,
smithbf@... writes:

Obviously, weather soon
had its effect, and in house repaintings of the underbody might not have
been as neat.

I've got to believe that no railroad shop foreman allowed his painters to
fuss around with masking off the steel & wood underframe parts separately on
repainted cars! So, that would mean that any repainted car would come no closer
than severe overspray on the wood flooring.

Tom Casey

I'd like to apologize for dropping the hammer on Jerry Stewart
regarding his post on Pennsy stockcars. Jerry is most definitely
part of the solution when it comes to providing manufacturers with
the information to "get the models right," and his efforts with Kato
and Life-Like have directly resulted in some of the quality models
that we enjoy today.


Ben Hom

I should clarify that Mike and Ted's jigs were for bending grab
irons rather than steps, but the general concept would work well for
steps as well.

Pieter

John Allen, and a fellow named Paul (something or other) introduced
my young mind to realistic modeling with regard to weathering. (The
other guy modeled SP steam engines and MR often carried pictures of
them, always nicely streaked and dirty and gray.) I never thought
Allen was trying to be "cute"... well, ok, sometimes he was. Like
when he harnessed a Stegosaurus to a freight car. And I loved those
ads he did for Varney freight car models.

The Gorre & Daphetid is the "poster child" of non-prototype model
railroading. It was hugely influential and spawned a whole separate genre of "cute"
model railroading that is quite distinct from what is considered interesting by
most of the writers here. I suspect that genre is discussed on other lists but
I think the premise of this list is toward prototype knowledge of steam era
freight cars, and unstinting accuracy in models of same.

Chris Barkan

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Group,

Last month there was some discussion of Frisco troop sleepers, and
the subject of the MKT troop sleeper in Ft. Smith, Ark. came up. I
was recently in Ft. Smith and shot several photos of this car. If
anyone is interested, I will post them to the files section of the
website and/or email interested parties.

Richard Keim

Ed Mines asked:
Did anyone ever try to use office staples as stirrup steps? I've
been unable to match the sharpness of the bend (it would work great
if 2 sharp, matching bends could be made).

To add to Pieter's recommendations, Micro-Mark once made a steel
bending jig that doubles as a detail removal chisel. Can't find it
in the on-line catalog, though.

The heating/quenching method works really well - watch that open
flame around flammables at the workbench! A resistance soldering
tool works real well too.


Ben Hom

OK...

Take a look at the following photos:
A train of boxcar models by Randy Anderson and Bill Welch: > Bennington

Yard.jpg")

Both photos are taken at a distance, but as Ted Culotta pointed out,
you can see the differences in boxcar heights, even though they are
in the scale 6 inches to 1 foot range.

You're not "eyeballing" the now-infamous HO 6", but you're certainly seeing
the result of the difference in a line of cars, which is real and does have
an impact. Same with grabs, ya can't tell the difference so much as tell the
effect of the difference on the "look" of the car. If it were a lineup of a
gon and a boxcar and a hopper, it would be hard to tell that the boxcar was,
say a 10'6" inside height car subbing for a 10'0" car. Put an X29, a 1932
10'0", and a 1937 10'6" side by side, and you can see it. Also, if the
dimensions are off, say in length, by 1/16 of inch, it could begin to affect
the proportions of the car. But, that being said, there is no way that one
should NOT go for the most accurate car if at all possible!

On a layout during an op session (which is what I like to do and is my
standard of reference) you aren't going to notice the cars that much, but
that doesn't preclude you from trying to get them as correct as possible.
That's one reason I have mostly resin gondolas for the fleet augmented by
the few plastic kits that are correct (now, if I could only make them look
like they all didn't just come from the car shops..). As for modelbuilders,
building for the joy of building and craftsmanship, obviously the joy is in
the accurate rendering.

Bottom line is, well, let's go for the most accurate car we can get, taking
stand-ins where neccessary (my Stewart channel sides and Mike Brock's UP
h-whatevers from Trix). Now, how to make those early W&LE covered hoppers...

Have a nice day.

Charlie Tapper

Ed,
Try one of the office supply stores. There are staples in every size
and length you could think of.

George


--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:

Did anyone ever try to use office staples as stirrup steps? I've

been

unable to match the sharpness of the bend (it would work great if

2

sharp, matching bends could be made).

Anyone know where and if you can that staple wire in flat lengths?

A line steps are too U shaped; they bow out. To me they look very
unrealistic. The cast plastic ones are, shall we say, a little
fragile. A company Tuttle offered pretty good aluminium steps.

Bob Weaver (Qualitycraft)included some very straight flat wire

that

would snap if bent more than once. When I mentioned that to him he
said only bend it once, pulled out a length and bent it exactly on
the first try (I guess practice makes perfect). Many expertly
assembled Q'Craft kits were displayed in his factory. Those that

used

screening as roofwalks were quite a challenge to me. All his wood

was

well sealed too.

Remember those staples Mainline used to include in their kits as
stirrup steps (sorry I can't think of the proper name, I'm a
work).When I was a salesman I once came across a company that sold
staples. I asked them "what are these staples used for?". For
stapling the linings in caskets. The smallest amount you could buy
would be a lifetime supply for an army.

