Date   

Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question.

Buygone <buygone@...>
 

Shawn:

Wrong the Van Nuys plant was built to assemble Chevy's and the South Gate
was BOP (Buick, Olds & Pontiac) no Cadillac's were assembled at either
plant. As a City Freight and Passenger Agent I was assigned to the South
Gate plant in the 1960's. About that time all plants were converted over to
assemble cars of certain body sizes, at which time Van Nuys went to the
assembling the Camero-Firebird line and South Gate went to the B body
assembly of Buick, Chevy, Olds and Pontiacs.

All of the Cadillac's that were sold in California were assembled in
Michigan, arriving here in auto cars, then the stack pac's and finally in
the tri or by levels.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:28 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research
Question.


Dave Nelson wrote, in part:

...CA was ranked #2 for receiving auto parts in rail
shipments, NY #4 -- so the data suggests those two
did have some assembly plants ( and from other sources
I know CA did)...
Dave, there were two General Motors plants in Southern
California that I know of: the Van Nuys plant for Chevy's
and Pontiacs, and the South Gate plant for Cadillac's. The
Espee Raymer Yard facility in Van Nuys was basically a
staging yard for shoving cars of parts in for assembly of
Camaros and Firebirds.

Paging through a 1951 ORER the other night, I was made aware
that while auto-parts cars might be listed as equipped for
"transmission" or "axle" or "battery" loading, the ORER did
not specify which *manufacturer* the parts were intended for!
This makes it that much harder to determine which cars on the
roster might have gone where.

I did discover that the New York Central in 1951 had a TON of
gondolas assigned to auto frame service, including drop-bottom
GS cars, which surprised me a bit. Guess I'm in need of quite a
few more photos of NYC gondolas...

Shawn Beckert






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Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Hmmm...

WYO: 150 lbs of car/resident
MT: 133
WA: 129
OR: 125
TX: 68
USA average: 30
NJ: 14
Dave, I lived in Texas, Calif, and NJ during the 1950's. I
do not know of any major auto assembly plant in Texas during
that era. And in New Jersey I think there was one each Ford
and GM plant. But autos have brand names like Ford, Mercury,
Oldsmobile etc etc and so the output of each plant typically
serves a large area of the country. NJ is 500+ rail miles
from Detroit -- so I am mystified why NJ would receive 1/10
of the autos by rail per capita of Oregon. I don't think the
reason was localized production -- there may be something
else going on.

For example, the New York Central may have gotten the lion's
share of auto traffic to the east, and they may have terminated
New Jersey auto loads at New York City locations and delivered
them by truck -- 90% of the NJ population is within a 100 mile
drive of NYC.

Now Texas, that is a head scratcher. Perhaps the automobiles
were shipped by barges or coastal freighter to Houston, Port
Arthur, Corpus Christi or Brownsville. Those ports are a
short distance from at least 1/2 of Texas's population. The
auto book I have has pictures of ocean ships, Great Lakes
ships, and Ohio River barges loaded with automobiles. It even
shows a Great Lakes bulk carrier (grain or ore) with autos on
its deck, stowed on top of the bulk hatches!

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Red Caboose Reefer accuracy

Andy Carlson
 

Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:34:29 -0700
From: "Jim or Lisa Hayes" <jim-and-lisa@...>
Subject: RE: Re: Red Caboose Reefer

<Their other reefers generally have correct schemes>

Correct for PFE maybe, but not for NP. The NP didn't have wood side PFE
style reefers.

--
Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
Jim, the Red Caboose NP wood side reefers were close enough if you replaced the underframe with an Accurail fishbelly version, and replaced the peaked roof with a Central Valley NP stock car radial roof, as Jerry Glow demonstrated a few years ago with a factory painted Red Caboose offering- with great results. Seems the paint job IS accurate. This certainly goes beyond assembling a kit, though many STMFC'ers could do this in their sleep.

Andy Carlson


Re: Fw: data base search

Steve Haas <Goatfisher2@...>
 

http://index.mrmag.com/

Steve Haas
Sammamish, WA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Al & Patricia Westerfield" <westerfield@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:34 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Fw: data base search



----- Original Message -----
From: Al & Patricia Westerfield
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 5:53 PM
Subject: Fw: data base search



----- Original Message -----
From: Al & Patricia Westerfield
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 9:03 AM
Subject: data base search


Lost some of my addresses in my latest computer melt-down. Can someone
supply the address for a model railroad magazine data base? I can't seem to
find one where they used to be. Thanks. - Al Westerfield






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Re: Fw: data base search

Kevin Lafferty <KevinHLafferty@...>
 

Al,

I think this is what you want:

http://www.index.mrmag.com/

Kevin Lafferty

-----Original Message-----
From: Al & Patricia Westerfield [mailto:westerfield@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 6:34 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Fw: data base search
Lost some of my addresses in my latest computer melt-down. Can someone
supply the address for a model railroad magazine data base? I can't seem to
find one where they used to be. Thanks. - Al Westerfield


