Can anyone tell me if the Proto 2000 war emergency 2-bay hopper has been relieced yet? And if so, what road names is in the first reliece?
Charlie Slater
Bakersfield, Ca.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

The LL site lists the following;
ITEM #
ROADNAME AND NUMBER PAINT SCHEME

23799 Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe #180633 As Delivered: Oxide Brown w/ White
Lettering
23800 Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe #180658
23802 Baltimore & Ohio #30075 Black w/ White Lettering, Dome Herald
23803 Baltimore & Ohio #30257
23805 Chesapeake & Ohio #54253 As Delivered: Black w/ White Lettering
23806 Chesapeake & Ohio #54398
23808 Chicago, Burlington, & Quincy #194041 Oxide Red w/ White Lettering,
Slogans
23809 Chicago, Burlington, & Quincy #194529
23811 Gulf Mobile & Ohio #60026 Black w/ White Lettering, Early Scheme
23812 Gulf Mobile & Ohio #60143
23814 Louisville & Nashville #31024 As Delivered: Oxide Red w/ White
Lettering
23815 Louisville & Nashville #31972
23817 Undecorated


Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Charlie, Santa Fe composite cars are included in the first release and it's
my understanding that the boat has docked; they may have been shipped
already. Models of the Santa Fe cars after they were steel sheathed in
1958 will be in the second release later this year.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Fellow Listers,
I am very new to the group, and still consider myself
very new at trying to do some railroad modeling. I'm not entirely
sure if this is the place for this post or not, but I'll give it a
shot anyway.
I was bemoaning, on another list, the fact that as a plastic
modeler of the past, I had ammassed quite a collection of prototype
reference material in the form of inexpensive, horizontal format
books, ala the "Squadron In Action" series of books on armor,
aircraft, etc. I have not encountered anything like this since
trying to become a model railroader. I have spent quite a bit so
far, and still have VERY far to go in assembling a decent steam-era
library. I personally feel that books such as these, with tech.
drawings, photos of the cars & locos in service, etc. would be a good
thing. Some have suggested I try getting hold of the "Train Shed
Cyclopedia" series of books. I remember seeing some of these in a
Walthers catalog at one time. Folks tell me I can pick them up at
shows. that would be great, but I don't get to go to shows.
Do any of ya'll know of a good mail order source for these
books? I do not have access to a local hobby shop to have them order
them for me from Walthers. Thank you for you advice, replies, etc.

Warren

Fellow Listers,
I am very new to the group, and still consider myself
very new at trying to do some railroad modeling. I'm not entirely
sure if this is the place for this post or not, but I'll give it a
shot anyway.
I was bemoaning, on another list, the fact that as a plastic
modeler of the past, I had ammassed quite a collection of prototype
reference material in the form of inexpensive, horizontal format
books, ala the "Squadron In Action" series of books on armor,
aircraft, etc. I have not encountered anything like this since
trying to become a model railroader. I have spent quite a bit so
far, and still have VERY far to go in assembling a decent steam-era
library. I personally feel that books such as these, with tech.
drawings, photos of the cars & locos in service, etc. would be a good
thing. Some have suggested I try getting hold of the "Train Shed
Cyclopedia" series of books. I remember seeing some of these in a
Walthers catalog at one time. Folks tell me I can pick them up at
shows. that would be great, but I don't get to go to shows.
Do any of ya'll know of a good mail order source for these
books? I do not have access to a local hobby shop to have them order
them for me from Walthers. Thank you for your advice, replies, etc.

Warren

Some of the Cyclopedias can be mail-ordered from hobby shops. The last
time I was there, The Train Shop in Santa Clara, CA had quite a few.

You can contact The Train Shop at " 408-296-1050 - Train Shop, 1829
Pruneridge Avenue, Santa Clara, CA 95050 " [Address & phone number
courtesy of
http://www.mcs.net/~weyand/www/tractronics/hobby_shops/hobby_shops.html#California
.


