Thanks Richard, different address than on the box I have. Guess they moved!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

I've posted three builder's photos (PRR, GTW, and N&W)
and lots of information on the new Tichy War Emergency gons at:

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/Rolling-stock/Kits/Tichy-kits.html

I'll post any other photos there of in service views or pictures of the models. - John

John:

The inspiration for these cars was not the Erie gon, but the AAR standard of
that time, which was based on a Bethlehem Steel design built first for the
Lehigh Valley. I will be happy to provide you with more info and a draft of
an article I have almost completed on these cars that will also include
modeling info as well as roster information, including the variances in
details (ends, hand brakes, etc.)

Regards,
Ted

On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the order
rate just doesn't justify it.

A very late question (I've been out of town):

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling cost
would be. $2,800?

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Jeff,

That's probably correct. Since they would screw it up so much, no one
would buy whatever it is you're talking about and they'd never make their
28 bucks back.

Okay, okay, I know you're talking about K brakes. And Bowser.

But wasn't there a rumor several (many?) months ago that LifeLike was
gonna retool the underframe back to K brakes for a future run of the P2K
tank cars?

Just asking.

BSR


On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:38:25 -0800 (PST) Jeff Aley - GCD PE
<jaley@pcocd2.intel.com> writes:

On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the

order

rate just doesn't justify it.

A very late question (I've been out of town):

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling
cost
would be. $2,800?

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

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On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the order
rate just doesn't justify it.

A very late question (I've been out of town):

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling cost
would be. $2,800?

Regards,

-Jeff

Um Jeff...my bet is that we'll be adding another zero - $28,000

Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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You're right that was a typo. The cost to "rebuild" the mold is
$28,000. Be aware that rebuild may be a misnomer since often when molds
reach the end of repairable life new ones are fabricated from scratch.

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@cheatriver.com

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------

I have a problem with the figure of $28,000 to cut a mold for a K-brake.
We are talking one part 3/4" long here. I think probably $2,800 is more
accurate. At 10 cents a part profit it would take 28,000 parts to break
even, probably more than could be sold in 10 years!
Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

I believe that the K brake set that CalScale used to make included other
parts besides the actual cylinder/reservoir, such as levers, brake
wheel, retainer valve etc.

Max

On Jan 4, 4:53pm, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] P2K Tank Cars & K brakes

On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the

order

rate just doesn't justify it.

A very late question (I've been out of town):

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling cost
would be. $2,800?

Regards,

-Jeff

Um Jeff...my bet is that we'll be adding another zero - $28,000

Wow! That's a pretty big pile of money! I thought that one could tool an
entire freight car for $100,000. Are the brakes really 1/4 of the total
cost? Or is most of the $28,000 "overhead"? [Or does it cost a heck of a
lot more than $100K for a freight car?]

Somebody once tried to explain to me how molding costs worked. I didn't
understand fully, but I thought he said something about a "mold base" that
was a significant part of the tooling cost, and that if the "mold base"
was reusable, the incremental costs were much smaller. Does this kind of
thing apply in this case? (Should I subscribe to the Tooling Costs for
Injection Molded Plastic Freight Cars List (TCIMPFCL)??)

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

f.y.i.

Somebody offering Coughlin's book on ebay. It's an extremely thorough,
official AAR book on the theory of freight car handling, ca. 1956.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&;item=532876209
-----------------------------------
Dave Nelson

Went hunting for the "Berol Prismacolor" white pencils today. At my
local "Aaron Brothers" store I found "Sanford Prismacolor" pencils. Some of
their 'magic markers' had either one name or the other on them leading me to
think one bought out the other!
The store people, as usual, knew nothing so called corporate offices.
They told me "Berol" and "Sanford" are the same company and the pencils are
the same. My question to Richard and the list at large, is this a true
statement?

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Went hunting for the "Berol Prismacolor" white pencils today. At my
local "Aaron Brothers" store I found "Sanford Prismacolor" pencils. Some of
their 'magic markers' had either one name or the other on them leading me to
think one bought out the other!
The store people, as usual, knew nothing so called corporate offices.
They told me "Berol" and "Sanford" are the same company and the pencils are
the same. My question to Richard and the list at large, is this a true
statement?

