Date   

Re: "TW" reefer designation

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Dick - A wine car should be RB, the "B" being for beverage or beer, but
that's not a car with an internal tank. "TW" would be from the Tank
designation, with "W" meaning a wood tank, like a vinegar or pickle car.
(Meaning these didn't get the stainless steel or enameled tanks such as used
in GPEX milk cars and Chateau Martin cars.) Thanks - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Harley" <Dick.Harley@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] "TW" reefer designation


On 12-20-00, John Nehrich asked:

I've just been studying the Red Caboose's web site for their
PFE reefers. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't see
any explanation of the "TW" designation. Is this something
they made up for non-PFE cars?
Since everyone else seems asleep, I'll venture a first cut answer from
here at work without my PFE book (I took it home during our move). PFE
sold some it's R-30-9's to wineries for wine transport. I believe they
took the ice bunkers out and made the cars essentially wine tank cars,
hence the 'TW' designation. I don't have an ORER here to check that ARA
designation, but that's the gist of it.

Dick Harley




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Atlas pulpwood cars/offset hoppers with oval ends

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I'm puzzling through the Atlas kits for our Atlas section
(http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Kits/Atlas-kits.html#sets)

For most of their cars, the Atlas web site has a photo, so I can get the car number and the scheme they are using, but not so for their pulpwood cars. And the photos for their oval end offset twin cars doesn't seem to load (at least for me). If anyone has any of these kits handy and could read off the car number and reweigh date, I'd be grateful.
- John Nehrich


Re: "TW" reefer designation

Dick Harley <Dick.Harley@...>
 

John,

Wooden tanks sounds good to me. Wine loves that stuff.

There is a page in the PFE book that gives the history of those cars, and
I believe that is where Bill McClung got the idea and data for doing them.

Dick Harley


Re: "TW" reefer designation

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 12/21/00 12:58:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, nehrij@...
writes:

<< Dick - A wine car should be RB, the "B" being for beverage or beer, but
that's not a car with an internal tank. "TW" would be from the Tank
designation, with "W" meaning a wood tank, like a vinegar or pickle car.
(Meaning these didn't get the stainless steel or enameled tanks such as used
in GPEX milk cars and Chateau Martin cars.) >>

"TW" was the correct letter designation for the PFE refrigerator cars when
sold and converted to wine service (circa 1933-35). During 1935 the AAR
clarified, and/or added to, its list of M.C.B. designations for tank
cars--the "TW" designation read; A car equipped with one or more lined or
unlined wooden tanks or tubs. Note, "tank" car is not specified.

Modifications were made to this designation both in 1936 and in 1940. The
1940 description read; A car equipped with one or more wooden tanks, or, one
or more metal tubs. Such tanks or tubs may be lined. Car is sometimes
equipped with a roof.

By the 1950s the "TW" designation was greatly simplified to read; Tank car
equipped with one or more wooden containers.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
SParks, Nevada


P2K Tank Cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Group,
Just got bit by the P2K dating bug with a batch of 10K tanks I just
bought. This means the impossibility of telling what tanks you have without
unpacking the cars. Anyway the group of COSX I got are dated 5-46 and have
a big D-X on them. It's easy to change the 5-46 but if it's wrong (for '41)
to get rid of a large white D-X on one side. So my question is, can I live
with that big white D-X in '41 or must I remove it? For that matter is the
rest of the lettering OK or must the cars go?

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: P2K Tank Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Group,
Just got bit by the P2K dating bug with a batch of 10K tanks I just
bought. This means the impossibility of telling what tanks you have without
unpacking the cars. Anyway the group of COSX I got are dated 5-46 and have
a big D-X on them. It's easy to change the 5-46 but if it's wrong (for '41)
to get rid of a large white D-X on one side. So my question is, can I live
with that big white D-X in '41 or must I remove it? For that matter is the
rest of the lettering OK or must the cars go?
Not to worry, Jon, I did the research on the lettering for those cars and
the billboard DX was current in 1941, so all you have to do is change the
reweigh dates. However, the date of 5-46 was chosen because we had a
prototype photo that showed a car with AB brakes, and it's likely that in
1941 most of the DX cars still had KC brakes (this assumption is supported
by photos in the Library of Congress archives which show COSX cars in Tulsa
during the war; where the brake equipment is visible, it's KC type).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: P2K Tank Cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Thanks Richard,
Easy to change the date and add KC brakes. I think either Tichy and/or
CalScale still have the KC brakes.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: P2K Tank Cars & K brakes

Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

Be aware that Cal-Scale (Bowser) has PERMANENTLY discontinued their part
#199-290 and #190-291, which were KC brake sets in plastic and brass
respectively!! The mold is worn out/damaged, and since they were doing
the brass sets via "lost plastic" casting, those got canceled also.