It is likely that other large hobby shops (e.g. Caboose Hobbies in Denver)
will also have some.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Thanks Jeff for the info. BTW gize, sorry if my message hit your mailbox
three times. I must have gotten punchy with the "send" button at the
e-Groups site. :)

Warren

Warren asked:

Some have suggested I try getting hold of the "Train Shed
Cyclopedia" series of books. I remember seeing some of these in a
Walthers catalog at one time. Folks tell me I can pick them up at
shows. that would be great, but I don't get to go to shows.

These have been available at wholesale pretty recently, so stores could
carry them if they wanted (and they may still be so available). They should
not be hard to find via booksellers on the Web nor from train stores with
Web sites, e.g. Caboose Hobbies and the Original Whistle Stop.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Warren,

I think that a couple of people have got you started on the wrong foot.
The Train Sheds are only one small component of a very large library
available to modelers who are interested in freight cars. Don't waste
your time chasing the proverbial wild goose looking for these because
they will only confuse you, especially if you are used to the "In
Actions" which are written especially for and to modelers. The Sheds are
simply excerpts from the very large volumes called "Car Builders
Dictioneries/Cyclopedias," published by the railroad industry from the
1880s to the present time, and used as references for the manufacture and
repair of the REAL railroad cars. The drawings are all engineering
drawings which take great knowledge and experience to interpret,
something that evades some of the better plan drawers in the model
fraternity.

I think your best starting point for an ongoing freight car education is
the model railroad magazines. Believing in the practice that every
magazine is new until you read it, seek out the hobby shops that sell old
issues of Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsman and especially
Mainline Modeler and just thumb thru them. If you find one with a
freight car article/plan that is of the era that interests you, not
necessarily of a railroad or area that interests you, but of the era, buy
it. You will learn something from it. Maybe not for today but months
from now you'll see how all freight cars are of some use to all modelers.

Another important source of knowledge, especially if you want to get lots
of it in one fell swoop, comes in the form of books. The best overall
would be "The American Railroad Freight Car" by John White and published
by John Hopkins Press. I believe it's now in paperback, still weighing
about 10 pounds, but probably the best place to find out why certain
railroad cars are the way they are. Although it covers the subject only
thru the 1910s, it gives an excellent grounding in the subject.

Several other books which will give a good view of freight cars through
the years include Tony Thompsons PFE book (I'm sure Tony can fill you in
about it better than I), Richard Hendricksons ATSF Auto Car book (ditto
Richard), Keith Jordans SFRD book (ditto Keith if he's with us)(on the
STMFC that is), John Whites the Great Yellow Fleet (Refrigerator cars,
not . . . ) and Andrew Dows N&W Coal Cars. Although these books cover a
only a single railroad or industry, their freight cars histories were
similar to that of the entire railroad industry.

The next thing to seek out are the several series of books which present
freight cars in an easier to digest format, similar to but more scatter
gunned than the "In Actions," but without the nice little drawings
showings variations between marks of aircraft or armor, something not
comparable to railroad practices. The more useful series include but are
not limited to:

Best of Mainline Modeler Freight Cars, 5 volumes, readily available and
worthwhile
Freight Car Models from Railroad Model Journal, 2-3 vols, available
Classic Freight Car, the Series, 10-11 vols, later ones available,
earlier one worth seeking out
Color Guides to Freight and Passenger Equipment, RR by RR books by
Morning Sun Books, little pricey but good for the RRs you're into
Wayner Picture books, excellent photo albums, worth seeking
Freight Car Journal Monographs, some worthwhile, especially those by Eric
Neubauer
Railway Prototype Cyclopedia by Hawkins, Wider, et al, 5 softcovers
currently available and very worthwhile (closest in spirit to those "In
Actions")
Railroad Car Journal, 5 small softcover books, hard to find but worth
seeking

A last underlooked and underappreciated source of superb freight car
histories is the information/data packages that come with the kits from
Westerfield and Sunshine Models. These are actually the closest in
spirit to the "In Actions" of anything in this hobby of ours. Although
you should buy the kits to get them,. I'm sure there are some people we
all know who'd be willing to send you copies if you were to ask.

