Date   

Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"

bhom3@...
 

Guys, thanks for the assist. I know that the UP cars are not USRA
derived (and it was the MM articles that prompted the question).
What I'm trying to do is to get a better picture of USRA DS "clones";
i.e., similar 40 ft DS XM. Built in the early 1920s, they share many
characteristics with the USRA design, with the major difference being
7-8 vice 5-5-5 Murphy ends. By the 7/50 ORER, the clones outnumbered
the remaining USRA allocated cars (USRA DS XM - 4676; "Clones",
including FEC VM and Wabash auto boxcar rebuilds - 6251). The UP
cars don't fit as neatly into this grouping, having 5-5-5 ends and
the proprietary underframes.

So to make a long story short, I'm trying to determine how close the
two groups of cars are to (a) see if simply substituting 7-8 Murphy
ends on an existing USRA DS XM kit is worth the effort as (b) the
feasibility of convincing Accurail to make a run of cars with the 7-8
ends as they did with their single sheathed cars.

Ben


Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

Shawn Beckert
 

Richard "Dawn Patrol" Hendrickson wrote:

...Like it or not, a whole lot more people are
interested in P-51s or even Westland Lysanders
(let's see how many people on this list recognize
that one!) than in PS-1's or R-40-23's.
Me, for one. Butt ugly airplane; for looks I'll take
the Hawker Sea Fury, since we're talking British
aircraft. Different function, of course.

Mandatory Freight Car Content (do we have that here?):
Remember the little booklets that Westside used to put
out on the prototype history of some of their brass
imports? What if someone were to take the same approach
to freight cars, say a small publication on Type 21 or
Type 27 tank cars, or the PS-1, since I mentioned it?

Surely you could sell enough of those amongst us purists
to make a profit from it?

Shawn Beckert


Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Ben - Good luck, but I don't think they are going to go to that length. (Of
course, I'd like to see the inward Murphy, maybe a 7/7, on their DS car, and
then I could make believe its close enough for Rutland).
But while on the subject of Accurail, I'd think that a more likely
possibility is
1) a steel rebuild four panel sides (total 9 if you count the door as a
"panel") with the bracketted bottom sill on the SS car, and
2) a 7 panel Howe truss version with both the composite and Murphy end
and wood and steel door. (In other words, a rehash of the Train Miniature
car.)
Visually these would be a more dramatic difference than the subtle end
change. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: <bhom3@home.com>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 3:18 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"


Guys, thanks for the assist. I know that the UP cars are not USRA
derived (and it was the MM articles that prompted the question).
What I'm trying to do is to get a better picture of USRA DS "clones";
i.e., similar 40 ft DS XM. Built in the early 1920s, they share many
characteristics with the USRA design, with the major difference being
7-8 vice 5-5-5 Murphy ends. By the 7/50 ORER, the clones outnumbered
the remaining USRA allocated cars (USRA DS XM - 4676; "Clones",
including FEC VM and Wabash auto boxcar rebuilds - 6251). The UP
cars don't fit as neatly into this grouping, having 5-5-5 ends and
the proprietary underframes.

So to make a long story short, I'm trying to determine how close the
two groups of cars are to (a) see if simply substituting 7-8 Murphy
ends on an existing USRA DS XM kit is worth the effort as (b) the
feasibility of convincing Accurail to make a run of cars with the 7-8
ends as they did with their single sheathed cars.

Ben


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Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

I don't know anything about military modeling or equipment, so let me know
if my assumptions are off-base.

Isn't the magnitude of the problem much different between military
equipment (armor, aircraft, ships) and freight cars. I mean, for a given
piece of armor, how many paint schemes were there? Three or four? Now
take, for example, a PS-1. Now we're talking about a LOT of paint
schemes. And what, 12 (or more?) different variations.

In addition, I'm guessing that there are a lot more different kinds of
freight cars to be covered. A lot of roads had cars built in their own
shops that aren't very similar to anyone else's car.

I would expect to see something about diesels long before we see such
books about freight cars, as the "diesel problem" is much more tractable.

