Date   

Re: Maine Central ARA box cars

TC <tculotta@...>
 

Jack Wyatt wrote:

<<Does anyone know if the Maine Central replaced the K brakes on
their ARA
box cars (5000-6003) before or at the same time as they added the
Murphy
roofs to the cars (or was it a combination of both of these
scenarios)?>>

Ted, any idea about what date they did the roofs?
Jack:

From everything I have heard, it was late the 1940's. I am modeling a
car with the Viking roof (not the Viking roof that most of you would
think of, but rather an earlier, 1920's version) and rectangular
herald. I am trying to determine whether K or AB brakes are more
appropriate. I have never heard of problems with the early Viking roofs
leaking, so I am unsure of why they were replaced. However, not many
cars had these roofs so leakage problems might not have received much
press.

Ted Culotta


Van Dyke Tank Car ..was Whatever Happened To Accuracy?

Bill Kelly
 

There is a narrow gauge Van Dyke car at the Georgetown Loop Railway
at georgetown CO. It has been modified on one side with a pump.
It is lettered for the railroad.

Later,
Bill Kelly



You wrote;
<snip>
UTLX 14387 (shown at St. Louis) was another of these
Van Dyke cars...only on standard gauge trucks...
but none of the narrow gauge versions of this car have survived.

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Re: Maine Central ARA box cars

C J Wyatt
 

<<Does anyone know if the Maine Central replaced the K brakes on their ARA
box cars (5000-6003) before or at the same time as they added the Murphy
roofs to the cars (or was it a combination of both of these scenarios)?>>

Ted, any idea about what date they did the roofs?

Jack Wyatt


Re: UTLX red tanks was- Whatever Happened To Accuracy?

Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...>
 

Hi Richard,

Could you put an approximate time frame on red tank cars?

Ted


The lettering on UTLX 14387 represents standard UTL practice when the car
was built, as far as it goes (some small data stenciling is omitted). And
at that time, the lettering was white. The car color is a whole 'nother
issue, as there is some evidence (though not conclusive) that UTL cars were
red at that time.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Ted Schnepf
railsunl@...


Re: Armour cars 1950

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Aley - GCD PE [mailto:jaley@...]
Dave,

Do some roads' Shipper's Directories indicate the difference
between a branch house and a slaughterhouse? Or do you just make a
reasonable guess based upon geographic location?

It's so varied there's no tellin what to expect. The Sanborn maps I've
viewed have indicated stock pens (e.g., in Butchertown, San Francisco) or it
says Tallow works right next door to so-and-so meat packing (e.g., Bayshore,
Berkeley - a surprise) but then you try some other place like San Jose where
I know there was a slaughterhouse and zip -- nothing in the maps, nothing in
the city directory (not even a sniff of one), nothing in the WP directory.
Zip. It was outside the city limits back then so it could have well been on
the far side of the moon.

Dave Nelson


Museum Accuracy

golden1014
 

Hi Shawn,

Well, I'm sure that almost every museum would do it
"right" if they could. Remember that many museums are
working under time and money constraints. You're not
being naive or inaccurate. Many of those guys are just
1:1 modelers of sorts--they got close enough and
that's good enough for them. I do, however, totally
understand your lament!

The pictures are interesting though. Regarding the 4K
tank car; I was in Alaska last year for an exercise
and did some railfanning on the ARR. They had an old
4K tank car, built date around 1918 IIRC, still in
operational MofW service. That car truly knows no era.
If you're interested I can scan a photo and send it.

Later,
John Golden
Travis AFB, CA



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Maine Central ARA box cars

TC <tculotta@...>
 

Does anyone know if the Maine Central replaced the K brakes on their ARA
box cars (5000-6003) before or at the same time as they added the Murphy
roofs to the cars (or was it a combination of both of these scenarios)?
The photos in my collection are either very early or much later.

Thank you.

Ted Culotta


Re: USRA SS Box Car

Benjamin Frank Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Kert Peterson asked:
I'm building a Tichy 40' USRA SS Box car into, I hope, a Pennsy X26 circa
1951. I need some help with a few parts to make sure I get this correct for
1951. Were there any of the X26 that still had KC brakes and hand rungs
(instead of ladders) in 1951? If there were, what number series were they
in? What trucks would be correct, and would they be friction or roller
bearing? Any other tips that I am missing will be appreciated.