Re: Fw: data base search

Jerry Breon <jbreon@...>
 

Al Westerfield wrote:
Lost some of my addresses in my latest computer melt-down. Can someone
supply the address for a model railroad magazine data base? I can't seem to
find one where they used to be. Thanks. - Al Westerfield

Al,
You've probably had a dozen replies by now, but is this what you are
looking for?
http://www.index.mrmag.com/
Jerry Breon
Reading, PA


Re: Digest Number 855

Rick <oscaletrains@...>
 

I doubt anyone has this info, but I need to make decals for the Auel 200 ton
four trucked flat car in O scale. The chosen road is C&NW. One fellow sent
me a nice photo of the car after it was repaired(someone apparently loaded
too much weight on it and broke it at some point in its life), but I am more
interested in lettering it "as built". There are at least two Car Builders
that have photos of the car that I know of, but other than the car number
and such, the rest of the writing on the car is just too small to make out
for me. So, if anyone has photos of it, or a car builders or C&NW historical
magazine that DOES have a legible photo that can be read, please let me
know...


Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question.

GMeyer6103@...
 

The neon sign above the main entrance of the South Gate, General Motors plant
on Tweedy Blvd. in the 1950s said that they assembled Buicks, Oldsmobiles and
Pontiac's. To the best of my knowledge, Cadillacs were not assembled there.
In Interurbans Special # 16, Lines of Pacific Electric, Southern District,
page 114D, there is a picture of a PE car near of the Willys Overland plant
at "Edgewater" (Commerce today I believe) in 1938 on the PE, Whittier - La
Habra - Yorba Linda line. I have been told that Chrysler also had an assembly
plant in Commerce. It may have been the old Willys plant. Ford opened an
assembly plant in Pico Rivera on the Santa Fe and closed their Wilmington
plant......Gary Meyer.......Long Beach, Ca.


Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timoconnor@...]
Dave Nelson wrote
A couple data points from the 1950 ICC data.

Texas was ranked #2 (behind NY) in states receiving automobiles
shipped by
rail 11.6% of all such shipments. CA, WA, OR were #4, 5, and 6
-- strongly
suggesting that few (or no) auto assembly plants were in those states.
Since OR and WA are relatively small in population, it also
suggests that a lot of export autos were going to Portland or
Seattle. The "New Car Carriers" book that we discussed a while
back has several photos of autos being loaded on ships.

Maybe. Looking at the percapita calculations I have from the same ICC data
(a bit silly but the census bureau had the numbers and the sql to query it
is trivial... it's sometimes insightful), the first 5 ranked states (1950
receipts of rail shipped automobiles):

WYO: 150 lbs of car/resident
MT: 133
WA: 129
OR: 125
CO: 122

Betcha WA & OR were not exporting them, but who knows.... Moving down the
list:

etc
TX: 68
etc
NY: 38
CA: 37
USA average: 30

Some plants there, more below....
etc.

GA: 15
NJ: 14
PA: 14

etc.
MI: 8
WI: 6
MD: 4
IL: 2
MI: 1
OH: .3lbs of car/resident

Then we switch over to auto parts, same source, ranked:

DE: 1257 lbs of parts / resident. Ok, they built cars here. Didn't know
that.
MI: 505 Built cars here too. Duh.
MO: 394
MD: 382
KS: 311
NJ: 280
GA: 262
CA: 229
IN: 180
IL: 128
USA Average: 125

etc
OR: 24 lbs of parts / resident
WA: 24
CO: 16
MT: 7
WY: 2

Other than the DE data, not any surprises for me. Serves to show some
relative concentrations if no other info is available.

Dave Nelson


Re: OOps Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question

Greg Martin
 

Sorry for the short post...

My point is that even if you were a bridge road like the WP and you wanted the shipper to use your bridge for the line haul you would be responsible to supply X amount of cars or you were out! What we fail to recognize, it seems, that during RAIL RATE REGULATION you only made moeny if if you could become a carrier involved in the haul. Your division of the haul was figured by the miles involved in the haul.

So your pool car might not originate on your road or terminate on your road (but hopefully it did go empty at on your line)you still needed to supply a car for the line haul. Deregulation was the death of the brige roads as is clear today. Car management was very diffecult and lead to spot shortages of cars and car types in many areas. The ARR threathened to embargo the SP&S unles the parent roads added cars to the SP&S fleet by the mid-1950's and they were forced to buy cars for the OE for lumber products loadings here in Oregon. During the mid-50's car utilization waas near a melt down. The Pennsy sloganed thee X29d's with the Slogan DON"T STAND ME STILL reminding the shipper/receiver to put the cars back into service quickly.