Regards,

-Jeff



On Jan 11, 12:41pm, <ibs4421@commandnet.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias
Question: What is the Squadron series like? I've never modeled
anything
but railroads, so I'm not familiar with the data contained therein.

Jeff,
First, the line is from "A Freightcar Named Desire".

The Squadron "In Action" series is arranged thusly: Horizontal
format
softcover books dedicated to one particular subject, usually about 50
pages
in length, and LOADED with B&W photos with good, concise captions
beneath
each one detailing time, location, etc. inaddition to anything of
particular
interest to the modeler. In addition there are ususally several scale
drawings in three views and also some detailing certain areas of the
a/c,
armor, or ship in question that provide good detail for the modeler, in
addition to detail differences between certain production models. The
center spread consists of several renderings of the subject in profile,
but
in color to show color variations, paint schemes, etc.
--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

Once, when I was in Pleasanton, I had dinner with a publisher of railroad
books. He indicated an interest in publishing the book. I think somebody
else at the table knew the Metcalfes and was going to contact them and see
if 1) the first UP book could be reprinted, and 2) if the second book
could be finished and printed.

I wonder what became of these discussions...

Regards,

-Jeff


On Jan 11, 11:36am, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

What we really need is Terry Metcalfe's second UP freight car book,
which
exists (substantially complete, I think) in MS form. His daughter, who
is
a publications professional, understandably wanted to complete it after
his
unfortunate and untimely death, but I understand she has now concluded
that
she lacks both the time and the RR knowledge to do so and there is some
prospect that, under the guidance of Terry's long-time friend and
collaborator Bill Metzger, it will eventually be published. Let's hope
so!

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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-- End of excerpt from Richard Hendrickson


--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Also I'm not sure the other hobbies have something akin to an ORER to let
one track car series. (Okay, maybe something like Jane's Fighting Ships or
what - not my hobby, so I'm not sure - but certainly I would not think for
armour.) - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Aley - GCD PE" <jaley@pcocd2.intel.com>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias


I don't know anything about military modeling or equipment, so let me know
if my assumptions are off-base.

Isn't the magnitude of the problem much different between military
equipment (armor, aircraft, ships) and freight cars. I mean, for a given
piece of armor, how many paint schemes were there? Three or four? Now
take, for example, a PS-1. Now we're talking about a LOT of paint
schemes. And what, 12 (or more?) different variations.

In addition, I'm guessing that there are a lot more different kinds of
freight cars to be covered. A lot of roads had cars built in their own
shops that aren't very similar to anyone else's car.

I would expect to see something about diesels long before we see such
books about freight cars, as the "diesel problem" is much more tractable.

Regards,

-Jeff



On Jan 11, 12:41pm, <ibs4421@commandnet.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias
Question: What is the Squadron series like? I've never modeled
anything
but railroads, so I'm not familiar with the data contained therein.

Jeff,
First, the line is from "A Freightcar Named Desire".

The Squadron "In Action" series is arranged thusly: Horizontal
format
softcover books dedicated to one particular subject, usually about 50
pages
in length, and LOADED with B&W photos with good, concise captions
beneath
each one detailing time, location, etc. inaddition to anything of
particular
interest to the modeler. In addition there are ususally several scale
drawings in three views and also some detailing certain areas of the
a/c,
armor, or ship in question that provide good detail for the modeler, in
addition to detail differences between certain production models. The
center spread consists of several renderings of the subject in profile,
but
in color to show color variations, paint schemes, etc.
--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Re: Train Shed Cyclopedia

Shawn Beckert
 

Jeff Aley wrote, in part:

Isn't the magnitude of the problem much different
between military equipment (armor, aircraft, ships)
and freight cars. I mean, for a given piece of
armor, how many paint schemes were there? Three or
four? Now take, for example, a PS-1. Now we're
talking about a LOT of paint schemes. And what, 12
(or more?) different variations.
Actually there's more similarity than you might think.
Aircraft (say, a P-51) and armor (say, an M-3 tank)
changed in appearance as time went by and modifications
in design were incorporated into the production line.
Think of the FT, and compare how it looked next to the
F-9 went it went into production. As far as paint, colors
and variations of colors changed with time, theater of
service, and the different countries that owned that piece
of equipment.