But don't overlook the first source I mentioned, old magazines. Oft
times, the kit producers write or sponsor articles in the magazines to
tout their forthcoming models. Other times magazines will run articles
relating to new (or even old) kits on the market, especially the
magazines edited by Bob Schleicher (MRJ last 10 years, MRG before that).
These are especially good at pointing you in the right direction for the
usefulness of a particular model for your own purposes.

I'm sure there are lots of things I'm forgetting to mention, but this is
the best I can do off the cuff. Unfortunately, the hobby of Model
Railroading has moved away from it's cousin hobbies in that most MRs are
more interesting in running trains and all too few are interested in
constructing accurate models. I think that is something that most of the
people reading this would like to change. Maybe someday someone will
realize the need for well illustrated publications like those
Squadron-Signal puts out for airplane, armor, and ship modelers. Till
then we have to seek out what we can, where we can. But don't be afraid
to seek out people, there are lots of them willing to help. You have but
to ask.

Byron Rose


On Tue, 09 Jan 2001 01:44:32 -0000 ibs4421@commandnet.net writes:

Fellow Listers,
I am very new to the group, and still consider myself

very new at trying to do some railroad modeling. I'm not entirely
sure if this is the place for this post or not, but I'll give it a
shot anyway.
I was bemoaning, on another list, the fact that as a plastic
modeler of the past, I had ammassed quite a collection of prototype
reference material in the form of inexpensive, horizontal format
books, ala the "Squadron In Action" series of books on armor,
aircraft, etc. I have not encountered anything like this since
trying to become a model railroader. I have spent quite a bit so
far, and still have VERY far to go in assembling a decent steam-era
library. I personally feel that books such as these, with tech.
drawings, photos of the cars & locos in service, etc. would be a
good
thing. Some have suggested I try getting hold of the "Train Shed
Cyclopedia" series of books. I remember seeing some of these in a
Walthers catalog at one time. Folks tell me I can pick them up at
shows. that would be great, but I don't get to go to shows.
Do any of ya'll know of a good mail order source for these
books? I do not have access to a local hobby shop to have them
order
them for me from Walthers. Thank you for your advice, replies, etc.

Warren

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Byron,
Wow! and thanks! This is the type of info and encouragement
that I was looking for. I really enjoyed building aircraft and armor kits
in my youth, and was pretty darn good at it too. I just felt that it would
be a simple matter to transfer the skills to model railroad rolling stock.
Why? Well, a highly detailed P-51B looks wonderful, but just sits there. A
1937 ARA boxcar looks wonderful too, but it can do what its prototype did,
which is even better. Now, what I build will do more than collect dust, .
. . hopefully.
Ya'll can call me weird, but I have even thought of building RR kits
(sunshine, Westerfield, etc.) and not even having a model railroad. Seems
no different to me than building 1/72nd scale aircraft, and not having an
airport.
MorningSun has just released a new color book on L&N cars by one of my
sensei's, Steve Johnson, but it only goes as far back as 1945. I may have
to get it anyway.
Getting the cars right for my favorite roads (L&N, NC&StL, and TC) is
not that big of a problem for me as I belong to the L&NRRHS, but it's the
cars for other roads that I fear goofing up. I can't afford to belong to
too many societies, etc. Learning from all of ya'll about other railroads
and their rolling stock is why I'm here on this list. Who knows, one day I
might even be able to answer something for ya'll!

Warren
Ride The Battlefield Route!
Ride The Dixie Line!
NC&StL Rwy.

Why Byron, that was surprisingly informative, and even civil! What's
gotten into you? Did you fall into a vat of honey? If this ever gets
out, your reputation will be ruined!