True as far as I know, Jon. I haven't bought one in a couple of years; the
one I'm currently using is a Berol Prismacolor French (very light) Gray.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Jeff Aley comments:

Wow! That's a pretty big pile of money! I thought that one could tool an
entire freight car for $100,000. Are the brakes really 1/4 of the total
cost? Or is most of the $28,000 "overhead"? [Or does it cost a heck of a
lot more than $100K for a freight car?]

I may be out of date on this, but the $100k number that used to get
thrown around was for steel dies. Aluminum dies made with NC technology are
supposedly less expensive. And any single sprue, as opposed to a multi-part
die which has to open in several directions to eject the part, cannot be
close to the costs for a full body die. Can anyone supply modern numbers
for these various cases?

(Should I subscribe to the Tooling Costs for
Injection Molded Plastic Freight Cars List (TCIMPFCL)??)

Hey, now THAT sounds interesting. But I think I'd only want to join the
Steam Era TCIMPFCL.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

On Jan 4, 4:53pm, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:

On Dec 23, 10:59am, Kathe Robin wrote:

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the order
rate just doesn't justify it.

Surely "~$28" is a typo; I'm curious as to what the real tooling cost
would be. $2,800?

Um Jeff...my bet is that we'll be adding another zero - $28,000

These numbers are starting to get ridiculus. I was quoted $1700 for a "double
side puller" mold for a pair of chilled iron wheels and a tapered axle in S
scale. When I got a re-quote, eliminating the axle, and thus the need for a
specialized mold, that price fell further. No way would a brake mold cost
$28,000.

Earl Tuson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
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Earl:

While I'll be the 1st to admit that $28K sounds high for an air brake
mold, I've been designing molds and getting them into production use for
more than 25 years.

If you look in the archives there is a series of items related to mold
manufacturing and costs running from around 8/8/00 to 8/20/00, which
also contains significant feedback from Dennis Storzek of Accurail, as
well as some hard dollar figures for models you have seen and handled.

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@cheatriver.com

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------

In 1950, the Soo had 4 cars classed TW: 4481, 4491, 4669, and 4799 - all
marked as vinegar tanks. I'm wondering if these 4 were rebuilt from another
series of cars: 4401-4799 (they share the same exterior length) or were they
oddballs in their own right?

Anybody know?

-----------------------------------
Dave Nelson

http://www.worldrailfans.org/USA/General/Trucks/Trucks.htm

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

In the February RMC there is a brief kitbashing article where Dwight Smith
shortened the Athearn chemical tank car and frame and added a larger dome
and details. The results look nice. There is a prototype photo of this car
in TSC 12. Frankly, I have looked a number of times at the Athearn tank and
wondered what could be done with it, perhaps shortening it as Dwight did and
marrying it with the Tichy underframe.

Comments? Other/Better prototypes?

Thanks
Steve Hile

Steve Hile wrote:

In the February RMC there is a brief kitbashing article where Dwight Smith
shortened the Athearn chemical tank car and frame and added a larger dome
and details. The results look nice. There is a prototype photo of this car
in TSC 12. Frankly, I have looked a number of times at the Athearn tank and
wondered what could be done with it, perhaps shortening it as Dwight did and
marrying it with the Tichy underframe.

Comments? Other/Better prototypes?

Steve, what Dwight did is a plausible kit-bash which results in a model
that's fairly close to being dimensionally accurate for a 10K gal. insulate
ICC-103 or ICC-104. I've contemplated doing something similar myself but
have never gotten around to it. One problem he didn't address is that the
Athearn tank bottom is the same one that's in the three dome tank kit, so
it is undersize and has a profusion of unprototypical rivets. That's not
hard to fix, however, by filing off the rivets and adding an outer layer of
styrene sheet. Depending on prototype, an InterMountain underframe might
be preferable to a Tichy underframe (and for a GATC car, the original
Athearn underframe can be shortened, as on the 10K gal. GATC ICC-103 model
I wrote about in RMJ two or three years ago).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520