One nice thing about the Squadron books is that they will
usually give you a line drawing of most, if not all, the
variations that a particular plane or tank had, as well
as a great many paint schemes. Much the same thing could
be done with the PS-1 boxcar. Not so much paint schemes, as
we can readily find photos for that, but design differences
such as doors, ends, brake gear, etc.

The idea is that instead of articles on the PS-1 appearing
in a continuing series of magazine issues, put that same kind
of information (with more detail) between two softbound covers
and include everything known to date about the car. So what if it
didn't have all the bits of information that might be floating
around out there - you could always do a second volume; Squadron
has certainly done that enough times.

Wouldn't it be nice, instead of having to search through half a
dozen magazines for info on the PS-1, to have everything known
to date about the car between two soft covers, in one place?

Shawn Beckert


Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

Richard Hendrickson
 

I don't know anything about military modeling or equipment, so let me know
if my assumptions are off-base.

Isn't the magnitude of the problem much different between military
equipment (armor, aircraft, ships) and freight cars. I mean, for a given
piece of armor, how many paint schemes were there? Three or four? Now
take, for example, a PS-1. Now we're talking about a LOT of paint
schemes. And what, 12 (or more?) different variations.
Hello? Earth to Jeff. I'm no expert on armor, but I do know a good bit
about aircraft, and I can assure you that there were endless variations on
equipment,paint, insignia, etc. even on relatively low production aircraft,
not to mention planes that were built by the thousands like the P-51, B-25,
B-17, etc. Documenting the variations on PS-1s would be child's play
compared to doing the same for, say, Curtiss P-40s, which had twenty-some
major production variants, were used by many allied air forces, and
appeared in so many paint schemes that it's a monumental task to document
even the ones for which photographic and other evidence survives.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

thompson@...
 

Surely you could sell enough of those amongst us purists
to make a profit from it?
I'm watching this thread alertly to see intereste level and if there are
any authors out there. Hardly any books materialize just cuz someone wants
'em.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

Okay, I'll stand corrected. So the implication here is that this is *NOT*
an intractable problem, and it should be possible to create such a beast.

Perhaps we should start a clamor for these booklets?

On Jan 11, 3:41pm, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias
I don't know anything about military modeling or equipment, so let me
know
if my assumptions are off-base.

Isn't the magnitude of the problem much different between military
equipment (armor, aircraft, ships) and freight cars. I mean, for a
given
piece of armor, how many paint schemes were there? Three or four? Now
take, for example, a PS-1. Now we're talking about a LOT of paint
schemes. And what, 12 (or more?) different variations.
Hello? Earth to Jeff. I'm no expert on armor, but I do know a good bit
about aircraft, and I can assure you that there were endless variations
on
equipment,paint, insignia, etc. even on relatively low production
aircraft,
not to mention planes that were built by the thousands like the P-51,
B-25,
B-17, etc. Documenting the variations on PS-1s would be child's play
compared to doing the same for, say, Curtiss P-40s, which had
twenty-some
major production variants, were used by many allied air forces, and
appeared in so many paint schemes that it's a monumental task to
document
even the ones for which photographic and other evidence survives.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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-- End of excerpt from Richard Hendrickson


--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

ibs4421@...
 

So right Tony. Somebody's going to have to pony up the bucks. I'm sure you
know this as well as anybody. It did seem to me, however, in looking at
issues of RMC and MR that there seems to be a lot more money changing hands,
and available out there in model rr'ing land than there is in scale plastic
model land. Obviously somebody is spending the big bucks on some of the
many, many books being published out there. There's a whole new crop of
books it seems every month. Well, it was just a thought. I'm a danger to
myself and others at times when I get to thinking. I sure didn't mean for
the thread to take off into parts unknown.

Warren Dickinson

I'm watching this thread alertly to see intereste level and if there are
any authors out there. Hardly any books materialize just cuz someone wants
'em.


Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Aley - GCD PE [mailto:jaley@pcocd2.intel.com]
Comments: It seems to me that there are two questions that the beginning
prototype modeler might ask himself (or herself).

1) What should I model?
2) How do I model it?
It behooves one to
know what kits and scratchbuilding supplies are available and applicable.
Know? Aye and therein lies the rub: Most every manufacturer will lie. Yes,
the economics are (sympathetically) well known, but the word IMO, by and
large, is 'lie'. My advice for the newbie is this: regard every paint job
with the same degree of trust as one would have for your average 3 card
monte professional. Focus on the structure, not the paint job. With the
resin mfr's you've an extremely high degree of confidence it is what the box
says it is. P2K gets high marks, but not perfect. Branchline (save their
big goof), also, and a tip og the hat for dating their box. Everybody else,
to one degree or another, has a lie to sell -- some truths too, but how
would the ignorant consumer know? So knowledge will often be purchased in
unexpected and not always happy ways. And having reached this point then
go look much more carefully at the books you've bought.

Dave Nelson


Re: Specialty Books (was Train Shed Cycs)

Shawn Beckert
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

I'm watching this thread alertly to see interest
level and if there are any authors out there. Hardly
any books materialize just cuz someone wants 'em.
(Sigh). Ok Tony, you have both written and published, as
have some others here, probably. You're familiar, I'm sure,
with the Westside publications mentioned earlier. Maybe
6" by 8", 30-40 pages at most. What would be the costs
involved with something that size? Forget authorship just
now, we can twist Richard's or Ed Hawkins' arm later. The
real issue is money, isn't it?

We know the material is out there, probably right within
the members of this list. Is it really that expensive to
put a *small* specialized book together? How many would you
have to sell to make it worthwhile?

Shawn Beckert


Re: Specialty Books (was Train Shed Cycs)

thompson@...
 

(Sigh). Ok Tony, you have both written and published, as
have some others here, probably. You're familiar, I'm sure,
with the Westside publications mentioned earlier. Maybe
6" by 8", 30-40 pages at most. ...Is it really that expensive to
put a *small* specialized book together? How many would you
have to sell to make it worthwhile?
At the risk of boring the list, here's a quick set of estimates.
Since so small a booklet would be expected to have a low price, you
probably couldn't sell it for more than $8 or $10 (just a guess), certainly
not anything like $15. It could likely be produced for prepress and print
costs of around a buck and a half, two bucks at most. Sounds good, right?
Well, the publisher only gets $6 of the $10, if that's the price, and pays
a buck to the author. There's usually around a buck a copy for storage,
advertising, other overheads etc., so the publisher might net around $2 a
copy. I don't doubt we can sell a thousand or so of such publications in a
couple of years time, so about a thousand dollars a year return. Not
terribly attractive unless we can produce it with very little time on our
part. Even then, it's a dinky profit, for us and for the stores that sell
it.
Bigger books take a lot more time to produce and cost a lot more to
print, but proportionately command a substantially bigger price. Book
publishers are in a little of the same bind as auto makers: Cadillacs are
more rewarding to sell than Chevies.
That's not to say that booklets can't be viable in our field, only that
the economic return isn't terribly exciting. Unless I'm wrong about the
market... because selling 10 or 20 thousand would change things quite a
bit.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Digest Number 32

Paul Kattner
 

even Westland Lysanders (let's see how >many people on this list recognize that one!)......Westland Lysander-British High wing monoplane originally intended to serve as an artillery spotting aircraft but was rather over engineered for that purpose. Wound up carrying supplies and covert operatives to France during the Nazi occupation in support of the French Resistance and intelligence gathering capabilities. Had superb short field capabilities....Am I close?

Have a Good Day
Paul Kattner
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


Re: 38 foot IL Commonwealth pulpwood cars

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 1/12/01 5:11:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ggg9y@virginia.edu writes:

<< Some of the SP wood racks are still around in MOW service. Many have
been converted to tie service. I saw some year before last in Reno. >>

Garth & Tim,

The SP cars in Sparks went to Roseville in the midst of the UP takeover.
These two cars were used in "snap track" service as Garth mentioned. Long
ago I searched the underframes for the original T&NO numbers and was unable
to find any info.