At 06:35 PM 1/9/01 -0500, you wrote:

Warren,

I think that a couple of people have got you started on the wrong foot.
The Train Sheds are only one small component of a very large library
available to modelers who are interested in freight cars.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

Sorry, I meant for that only to go to Byron, not to the list.
Forgive me.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

Paul Graf of Atlas is looking for photos from which to create the artwork
for other versions of their HO scale pulpwood car. Supposedly the Frisco,
Savannah & Atlanta, IGN, MP, SP and NCStL all had these, and maybe someone
knows of other such cars. (A spotting feature would be the 38 foot IL
between the bulkheads.)
- John Nehrich

At 09:34 AM 1/10/01 -0500, you wrote:

Paul Graf of Atlas is looking for photos from which to create the artwork
for other versions of their HO scale pulpwood car. Supposedly the Frisco,
Savannah & Atlanta, IGN, MP, SP and NCStL all had these, and maybe someone
knows of other such cars. (A spotting feature would be the 38 foot IL
between the bulkheads.)
- John Nehrich

John, "SP" didn't buy any, but T&NO (SP Texas lines) did, as did SSW (aka
Cotton Belt). SP acquired the T&NO cars after the merger. I don't know of
any really good builder photos, but I would LOVE to have both the T&NO and
the SSW versions.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

Paul - Ed Hawkins lists all the regular and bulkhead flats built by ACF
between '43 and '57 were box car red. Now the pulpwood car in question was
homebuilt, but the ACF paint schemes would suggest box car red for these,
too. (And it isn't that flats built after '57 were a different color - they
may or may not have been - but just that Hawkins doesn't have any flats on
this list after that date for ACF.)
In RMJ's Freight Car Models, Vol. II, L&N box cars built by ACF in May
of 1946 were matched to an equal mix of Floquil Box Red and Rich Oxide Red,
and those built only a few months later, in September of that year, were
matched to Accupaint Rich Oxide Brown.
Box cars built earlier by ACF in 1941 were matched to a 75/25 mix of
Floquil Oxide Red/Southern Freight Car Brown, again with black roofs (July
1991 RMJ and also reprinted in their Vol. II).
There were double-door box cars built in January of 1947, featured in
the June 1992 RMJ. A class cars built in January of 1947 was matched to an
equal mix of Accupaint Oxide Brown and Rich Oxide Brown. All components,
except the roof which was black, was painted this color. (Three different
hues in cars built less than a year apart! So take your pick of hues and
then take your pick of which shade of Floquil colors because they shift so
much from batch to batch.)
As for the AN cars, I would guess yellow, but that is just a guess from
the photo. By the way, in '58, the series was 200-249, but none of the AN's
130 cars (flats, gons, and pulpwood cars) were "employed in interchange
service". - John
Now what color red?

Tim - There is a builder's photo of the T&NO car on our Atlas rolling stock
guide
(http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Kits/Atlas-kits.html
#FM) and maybe Atlas will do it. Any photos of the SSW cars? - John

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:43:05 -0500 "Tim O'Connor"
<timoconnor@mediaone.net> writes:

Why Byron, that was surprisingly informative, and even civil! What's
gotten into you? Did you fall into a vat of honey? If this ever gets
out, your reputation will be ruined!

Reputation, what reputation? Everybody who's ever met me knows what a
sweet, even tempered, knowledgeable guy I am. Or is that can be? I
forget.

You must have me confused with somebody else.

But the real answer has to do with the level of discussion at hand. Ask
about learning and I'm a pussy cat. Ask about weathering wood siding on
HO (or even 0) models and I go ballistic. Nature of the beast, I guess.