Ed Mines

I have used office type staples before, I didn't find a problem with
the sharpness of the bend if using a decent set of small pliers to
make it. Detail Associates sells various sizes of flat brass strip
that can be used to bend steps as well, a jig similiar to the ones
shown by Mike Rose and Ted Cullota in RMC would work well fro making
accurate steps in one try, or you can heat the wire until cherry red
and let it cool to soften it. I haven't tried that last bit
personally.

Pieter

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:

Did anyone ever try to use office staples as stirrup steps? I've

been

unable to match the sharpness of the bend (it would work great if

2

sharp, matching bends could be made).

Anyone know where and if you can that staple wire in flat lengths?

A line steps are too U shaped; they bow out. To me they look very
unrealistic. The cast plastic ones are, shall we say, a little
fragile. A company Tuttle offered pretty good aluminium steps.

<SNIP>

Hi Folks,
I am posting this message again as I got no responce before.

Can someone suggest a good starting point for a PFE BR-1 Express
Reefer. How close is the MDC express reefer?

Thanks,
George WAlls

Bruce Smith wrote

Builders photos show unpainted boards when viewing the bottom of the car.
One in the RP Cyc articles on painting boxcars (IIRC) comes to mind
immediately. This is a detail seldom modeled, but one I have thought to
try as well. One particularly obvious place to attempt this would be on
flat cars, where the last thing added, often after painting, was the deck.
My Sunshine PRR F30A might be a good candidate! Obviously, weather soon
had its effect, and in house repaintings of the underbody might not have
been as neat.

I agree with that. Floors were installed in steel box cars after the
car structure was built -- just look at the many available shots of
outdoor "kit" construction of box cars by midwestern & western roads.
The wood interior sheathing and floors were added after the steel had
been painted (primed at least) inside and out. I don't know if this
was true of wood sheathed cars.

Flat car decks were usually replaced during the cars' lifetime. Was
this true of box car floors? I have seen gondolas with unpainted floors
too, but I don't know if this was universal or not. Only a brand new
floor would be clean anyway.

I agree the underside of floors got plenty dirty but you can tell the
difference, even on a weathered model floor.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Did anyone ever try to use office staples as stirrup steps? I've been
unable to match the sharpness of the bend (it would work great if 2
sharp, matching bends could be made).

Anyone know where and if you can that staple wire in flat lengths?

A line steps are too U shaped; they bow out. To me they look very
unrealistic. The cast plastic ones are, shall we say, a little
fragile. A company Tuttle offered pretty good aluminium steps.

Bob Weaver (Qualitycraft)included some very straight flat wire that
would snap if bent more than once. When I mentioned that to him he
said only bend it once, pulled out a length and bent it exactly on
the first try (I guess practice makes perfect). Many expertly
assembled Q'Craft kits were displayed in his factory. Those that used
screening as roofwalks were quite a challenge to me. All his wood was
well sealed too.

Remember those staples Mainline used to include in their kits as
stirrup steps (sorry I can't think of the proper name, I'm a
work).When I was a salesman I once came across a company that sold
staples. I asked them "what are these staples used for?". For
stapling the linings in caskets. The smallest amount you could buy
would be a lifetime supply for an army.

Ed Mines

At 08:11 AM 7/8/2003, Mike Looney wrote:

...Just take a look at the old G&D of John Allen he didn't give a damn about rivets or any of that wasted time, he made a layout that would look good, and that people would like...
...The one thing that anyone will remember is not a single car on a layout, but they will remember the layout if it is good, and it show something that will bring people to talk about it. The paint jobs that were done on John Allen model would make all of you cry, because it wasn't done to what you think it should be, but no one remember that they remember the layout and the bridges, and the mountains that ran from the floor up, and the building with the use of mirror, and the detail that he put into his layout. I have never heard of anyone giving more detail to a piece of rolling stock then to the detail that goes into a layout. The biggest thing that turn people away from a layout is not the engine or the rolling stock, or the passenger trains, they can all look great, but if the detail is not in the layout, it is all a waste, it just like having a model sitting on a shelf wasting space...

Mike,

I had an engineering professor who used to use John Allen's bridges as examples of how NOT to build bridges in the real world. John's bridges looked wonderful, but to an engineer, they were disasters. So, I guess each person looks at a layout differently, and for different things. Incidentally, in case it is of concern to you, that particular professor is well published in the model railroad press with quite a number of articles on layouts that he has built over the years. And my understanding from those who did visit and run on John's layout, is that he did care about the fidelity of his models and his layout, especially trackwork. But he also ran a freelance model railroad, so what prototype would he have modeled his rivets after?

Cheers,
Kert Peterson
Fircrest, WA
kertp@...

Michael,

One of the advantages (or problems depending on your point of view) with the
amount of information available today on freight cars is that the "average
modeler" is better informed than ever. The days of being able to slap any
paint scheme on a generic 40' boxcar are long gone, at least in this crowd.
Believe me, six inches DOES make a difference, particularly in boxcar
heights as Ben has shown. Lets not get into how much of a difference a foot
in length makes, OK..... (inside joke maybe)

Having said that, individual modelers will set their own standards as to
what they feel is acceptable. I may be willing to accept several
shortcomings on a model that Tim or Ben would spend hours reworking. You
might look at all of our efforts and be convinced we all need to be
medicated. There are some very talented and knowledgable modelers on this
list. Lettting the insults fly just because you might not see things their
way and without knowing who you are insulting shows the same lack of
understanding and tolerance as you're accusing them of.

Bill Schneider