If Atlas needs original numbering and/or SP merger numbers of the T&NO P
classes, I can help.

Kind Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada


Re: 38 foot IL Commonwealth pulpwood cars

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

Some of the SP wood racks are still around in MOW service. Many have
been converted to tie service. I saw some year before last in Reno.
There are two in the Roseville wreck train that carry "snap track" for
emergency shoeflies. These are painted in really snappy Daylight colors.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Tim O'Connor wrote:

John, "SP" didn't buy any, but T&NO (SP Texas lines) did, as did SSW (aka
Cotton Belt). SP acquired the T&NO cars after the merger. I don't know of
any really good builder photos, but I would LOVE to have both the T&NO and
the SSW versions.


Re: Specialty Books (was Train Shed Cycs)

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Shawn:

I wrote and sold three small monographs of the type you describe. They
were produced on a shoestring and were pretty low quality: 5X8 inch
size, maximum 36 pages, paper covers, saddle stitched, photocopy
reproduction. They cost me between $1-2 each in runs of 100-150. I
believe I could have upped the quality and had real printing for a bit
more, but would also have had to take larger press runs.

Of my three books, I sold about 1,000 copies of the largest and first at
about $4 wholesale over two years. The second I sold two runs of about
200 at $3. The third was only about 100 at $2.50. They certainly paid
for themselves, and I had a lot of fun, but ...

Such a project is "doable", though it is a lot of trouble. Don't forget
that you have to get business licenses, tax certificates, file extra
income statements with the IRS, and pay any state or local sales taxes
you collect. My city even tried to tax my kitchen table where I produced
these things as a business asset!

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

"Beckert, Shawn" wrote:

(Sigh). Ok Tony, you have both written and published, as
have some others here, probably. You're familiar, I'm sure,
with the Westside publications mentioned earlier. Maybe
6" by 8", 30-40 pages at most. What would be the costs
involved with something that size? Forget authorship just
now, we can twist Richard's or Ed Hawkins' arm later. The
real issue is money, isn't it?

We know the material is out there, probably right within
the members of this list. Is it really that expensive to
put a *small* specialized book together? How many would you
have to sell to make it worthwhile?


Sunshine rebuilt USRA xm's

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Ben Hom just sent me a section about the rebuilt xm kits, which I've posted
on our Sunshine kit section. Martin has said it's okay to post pictures and
text from his flyers (which I find are a pain to read on the hard copy, as
they come wrapped in the kit box and take on a permanent curl - hmmm, maybe
I should get an iron.), but if anyone else wants to get involved, even just
scanning in the photos and placing the finished kit on a scanner, we all
would benefit. (Thanks, too, Tim, Richard, and Spen, for your photos and
David for all the information.) - John


Re: 38 foot IL Commonwealth pulpwood cars

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Guy,

It was on the same trip two years ago (IIRC) that I saw similar cars at
both Sparks and Roseville. The Roseville cars may have come from Sparks,
but they must have been moved well before the merger. I remember seeing
the Daylight cars with the crane and other wreck train cars several
years ago in their usual place at the west yard, far beyond camera
range. During the UP's rebuilding at Roseville, the whole wreck train
was moved to a spot just behind the Roseville Telephone Company
buildings and could easily be seen and photographed from public
property. On my last trip out there in May, they were gone.

I have some pretty good shots of these two cars, should anybody need
them, though this paint scheme isn't suitable for what Atlas wants.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

guycwilber@aol.com wrote:


In a message dated 1/12/01 5:11:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ggg9y@virginia.edu writes:

<< Some of the SP wood racks are still around in MOW service. Many have
been converted to tie service. I saw some year before last in Reno. >>

Garth & Tim,

The SP cars in Sparks went to Roseville in the midst of the UP takeover.
These two cars were used in "snap track" service as Garth mentioned. Long
ago I searched the underframes for the original T&NO numbers and was unable
to find any info.

If Atlas needs original numbering and/or SP merger numbers of the T&NO P
classes, I can help.

Kind Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada

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