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the order
rate just doesn't justify it. In fact he specifically said that while
they redid the AB brake mold, the order rate is such that he figures it
could be 35 - 50 years just 'till he recovers the money spent, to say
nothing of lost interest and available capital for other product.

Sorry to be the messenger of bad/disappointing news.

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------


Re: K brakes

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 10:59 AM 12/23/00 -0500, you wrote:

Be aware that Cal-Scale (Bowser) has PERMANENTLY discontinued their part
#199-290 and #190-291, which were KC brake sets in plastic and brass
respectively!!

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the order
rate just doesn't justify it. In fact he specifically said that while
they redid the AB brake mold, the order rate is such that he figures it
could be 35 - 50 years just 'till he recovers the money spent, to say
nothing of lost interest and available capital for other product.

Sorry to be the messenger of bad/disappointing news.
Tichy makes excellent KC and KD brake sets, and I have tons of leftover
KC gear from kits. (99% of my stuff uses AB or later brakes.) I suspect
one reason the CalScale AB set is selling slowly is that he took too
long (several years!) in redoing the tooling and gave competitors (Tichy,
Details West, Detail Associates, Grandt Line, and even Pittsburgh Scale
Models) a chance to jump in with replacement products. I will never buy
another CalScale AB set because the competitive products are better --
The old CalScale Ajax brake wheel can't hold a candle to Kadee's.


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: K brakes

Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

Tim:

Do you have any Cal Scale K brake sets , plastic or brass, which you
would be interested in selling? I'll pay more than fair value!

Thanks,

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------


Re: Red Caboose "TW" reefer designation

thompson@...
 

John Nehrich asked:
I've just been studying the Red Caboose's web site for their PFE reefers.
Maybe I've missed something, but I don't see any explanation of the "TW"
designation. Is this something they made up for non-PFE cars?
John, you can look up the AAR type designations in the back of any ORER.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: P2K Tank Cars & K brakes

byronrose@...
 

On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 10:59:52 -0500 Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
writes:
Be aware that Cal-Scale (Bowser) has PERMANENTLY discontinued their
part
#199-290 and #190-291, which were KC brake sets in plastic and brass
respectively!! The mold is worn out/damaged, and since they were
doing
the brass sets via "lost plastic" casting, those got canceled also.

Lee English tells me it will cost ~$28, to make a new mold and the
order
rate just doesn't justify it. In fact he specifically said that
while
they redid the AB brake mold, the order rate is such that he figures
it
could be 35 - 50 years just 'till he recovers the money spent, to
say
nothing of lost interest and available capital for other product.

Sorry to be the messenger of bad/disappointing news.

Max
Max,

What Lee neglected to tell you was that they did such a poor job of
tooling it that anyone who's knowledgeable will shun them. Besides,
while they were off the market several others became available which have
permanently replaced the mess that the CalScale set had turned into. Try
comparing the castings as they were originally made 40+ years ago (or
Grandt Lines current set) to the current CalScale. The original patterns
had been distorted by their "repair" over the years to the point that the
AB valve was about half the height it should have been (you couldn't
attach more than 3 pipes where 6 need to be placed) and one side of the
reservoir was larger than the other half. The cylinder and retainer
valve were also shortened but nobody would know because nobody knows what
the correct sizes should be. Unfortunately, that is what Lee English
copied to make the new tooling. They got what they
bargained for.

The irony is that some of the new sets are no more than copies (rip-offs
is the technical term) of the inferior CalScale sets.

The best set on the market, IMHO, is from Grandt Line. The components in
it are closest to scale size. Try mounting a reservoir ATSF style with
the Tichy set. In my humbler opinion, my sets ain't too bad either!!

BSR (doing what he does best!)
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Kadee #58s: You asked for it

MDelvec952@...
 

Picked up a couple of sets of the new scale Kadees, No.58s, yesterday.
Overall, not bad looking, and more realistic than the old reliable
predecessor.

I put them on a couple of cars and a caboose, and I have a few observations.

First, the size looks pretty good, and I don't mind the look of the knuckle
from the side, as others have complained about. They're steel and will be
reliable. And the 58s couple well with the No.5s.

I once warned that with scale couplers (primarily the Seargants) the good
life in modeling would be over for making a hitch almost every time. In real
life every hitch must be watched as couplers cross or knuckles butt all the
time, and some cars won't couple to other cars on the slightest of curves or
on the curve of a switch, and so on. Even though the 58s center in the No.5
pocket, I found that as often as not, the hitches didn't make -- either the
couplers weren't exactly lined up or they crossed, and they wouldn't make
without adjustment on a No.4 switch, whereas the No.5 couples almost always
would. But this will all add to the realism of the operation and I'll
happily live with it for the better looking coupler. I'm one of those who
cuts off the actuating pins; prefer to make cuts by hand.