Kert, do yourself a huge favor and buy one of Al Westerfield's newly updated
one-piece body kits which specifically model 1930s Class X26 rebuilds:

3355 Wood Door
3356 Youngstown Door
3357 CRECo Door
http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/

To be fair to Mont, he did a great job on his conversion; the other
reasonable approach at the time would have been to use the Westerfield flat
kit and substitute a Hutchins roof from one of his other kits (which he'd be
happy to sell you separately). However (and meaning no disrespect to Greg
Martin or Mont Switzer), why put yourself through the hassle? The
Westerfield one-piece kits are no more difficult to build than the Tichy
kit, and you get the number series info, a great history of the car, three
door variations, and decals made specifically for the car. Follow Greg's
advice and pick up a pair of the Accurail trucks for the Westerfield kit.

Number series info can be found on Ron Schoenberg's website:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X26

Photos of PRR 564287 and PRR 45466 are at Ted Culotta's website, as well as
a bibliography and list of published photos that I put together:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/prrx26main.html
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/vm/vm10bibliomain.html
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/vm/vm10photosmain.html

One detail on the 1930s Class X26 rebuilds gets missed but once you notice
it, it will really bug you: many of the cars received truss reinforcements,
which you can see on the photo of PRR 45466 at the junction of some of the
truss members. Not all truss members received these reinforcements, and
these differed from car to car - always work from a photo if you're
reproducing a specific car. IIRC, John Johnson reproduced this detail using
Bare Metal Foil.

OK, so now you've got a spare Tichy kit - why not pick up a set of Al's
decals for the MILW USRA SS boxcars and do one of those? (BTW, you get the
info sheet with the decals.) The Milwaukee Road got 4,000 cars, the second
largest allocation from USRA, and the cars ran through the 1950s. There's a
photo of MILW 703425 at Ted's website:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/milw703425main.html

Good luck!


Ben Hom


Re: ACF 1790 cubic foot, covered hopper

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

Can anyone tell me if anyone makes an HO scale kit of an ACF 1790 cubic
foot, covered hopper similar to that shown in B&LE livery on P248 of
Kaminski, E. S. American car & foundry company 1899-1999.
Not that I know of. It would make a nice resin kit.

David Thompson


Re: Steam era piggyback

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

As you probably recall, we have been in the trailer flat
business since 1936. Insofar as I can determine, we just
about break even on the operation. I sincerely doubt if it
ever becomes very big except, perhaps, between very
large towns such as Chicago and New York or Chicago
and Detroit."

One wonders whether Mr. Deramus ever recalled that small
tidbit, years later when he was semi-retired from the railroad
industry and the TOFC traffic became very heavy.
Well indeed the business has always been very marginal, barely
profitable, and is heavily concentrated between major cities. I
think Deramus was prescient in his remarks.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


RR Books and Car Kits for Sale

George Gounley <gounleys@...>
 

I am selling about 300 RR books from my collection (along with a few resin
kits).

My list is on the web at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~gounleys

Thank you for looking it over.

George Gounley

gounleys@...


Re: Armour cars 1950

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Sep 16, 7:50am, Dave Nelson wrote:
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Armour cars 1950

Have you ever seen / discovered a list of the "branch houses" for
Armour (or any other meat packer, for that matter)?
The only places I've seen them is Sanborn maps, city directories, and
shippers directories. IMO, way too much work to get any comprehensive
list.

Dave Nelson
Dave,

Do some roads' Shipper's Directories indicate the difference
between a branch house and a slaughterhouse? Or do you just make a
reasonable guess based upon geographic location?


Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Steam era piggyback

thompson@...
 

Mike Skibbe said:
Chicago Great Western was experimenting with the piggyback concept as
early as 1936. This is from a recent post to the CGW list regarding
the (1954) president's (WND3 = Deramus III) view that the trailer on
flat concept wasn't going to go anywhere:
Deramus's reply is indeed interesting. But the 1936 date for CGW, etc.
etc. is well documented in David DeBoer's book, "Piggyback and Containers"
(Golden West, 1992), and the 19th century efforts in the same direction are
thoroughly laid out in Jack White's book, "The American Railroad Freight
Car." Those aspects need no further support from us on the list.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Steam era piggyback

skibbs4 <mmrace4@...>
 

(Just to add some info to the interesting thread on early tofc
traffic)

Chicago Great Western was experimenting with the piggyback concept as
early as 1936. This is from a recent post to the CGW list regarding
the (1954) president's (WND3 = Deramus III) view that the trailer on
flat concept wasn't going to go anywhere:

Group -

Here's an interesting item found in my late Uncle's papers.
Some background - an outside consulting firm was asking
for an audience with WND3 in 1954, with reference to the
future of TOFC traffic. The consultant, a Mr. Hubert Soher,
of San Francisco, California, had written WND3 asking if he
would be in Chicago during the timeframe that he, Mr. Soher,
would be there. Snippets of Mr. Soher's letter is followed by
WND3's reply.