Shawn, for your modeling purposes you will have to study the trains that carried the traffic, include the bridges, if any and build your fleet with this in mind. They might include various road names. Research, research, research...

Greg Martin


Re: Fw: data base search

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Al, try http://index.mrmag.com/

You have to register. It's free... I think.

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question

Greg Martin
 

Larry,

I understand this oh to well as I am involved daily with rail shipping.


Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Dunlop is a subsidary of Goodyear Tire. Firstone is
owned (for what good it does them...) by Bridgestone.

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ

Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:38:19 -0000
From: "englishintroy" <englij@...>
Subject: Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A
Research Question

Dunlop (now a subsidiary of
Bridgestone?) still makes tires in Tonawanda.


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Fw: data base search

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Al & Patricia Westerfield
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 5:53 PM
Subject: Fw: data base search



----- Original Message -----
From: Al & Patricia Westerfield
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 9:03 AM
Subject: data base search


Lost some of my addresses in my latest computer melt-down. Can someone supply the address for a model railroad magazine data base? I can't seem to find one where they used to be. Thanks. - Al Westerfield


Fw: BC Models

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Al & Patricia Westerfield
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: BC Models


Dear steam freight car folk,

Please help. We are looking for a current email address, postal address and/or phone for Bob Cook, BC Models. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, Patricia Westerfield


Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tony Thompson once mentioned that the Espee renumbered its auto
parts cars every time they were assigned to another manufacturer
or model year.
Shawn, when I get to auto cars in my freight car volumes, I will include
the company stuff I have for the late 1950s about assignments, and you will
see that indeed some cars were renumbered every year. Most, though (e.g.
Chrysler battery cars) stayed in the same pool, albeit with new racks every
few years. But naturally pool sizes changed from year to year, so there was
considerable movement of cars between number groups.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote

A couple data points from the 1950 ICC data.

Texas was ranked #2 (behind NY) in states receiving automobiles shipped by
rail 11.6% of all such shipments. CA, WA, OR were #4, 5, and 6 -- strongly
suggesting that few (or no) auto assembly plants were in those states.
Since OR and WA are relatively small in population, it also
suggests that a lot of export autos were going to Portland or
Seattle. The "New Car Carriers" book that we discussed a while
back has several photos of autos being loaded on ships.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Oct 16, 11:03am, Beckert, Shawn wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question
Fellow Listers,

Where would one go to find information on the interaction
between railroads and the automobile industry in the 1940's
and 1950's?
Shawn,

The Ops-Ind list is one place to find out. There was a thread a
while back indicating that Jim Eager and Nick Molo were trying to

compile a list of automobile and light
truck assembly plants and the railroads that served them circa
1979-80.

The basic list of plants and the models produced at each comes from
Ward's Automotive Yearbook for 1979 and 1980, but that reference of
course makes no mention of which railroad--or railroads--served each
plant.
I don't know if Ward's existed back in the timeframe of your
interest, but it's worth looking into.

John Mitchell is studying the same thing for the 50's, and he
commented

[QUOTE]
"By the way, the Dept of Commerce in Washington puts out an annual report
on
prospects for all industries in the US. (Industrial Horizons??) You may be
able to get a really old one from that Dept's library for your time
period.
I know they have been producing it since at least the mid-eighties, but
may
have done it before that. They also have a chapter on auto parts and I
believe a listing of locations for huge plants necessary to produce major
parts such as stampings, engines, transmissions, etc

In Canada, the Automotive Branch of Industry Canada put out an annual
report
on the Automotive Industry, including stats on Cdn and NA production, who
produces what, where, etc. Also info on the major parts producers and
their
plants. The Departmental Library would have copies back to about 1983."

[END QUOTE]


Per their messages, John's email is (was) mitchel2@... and Jim's is
(was) jeager@... .


Good luck!

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Reefers For Sale

howiselary <glw@...>
 

Hi Folks,

Have several different models of reefer kits to sell.

Please contact off list.

George


Re: Railroads and the Auto Industry: A Research Question.

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Larry Smith wrote:

Shawn

I won't say never because that will get you in trouble, but I doubt if
the
NYC gons would have been used on the SSW.
If a consortium of roads assigned gons to haul auto parts from a
specific plant, what are the chances that the shipping foreman would
only load a NYC gon for a plant on the NYC, an SP gon loaded with parts
for a plant on the SP, etc..

My guess would be slim because a string of gons would be set randomly,
and the cars would be loaded in an order of two to Plant A, three to
Plant B, etc.. The shipping foreman's job was to load cars which he did
in the most convenient way possible for him.

Tim Gilbert

183141 - 183160 of 195528