BSR
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Warren,

Thanks for asking this question - after sitting in on clincs at the
San Jose national and seeing the large attendance by modelers fairly
new to prototype modeling and listening to some of their questions,
I've been working on an article (intended as the first in an ongoing
series on a systematic approach on building a steam era boxcar fleet
for the modeler just getting into prototype modeling). My
premise: "If I was starting from scratch in prototype railroad
modeling and wanted a research library, which items do I absolutely
need that I can readily find at a reasonable price?" As Byron's
detailed in his excellent post, there is a lot out there. Over the
last fifteen years, there has been an explosion in the quantity and
quality of freight car information available - unlike fifteen years
ago, where you were searching for a needle in a haystack because
information you're looking for isn't readily available or surces
haven't been identified yet, today it's the opposite problem - you
have so much information out there that things sometimes get lost in
the volume (this problem I'd much rather have). The challenge for
the new prototype modeler is to "get the most bang for the buck" for
his research material. Unfortunately, there isn't anything nearly as
economical as the Squadron "In Action" series (I also started as a
scale modeler, and still keep a shelf of them when I feel the need
for a change of pace). Byron hit many of the really good pubs out
there - here's a few more:

NEB&W Guide to Steam Era Freight Cars: Even if I weren't a member of
the RPI society, I'd still give this series my highest
recommendation. These represent almost 20 years of research towards
creating a realistic freight car fleet for the NEB&W, growing from a
series of notes made by Todd Sullivan on which prototypes are
represented by which kits. From this beginning, John Nehrich has
expanded and updated these into 4 sizable volumes of information
covering everything from suitability of kits, paint schemes, freight
car evolution, developing a model freight car fleet, etc., etc..
Even though these contain no color photos (an unfortunate by-product
of operating on a shoestring budget provided by the Institute), the
sheer amount of information makes these a great bargain for the
price. One nice feature of the guide is that John takes pains to
reference articles in the hobby press, which makes sifting through
the pile of magazine back issues much less painful. For more info
(an an online guide to steam era freight car kits), go to
http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/ .

Official Railway Equipment Registers: Once only available as
originals on a catch-as-can basis at railroadiana shows (at a premium
price), many of these are now available on CD (various issues -
August 1888 to Janauary 1959, PRR 1893-1926, PRR 1927-1950) from Al
Westerfield (http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/), and the January
1953 issue in paper from the NMRA
(http://jdb.psu.edu/nmra/orer.html). These are listings for all
railroads operating of freight cars in revenue interchange service
and contain a treasure trove of information from number series,
dimensions, specially equipped cars, and interchange connections.
These are not stand alone publications from the modeler's point of
view because they do not contain diagrams or pictures, but they
multiply the effectiveness of the rest of your references because
they give you the big picture. I highly recommend obtaining a copy
of an ORER for the years you're interested in modeling.

Equipment Diagram Books: Many historical societies offer
reproduction equipment diagram books, and Wayner has PRR diagram book
as well. Again, these aren't stand alone because the diagrams are
not scale drawings but general arrangments, but they are an excellent
representation of a particular road's fleet.

Westerfield Data Sheets: Al offers his outstanding decals
separately, and he includes his data sheets with them, which are
easily worth the price of his kits, much less the decals!


Judging from your last post, you're on the right track with the L&N
Historical Society. As for other roads, I'd pick up the first volume
of the NEB&W Guide, a copy of the ORER for the year(s) I'm interested
in from Westerfield, and start with learning more about the roads
that connect with the sections of the L&N, NC&StL, and TC that you're
interested in, as well as the roads with major car fleets (PRR, NYC,
B&O, ATSF, SP).

Welcome aboard! (I also came to the same conclusion about my
aircraft and ship models - I very well couldn't refight the Battle of
Midway with my 1/72 aircraft collection either).


Ben Hom


P.S. - Comments welcome from the list at large - ask yourself the
same question!

Richard sent on some photos of prototypes of the ECW depressed center flats,
and I've posted them on our ECW guide section at:

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Kits/ECW-kits.html#FM

Does anyone have pictures of the Southern cars? Or any others that could be
modeled with this kit?

Thanks, Richard

- John Nehrich

Hi Warren,

I still do play with all those other hobbies, or at least I seem to
collect as many aircraft kits as freight car kits. I'm still waiting for
a chance to sit down and build a 1/48 A-36 Apache with dive brakes
deployed. I don't need an airfield for it, just a clear spot in my
oversized and underfilled display case.