" I am particularly interested in studying the potentialities
which may accrue to the railroads through the development of
the new flat car that would put truck trailers on rails. It would
seem to me that the piggy-back form of transportation has
interesting potentialities for those railroads where it could
prove adaptable."

..Remember, this is 1954.....here is Mr. Deramus' reply.....

" It is a little early to tell whether I (WND3) will be in Chicago
on the dates..........

As you probably recall, we have been in the trailer flat
business since 1936. Insofar as I can determine, we just
about break even on the operation. I sincerely doubt if it
ever becomes very big except, perhaps, between very
large towns such as Chicago and New York or Chicago
and Detroit."

One wonders whether Mr. Deramus ever recalled that small
tidbit, years later when he was semi-retired from the railroad
industry and the TOFC traffic became very heavy.

-DEV

<end of forwarded message>

Most of the really early tofc on the CGW was just 20' trailers
chained to flatcars. LOTS of chain was used, they seemed to be
afraid they would fall off the flatcars!

Mike Skibbe
www.cgwrr.com


Accuracy

Andy Carlson
 

It would seem to be a dichotomy in the standards of museum work; if a museum is of one in the classic scholarly areas of research (eg the London Egypt exhibit) there is near universal demand for accuracy. Museums that collect artifacts of our industrial heritage, however, are not often looked at as Ivy League level of pure research, and documentation, identification, and preservation are not given scholarly importance.

I can give a list longer than any of you would care to read about examples of poor and indifferent research at the various museums in North America. I know of a Western Museum that was approached by Lifelike for painting info of a locomotive they wished to produce. This museum had their expert send painting info without correcting the museums own mistaken color identification, so now the hobby has 1000s of inaccurate painted models. I would suspect the response I would get from this group, if I personally "outed" them, could probably be something similar to what RH got from some CB&Q society members over his editorial about bogus society HO boxcars.

When an RR museum organization is run by a few volunteers, you have to be lucky that the individual who wishes to paint a freight car is also a person who cares about accurate research, and isn't detered by those who are indifferent.

Andy Carlson


Re: Whatever Happened To Accuracy?

Ray Breyer <rbreyer@...>
 

Tony and group,

You seem to be lumping museums and tourist roads together in one big ugly
bundle. All institutions that preserve/maintain/operate railroad equipment
need to make money to do so. No one's going to make any money if all they
do is nitpick everything to death. If a tourist line wants to paint their
engine and equipment pink, that's their business. At least the stuff's
still around to complain about.

Museums SHOULD make every effort to preserve equipment in some "real"
condition. But is that enough? How "correct" is a random jumble of
engines, cars, and cabooses in an excursion train? Personally, I wouldn't
mind some "fibbing" if the overall scene looks better. Case in point, IRM's
usual steam consist. One Frisco 2-10-0, one unmarked express reefer, one
Rock combine, and 3 Lackawanna commuter coaches. Personally, I think that
there are enough Rock and Lackawanna commuter cars out there to choke a
horse. IRM should reletter the coaches for the Frisco (or the decapod to
DL&W!) to make the train look "right". At least then I can squint a bit and
say, "There goes a Frisco local!", instead of, "Hey, it's a museum ride!"
The nicest mainline fantrip trainsets today are the consists of 3985 and
261. Neither has cars completely original to the roads they're painted for,
but they look better than the normal circus train fan trips.

And how do you categorize roads like Strasburg? Technically, they're a
common carrier, so however they paint their equipment is correct (you can't
tell CSX that they can't repaint their ConRail engines because it's
"incorrect"). And I don't mind watching a N&W 4-8-0 smoke around the main
line as a Strasburg engine, because it all looks "correct" in context.

That the equipment is still with us SHOULD be enough. Yes, museums SHOULD
paint all their equipment "correctly", but they've done more to preserve the
equipment in ANY paint scheme than the majority of us.

Ray Breyer

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@... [mailto:thompson@...]
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:57 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Whatever Happened To Accuracy?


