Date   

Re: Complaint

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike Brock wrote:

Tom Madden responds to Byron Rose's first post with:

The local RPA wrote:
Which is all he really needed to say. Unlike most other lists, the STMFC has
an RPA. This is good. Someone...Richard probably knows who...wrote that "you
can't go back". But, in this case, he appears to be wrong.
It was Tom Wolfe who wrote "you can't go home again," though the idea
itself wasn't original with him. Many of us wouldn't want to go home again
if we could. But most, if not all, of those on this list are probably
model railroaders out of nostalgia for an earlier era of prototype
railroading. I can tell you from recent experience that a ca. 1953
operating session on the Tehachapi layout in San Diego is the closest thing
to a time machine I ever expect to experience. Running the Grand Canyon up
the hill from Caliente with a timetable in my pocket and a couple of form
19s in my hand is, as Yogi Berra aptly (if redundantly) put it, "deja vu
all over again." And having a troll under the bridge makes it that much
better. So we're fortunate to have our own antiquated troll under the
bridge on this list. Welcome back, Byron.

BTW, as moderator, I decree that express reefers can be discussed on this
list. Yes, they operated frequently on passenger...or mail...trains. But,
they also frequently hauled produce of one form or another...and they are
found in the ORER.
Express reefers were often found in freight trains - there's lots of
documentary evidence for this - when carrying cargoes that weren't
time-sensitive or on empty back hauls. So there's no need to rationalize
discussing them here, unless you're into rationalizing for its own sake.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Complaint

byronrose@...
 

Thank you Tom, I'm glad to see that someone on this list is not only
paying attention, but . . . . What was the question again?

On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:35:55 -0700 "Gail & Tom Madden"
<tgmadden@...> writes:
The local RPA wrote:

What is the easiest way to model fingerprints on the inside of grab
irons?
Claim your trainmen always wore gloves and forget about it.
Thats a cop-out if I ever heard one. Remind me not to buy any of your
p____r car kits. Oh, that's right, you never made any. Okay, I'll wait
for the tank car underframes.


What size were the knot holes in the decks of USRA flat cars still
in
service in the 40s?
There were not holes in the decks, except those made by knails.
I have photographs that show knot holes. All I want to know is what was
the recommended size of them. Is that too much to ask?


What size were the pivot pins on 1920s era coupler knuckles?
A meaningless question. The pivot pins were not "on" the coupler
knuckles -
they were a separate part. If you're going to be a useful
contributor to
this group you'll have to be more precise.
Let me rephrase that question: What size were the pivot pins used with
1920s era coupler knuckles?


What was the wall thickness of the piping used in the AB brakes
added to
PRR X-29 boxcars in 1948?
Schedule 40 or Schedule 80?
That's a part of my question. If I knew the answer to that I could look
it up in my Funk and Wagnells.


What was the relative strength of Youngstown ends vs Dreadnaught
ends vs
Despatch Shop ends vs Pullman PS-1 ends, with complete structural
analysis?
I'll have to look that up. I believe the testing was done by Mighty
Joe Youngstown.
Tom, I think you made that name up. I'm glad I didn't say Murphy end or
you'd give me some name like Murphy Chowderhead. But thanks for taking
the time to look it up for me. I will be anxiously awaiting your reply.


Where did the pigments come from that were used in making the green
paint
on EJ&E box cars?
Joliet. Or Elgin.
Finally, a real answer. Thank you. But do you have an address? I'd
like to pick some up next time I'm in Joliet for a box car I'm building
from scratch. Or is that scratching to build? I always forget.

How old were the pipe fitters who added the AB brakes to that PRR
X-29 in 1948?

Very young. That job was given to those who had only learned the
first few letters of the alphabet.
I guess you had to have more seniority to work on K brakes.


What RRs box cars were used to ship Firestone tires in the 30s?
Did they blow out then too?

Only if they were inflated. But inflation was very low during the
depression, so it wasn't a problem.
And I suppose there were very few explorers then too. But you didn't
answer the first part of the question.


What was the temperature of the crushed ices used in SFRD reefers
in the 20s? 30s? Were the cars shaken or stirred?
In the 20s it varied - I believe it was a cube function. In 1933
President
Roosevelt devalued the farenheit. From then on ice was able to
adjust its
temperature to the needs of the load.
But this time you didn't answer the third part of the question.


How were the light bulb packed in those GE covered hoppers?
You mean the ones that lit whenever a hatch was lifted?
Yes.