'Sfunny, years ago I used to think how far behind model railroading the
airplane modelers were, since we had people like Westerfield and Sunshine
and Gould and Grandt producing those super-detailed kits and all they had
were Airfix and Frog. Well, today the tables are turned, they have
Tamiya, Hasegawa, Accurate Miniatures (who was founded with an excellent
model railroader on staff), Eduard, Verlinden, etc., etc., etc. And
about 50 smaller companies producing all kind of decals and super-detail
sets. Admittedly we now have Life-Like and Atlas and InterMountain, but
nobody is offering parts or kits to improve on the out-of-the box models
available. The knowledge is there; you just have to look at a roster of
the people on this list. But apparently there are too few of us
clamoring for those types of kits so common to the other hobbies and even
our own N gauge brethren!

Okay, I'm off my soap box.

I was going to mention the usefulness of the Historical Societies toward
filling your request. But didn't. Sorry. The problem is that some are
excellent at presenting freight car info, others abysmal. I once wrote
to the editor of one large east coast society which was about two years
behind at the time, offering freight car photos matching a just released
box car kit as a way to put out some useful issues in a hurry. I still
cherish the response I got from him to the effect that 10-12 years
previously he did a freight car issue and got so much vehement feedback
from older members who didn't give a s--t about freight cars, they wanted
more employee biographies and station articles. The L&N society is kinda
middle of the pack in that they print a single freight car photo each
issue with some data. Usually it's not quite enough for modeling, but I
guess it's better than nothing.

Believe it or not, there is a society devoted exclusively to freight
cars. I believe it's called the Society of Freight Car Historians and
run by David Casdorph out of his home on California. Unfortunately,
Daves interests don't quite coincide with those of steam era modelers or
railfans so very few of us bother to keep up with his publications. Even
back when he was trying, some of his publications left something to be
desired; he did a monograph on reefers that made me cry.

Don't kiss off the Morning Sun books too fast. Although the books
insistence on color photography seems to preclude their value to us, look
twice. Most of the books have a healthy supply of photos from the 50s
which include many, many 20s and 30s built cars. But sometimes you have
to look in the maintenance of way section to see them.

One last item to leave you with: remember that any railroads cars could
be seen on any other railroad at any given time. Don't become a snob who
won't even look at a west coast or northeast car because you model the
southeast. Cars got around, true some more than others, but they did get
around. A great man once said that if you model any railroad you also
model the Pennsy. Remember that, unless you belong to the Western
Pennsylvania Model Railroad Historical Society. But that's another very
long story.

Byron

P.S. By 1937 they were AAR box cars.


On Tue, 9 Jan 2001 21:37:32 -0600 <ibs4421@commandnet.net> writes:

Byron,
Wow! and thanks! This is the type of info and
encouragement
that I was looking for. I really enjoyed building aircraft and
armor kits
in my youth, and was pretty darn good at it too. I just felt that
it would
be a simple matter to transfer the skills to model railroad rolling
stock.
Why? Well, a highly detailed P-51B looks wonderful, but just sits
there. A
1937 ARA boxcar looks wonderful too, but it can do what its
prototype did,
which is even better. Now, what I build will do more than collect
dust, .
. . hopefully.
Ya'll can call me weird, but I have even thought of building RR
kits
(sunshine, Westerfield, etc.) and not even having a model railroad.
Seems
no different to me than building 1/72nd scale aircraft, and not
having an
airport.
MorningSun has just released a new color book on L&N cars by
one of my
sensei's, Steve Johnson, but it only goes as far back as 1945. I
may have
to get it anyway.
Getting the cars right for my favorite roads (L&N, NC&StL, and
TC) is
not that big of a problem for me as I belong to the L&NRRHS, but
it's the
cars for other roads that I fear goofing up. I can't afford to
belong to
too many societies, etc. Learning from all of ya'll about other
railroads
and their rolling stock is why I'm here on this list. Who knows,
one day I
might even be able to answer something for ya'll!

Warren
Ride The Battlefield Route!
Ride The Dixie Line!
NC&StL Rwy.

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