Shawn Beckert wrote:
That said, however, I've got to ask: Do ANY of these places
bother to research their equipment? Sure, I understand it's
mostly volunteers that make these museums go, but don't they
have people on staff that check into the history of their cars?
Is it all really just a question of time and money? If they had
the money to paint the cars in the first place, why not get it
right the first time? The first two photos are at the Museum Of
Transport in St. Louis. They of all people ought to know about
railroad history (I don't know why I'm saying that, probably
because they're so large).
It's obvious at most railroad museums that they don't really care all
that much about accuracy. And indeed, they often have much more pressing
issues: keeping the fan trips running (with both staff and equipment),
staffing the gift shop, etc. etc. A number of them around the country have
deliberately (when they knew better) repainted equipment for a "favorite
railroad" even though said road never owned that piece of equipment or in
some cases, anything resembling that equipment. And we all know of the
imaginary or "fun" schemes used by museums, mostly for locomotives.
As anyone who has worked as a volunteer at a rail museum knows, a maximum
of one visitor in a hundred knows a blessed thing about railroads. Thus the
common remark that museum workers would have for Shawn: "nobody gives a
damn."
Someone will no doubt lumber Shawn with the usual rebuttal: "Whyncha go
out there and help?" This is a variation of what we learned in third grade,
if you can't say something nice, don't say anything. But Shawn is quite
entitled to notice that accuracy is not being served, at St. Louis (hardly
a paragon among museums, BTW), or at many other places.
About all you can do is offer to provide information. If, like Bob
Walker, they tell you that "nobody gives a s--t" you'll just have to shrug
it off.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Whatever Happened To Accuracy?

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Shawn and all,

I can't speak about the first two of these cars, but
the third, UTLX 13084 is NOT located at St. Louis. In
fact it's quite a ways away from St. Louis, and the
give away is two things...

1) the inspection location is "ALA"...which is short
for Alamosa, Colorado. Not many UTLX cars got
inspected there.

2) Anybody notice the track gauge? If the "ALA"
inspection stencil isn't the giveaway this should be
it...the location of this car is in Chama, New Mexico
and yes, it's a 3-foot gauge car. Not that this makes
much difference...when UTLX converted some of their
cars to narrow gauge all they did was to remove the
standard gauge trucks and mount new narrow gauge
trucks. Now the last time I was there a couple of
years ago I didn't notice anything wrong with the
lettering, but since Chama is over 8000 feet in
elevation, the UV from the sun does a job on paint in
a hurry up there. It could be yellow paint that's
faded, the photo is slightly overexposed and hard to
tell. I did notice that this car has the wrong trucks,
but finding ANY 3 foot gauge trucks is worth the
effort. Incidently the trucks on this car would be
correct for the 3-foot frameless (Van Dyke) car that
ran on the Grande's line in Chama (these included the
famous "GRAMPS" tank cars. UTLX 14387 (shown at St.
Louis) was another of these Van Dyke cars...only on
standard gauge trucks... but none of the narrow gauge
versions of this car have survived.


=====
Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ

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Accuracy

jthibault92028 <john711@...>
 

I have experienced the same lack of fidelity to accuracy in a museum
called Frontier Heritage, in Lubbock,TX. They painted a CB&Q cabbose
in Santa Fe Scheme and hooked it up behind a CB&Q 2-8-2! Several,
knowledgable people tried to intervene at the time, but to no avail.

John Thibault
SFRH&MS


ACF 1790 cubic foot, covered hopper

Philip Dove <pdove@...>
 

Hi!
Can anyone tell me if anyone makes an HO scale kit of an ACF 1790 cubic foot, covered hopper similar to that shown in B&LE livery on P248 of Kaminski, E. S. American car & foundry company 1899-1999. I would like to get one & letter it with Champ decals set HC-261 for Gatx, Owens Illinois. Can anyone give me more Data as to the era of this livery and it's accuracy please.

Regards
Philip Dove


O/S Braced Boxcars

Alan C. Welch <acwelch@...>
 

On an earlier topic, I have three photos of American-owned 36' outside braced boxcars, all purporting to have taken in 1940. They are:

Rwy. Build Date Door Width Builder

NYS&W 1913 6'

Erie 1913 6'

NC&StL 1923 6' Standard St. Car? (very hard to be sure)

The earlier cars have been rebuilt with metal rooves and the later car had one as built. There is an interesting selection of non-original trucks on them too.

As was pointed out earlier, it ain't a Fowler unless it has the slotted bolt holes for attaching the siding, and all these cars have them. These cars are unlike the CP cars in that they have 6' doors. However similar, 6'-doored cars were built for the Grand Trunk and later for CN.

At least the earlier cars were built at a time when the Canadian railroads were buying similar cars in the US and one could speculate on who built them, but I won't.

There are no builders identifications on two of the cars.

Al

183161 - 183180 of 194803