What railroads box cars had the fuzziest wood siding?
The Santa Fe had a one-of reefer that was kind of fluffy. Otherwise,
I can
put you in touch with a fellow who used to be associated with AMB,
who might be able to help you out.
Yeah, like the same way I came in?


Good to be on a list with you again, Byron!
Tom, you can call me BS. And you're welcome.

BS


Mike, this is another one of the posts you can remove from the archives!

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Re: Complaint

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Oh, that's right, you never made any. Okay, I'll wait for the tank car
underframes<

Speaking of tank car frames I have all these tanks waiting--------!

Might be a good time for Mike to state whether Way cars, er Cabooses,
are within our freight car topics. Also are we going to include Drover
cars? Some heavy questions for the moderator to decide!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Car Movement Database

Jeff English
 

Since I'm not sure if this list is being kept secret from the FCL,
but I thought both lists would find this info of interest, here's a
"blind copy" of my response to an inquiry prompted by an earlier
post of mine on the FCL:

"Dave & Libby Nelson" <muskoka@...> wrote:

Jeff, what are the starting and ending dates in your car movement
database?

Dave Nelson
Dave, I'm copying my reply to your inquiry to the FCL so others
may know what I'm drawing from. It's a polyglot mix of data from:

Switch Lists for Train #9 westbound out of Alburgh, Vermont, 9-21-
42 through 12-31-42, 5443 cars

Report of Cars Arrived, Ordered, Placed & Released at Alburgh,
Vermont, 3-6-48 through 6-30-48, 574 cars

Report of Waybills Received at Ellenburg, NY, 7-2-51 through 8-28-
52, 1394 cars

Agent's notes on cars placed for interchange at Rouses Point, NY,
7-17-57 through 9-16-58, 2654 cars

Interchange Reports at Bellows Falls, Vermont, 1-1-61 through 9-
21-61, 9222 cars

Also a catch-all list which includes identifiable cars in photos at
locations on the Rutland and a smattering of individual waybills,
etc., for all eras up to 9-21-61 not present on my current hard disk,
1236 cars.
That makes a grand total of 20,523 cars.

I also have been sitting on a few boxes of papers for several
years now which I still need to digitize, including: more Switch
Lists for Train #9 at Alburgh, for random 6-month periods (that's
how they were bundled) in the 50s, and a complete 12-month set of
Interchange Reports for the year 1949 at Rouses Point, NY, where
the Rutland interchanged with the CN, CV, D&H and Napierville
Junction (D&H's Canadian subsidiary). This latter body of data
appears to be somewhere between 10 and 20 thousand cars by
itself, while the 6-month bundles contain about 5 to 8 thousand
cars' worth of data each.
I haven't worked on any of this since I started researching NYC
box cars in earnest.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Car Movement Database

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jeff English writes:

Since I'm not sure if this list is being kept secret from the FCL,
Guys, given part of the stated objective of this list...."Emphasis is to be
placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of producing models of them
with as great a degree of accuracy as possible", I see no reason why anyone
on the FCL [ as I am ] should be upset or concerned with the existence of
this group. In fact, it may reduce conflicts that might arise on the FCL due
to posters [ I am not aware that posters on the FCL have any requirement
that FCL discussions relate to modeling with the intent to be as accurate as
possible { that, BTW, doesn't imply great accuracy...just an ATTEMPT to
achieve accuracy }] having different objectives. Therefore, secrecy is not a
need...at least as far as I am concerned. This group is likewise not meant
to insult or demean the FCL in any way.

Mike Brock
STMFC moderator


Cabeese

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jon Miller writes:


Might be a good time for Mike to state whether Way cars, er Cabooses,
are within our freight car topics. Also are we going to include Drover
cars? Some heavy questions for the moderator to decide!
Alas, the poor caboose. Usually...but not always assigned to the rear of a
train, it has no real home in the various lists. It isn't really a frt car,
nor can it be considered a passenger car [ assuming passengers are not RR
employees ]. I doubt we could really call it part of MOW nor would many
consider it a steam locomotive...although it often burned coal. Some
contemporary modelers probably think it's a diesel [ whatever that is ], but
few real railroaders would conclude that. So, given the fact that it usually
carried way bills for the frt cars in a train [ a cargo of sorts ], I'm
going to allow discussions about cabeese to be included....unless, of
course, there is strong opposition. Yeh, let's include drovers. Can't
imagine them being considered as people...ooops, passengers.

Mike Brock
STMFC moderator....when do I get to talk about frt cars?


Re: Complaint

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Dec 14, 1:37am, byronrose@... wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Complaint

What size were the knot holes in the decks of USRA flat cars still in
service in the 40s?
They ranged from 1.25 to 2.5 inches. Larger knot holes would have caused
the wood to be a different grade and thus unsuitable for flat car decks.
[*].

Coincidentally, for those who model in HO scale, basswood exhibits knots
that are exactly to scale for this application. Therefore we see that (as
usual) wood is the best material to use if one wants to model wood. [**]

Regards,

-Jeff

[*]: Not really. I made this up.
[**]: I am reminded of the sport of "bear baiting"...

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Freight Cars vs Glue

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Dec 13, 11:06pm, Mike Brock wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Freight Cars vs Glue
There is, in fact, a
newly developed glue that apparently will, for the first time, allow
details
such as those produced by Detail Associates to be easily attached to
styrene.
And has Mike Rose revealed to the world the name of his so-called miracle
adhesive? Until he does, I can only assume that it's made by Wrigleys.

I have, by the way, tried using "Poly-Zap", which is supposed to be able
to bond "space-age" plastics. [When did the space age start? 40 years
ago?] I attempted to glue two Athearn 33" freight car wheels
face-to-face. As a control, I also glued two more wheels with ordinary
Zap CA. I did not notice any difference between the strength of the Zap
bond vs the Polly Zap bond when I broke the wheels apart [by hand, so I
don't have numerical data].

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Branchline box cars

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

Oooh, looky, some real FC questions:

What's the latest on Branchline freight cars?

Are the 40' [as opposed to 41'] box cars available yet?

Do they have a version of their 50' box car that has a 10'6" IH and 4/4
early IDE's that can be used to model the UP A-50-18 and A-50-21?

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


List Access by Others

Shawn Beckert
 

Mike Brock wrote, in part:

...secrecy is not a need...at least as far as I'm
concerned. This group is likewise not meant to
insult or demean the FCL in any way.
Mike, and List:

I hesitated a great deal before posting this, but I
feel it needs doing - I watched with concern last
week as the unfortunate debate over the "B" word got
hotter with each posting. I even attempted to inject
a little levity to try and cool things down, and just
ended up looking foolish.

I know this list was formed as a direct result of what
happened this past weekend, and I feel fortunate to be
included as a "charter" member. But I do have a real
concern about this list being common knowledge. This
list was created (I think) for the express purpose of
getting away from the newcomers and "Christmas Tree"
modelers. And I agree with that reasoning. But I also
have a concern that if the list is not restricted, at
least somewhat, you're going to have the same type of
people migrate here. And eventually there will be an
altercation of some kind, and the whole nasty cycle
will start over again.

I don't want to sound like there needs to be a "bouncer"
for this list, nor would I want to be a judge over who's
here and who isn't. But just so you know, I don't intend
to breathe a word of this list to anyone. Ever.

Having said all this,I will not bring the subject up again.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Car Movement Database

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

From: Jeff English [mailto:englij@...]

Report of Waybills Received at Ellenburg, NY, 7-2-51 through 8-28-
52, 1394 cars
Would you be interested in a data swap?

If you can send me a spreadsheet list of the car initial & number from the
above, I'll return to you on the following day the corresponding ORER data
for each pre April 1950 car in the list.

I'm kicking around some ideas about sampling data and how it relates to
ones own car roster. I've got 1000+ cars off a Southern Rwy conductors book
and am working towards another 1000 or so cars recorded by a UP conductor.
Data from a third region would be a useful.

And if you'd rather not, okay. I understand. I'm sure I'll acquire another
useful conductors book.

Dave Nelson


Re: Tank Car Traffic

Richard Hendrickson
 

Jeff, In further contemplating the UOCX car you identified as being on the
Rutland, I realized that you found it in

Switch Lists for Train #9 westbound out of Alburgh, Vermont, 9-21-
42 through 12-31-42, 5443 cars
So I'm not so surprised, after all. That was a period when there was still
a desparate shortage of tank cars, the feds had essentially pooled all
available tank cars to transport crude oil to eastern refineries while the
"big inch" and "little inch" pipelines were being constructed, and all bets
were off regarding where the cars of a particular owner might turn up.
Also, the gasoline business was off in the west (owing to severe
rationing), so Union might well have had surplus cars which went to the
government pool.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Branchline box cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Oooh, looky, some real FC questions:

What's the latest on Branchline freight cars?

Are the 40' [as opposed to 41'] box cars available yet?
No. It's my understanding that the tooling is finished, but (with only one
molding machine) BL has a BIG backlog of kits that have been promised but
aren't yet available - wood reefers, express reefers, etc. etc.

Do they have a version of their 50' box car that has a 10'6" IH and 4/4
early IDE's that can be used to model the UP A-50-18 and A-50-21?
Yes, and some of these kits have been produced, though not with UP
paint/lettering. In fact, their catalog doesn't show UP as one of the
future versions. Might be a golden opportunity to do a UP Historical
Society convention car, or something of the sort. Bill Schneider is very
easy to work with on a project of this kind, as I found when negotiating
for the convention cars for the San Jose NMRA convention.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Tank Car Traffic

Shawn Beckert
 

While we're on the subject:

Were the cars of the big lessor/owners, like UTLX, SHPX
and GATX assigned regionally, or were cars simply leased
out to companies wherever they might be? I'm curious to
know if the cars that Mr. English documented on the East
Coast would have tended to stay in that area.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Tank Car Traffic

Richard Hendrickson
 

While we're on the subject:

Were the cars of the big lessor/owners, like UTLX, SHPX
and GATX assigned regionally, or were cars simply leased
out to companies wherever they might be? I'm curious to
know if the cars that Mr. English documented on the East
Coast would have tended to stay in that area.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some cars were on long-term leases and
remained in the service of the same shipper (and often on the same routes)
year after year. Some of these cars were stenciled with the shipper's
logo, but most were not. Other cars were leased on a short-term basis,
sometimes for only a single trip, and once they were returned to the car
owner's pool, cleaned, and serviced, their next trip could be to anywhere
in North America.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Express Reefers [was Complaint]

Jeff English
 

sswain@... wrote:

CN 10000-10099 express reefer kit in
HO scale. I'm told these wood-sheathed cars were commonly seen in New
England headed to New York loaded with fresh fish from fisheries such as
that based in Prince Rupert BC and the inland fisheries of Manitoba,
Ontario, etc.
Probably from maritime fisheries, too, or would that be
assumed to be unable to compete with direct coastal shipping? In
any case, CN express reefers were common on the Rutland's
passenger trains originating in Montreal (and presumably empties
returning). Since these trains went to both NYC and Boston, I'm
not sure which of these was the destination of the Canadian fish.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Glue

thompson@...
 

Tim O'Connor writes:
"The discussion about GLUE has been covered in virtually every mailing list
since the beginning of time
and I hope that now that's it come up and been discussed, that that is the
last we'll see of it here...
Gee, Tim, sorry I spoke. I was responding to a question about GLUE, if
you perhaps recall. But I will in future try hard never to answer any
question which may have been answered previously.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Hopper Photos

Richard Hendrickson
 

Bet you never thought I'd be asking for prototype data on hopper cars. But
it's not for me personally. However, I would very much like to track down
photos of Wabash and GM&O (ex-Alton) war emergency twin hopper cars showing
how they were lettered after they were rebuilt with steel sheathing in the
late 1950s. Anybody have any ideas about where such photos might be found?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Express Reefers [was Complaint]

sswain@...
 

Hi:

I don't know that the Maritime fishery was involved but seeing as we are
talking fresh fish, speed was critical to keep the time from the water to
the consumer's plate at a minimum. Therefore my guess would be yes as I
expect that fishing boats weren't also travelling to New York and other
ships wouldn't have been particularly fast.

sswain@... wrote:

CN 10000-10099 express reefer kit in
HO scale. I'm told these wood-sheathed cars were commonly seen in New
England headed to New York loaded with fresh fish from fisheries such as
that based in Prince Rupert BC and the inland fisheries of Manitoba,
Ontario, etc.
Probably from maritime fisheries, too, or would that be
assumed to be unable to compete with direct coastal shipping? In
any case, CN express reefers were common on the Rutland's
passenger trains originating in Montreal (and presumably empties
returning). Since these trains went to both NYC and Boston, I'm
not sure which of these was the destination of the Canadian fish.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------


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26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@...


Re: D coupler pivot pins :)

Earl Tuson
 

From: byronrose@...

What size were the pivot pins on 1920s era coupler knuckles?
Come on, Byron, you ought to know that D couplers used a 13 3/8" long, 1 5/8"
diameter pin, drilled for a 3/8" X 2 1/2" cotter. Geez, I thought everybody
knew THAT one.

Now, can anyone help me with the correct contour of a USRA striker casting?
The 1919 CBC plans I'm looking at show, looking from the top, a flat striking
surface in some plans and a convex surface in others.

Earl Tuson

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