The chief beef, though, is that the already oversize coupler pocket is now
even bigger in relation. Byron mentioned this over the phone, but I didn't
realize how bad the pocket looks. It literally dwarfs the coupler and seems
to allow a greater travel. Wonder why a new coupler pocket wasn't designed.
These are, after all, scale couplers for the scale modeler. I would consider
building proper pocket faces on future kits, but who knows how reliable
they'll be after a couple of jacknifes and derailments.

Anyway, was wondering if anyone with a large railroad tried these yet, and
have they shoved a long train around a curve? I noticed on my little
shelf-top yard that the swing is so great that when shoving on a curve the
couplers kick out dangerously far. I'm sure the pockets and couplers will
hold up, but I was curious if it effects the tracking

....Mike


Re: P2K Tank Cars & K brakes

Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

Byron:

Unfortunately I am aware of this degradation of quality problem, since I
still have some Cal-Scale K brake sets purchased directly from John
Anderson in the early '60s (mostly on cars I must admit).

I've been using those sparingly and some of the Grandt ones also. How
do I order yours? (Part # & $ to send?)

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------


Cal Scale AB brakes

Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

I have nine sets of Cal Scale #AB-284 brass AB brake sets. One pack was
originally priced $1.50, seven were $2 and the other was $3.75. I don't know
where they all fall on the degradation curve, but if anyone needs them, get
in touch with me off-list. I won't be able to do anything until we return
from New Zealand on January 24, but I'll check my e-mail a couple of times
before we leave on Monday.

Best wishes to all for a happy holiday season!

Tom Madden


SP Overnight scheme

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Both Intermountain and Red Caboose offer their 1937 AAR box car in the SP's Overnight scheme. As I understand it, this scheme was ONLY applied to cars built with Improved Dreadnaught Ends (but were 10 ft high inside), but I want to make sure before I criticize this version. (If I remember Tony's article in RMC, these were the SP's first box cars with this end.)

- John Nehrich


Re: Kadee #58s: You asked for it

byronrose@...
 

On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 01:47:04 EST MDelvec952@... writes:

Picked up a couple of sets of the new scale Kadees, No.58s,
yesterday.
<snip>

The chief beef, though, is that the already oversize coupler pocket
is now
even bigger in relation. Byron mentioned this over the phone, but I
didn't
realize how bad the pocket looks. It literally dwarfs the coupler
and seems
to allow a greater travel. Wonder why a new coupler pocket wasn't
designed.
These are, after all, scale couplers for the scale modeler.
Mike, the answer is that they can't because they have to sell to modelers
who would never build layouts with scale curves. What does a real world
curve scale out to, 72+" radius? A scale coupler in a scale pocket could
not take even a 30" radius without kicking cars onto the floor.


I noticed on my little
shelf-top yard that the swing is so great that when shoving on a
curve the
couplers kick out dangerously far. I'm sure the pockets and couplers
will
hold up, but I was curious if it effects the tracking
There, you said so yourself. Real world, meet real scale model world.
Try the solution that street railroads used, an auxiliary double ended
coupler to extend the cars from each other and allow more bending.
Imagine 60' boxcars with scale draft gear housings on 24" curves.
Splinter city.

BSR
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Re: scale draft gear

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

I think Byron exagerates the difficulty of using a closer
to scale draft gear. For one thing, on a model coupler the
amount of swing as measured by the deflection at the coupler
face depends on the distance from the pivot to the face of
the pocket opening, as well as the length of the shank, as
well as the size of the opening. Kadee PS-1 cars come with
a closer to scale draft gear that does NOT use #5 size shank
couplers and they seem to work perfectly well. True, you may
have trouble coupling over #4 turnouts, but why would you
couple or uncouple there anyway? (It sounds like something
the prototype would not do.) So while Byron is correct that
there are physical limits to how close to "true scale" you
can go, the fact is that the "next generation" #58 (i.e. the
one with a redesigned shank to fit a narrower draft gear)
should work quite well on model railroads with reasonable
minimum curvature and turnout sizes. They probably won't
work very well on 18" radii with #4 switches, but those are
not the customers for the #58 anyway.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: SP Overnight scheme

Richard Hendrickson
 

Both Intermountain and Red Caboose offer their 1937 AAR box car in the
SP's Overnight scheme. As I understand it, this scheme was ONLY applied
to cars built with Improved Dreadnaught Ends (but were 10 ft high inside),
but I want to make sure before I criticize this version. (If I remember
Tony's article in RMC, these were the SP's first box cars with this end.)

- John Nehrich
That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series, built in mid-1946,
which were 10'0"IH AAR-design cars with improved Dreadnaught ends,
alternate-center rivet courses on the side sheathing, early postwar
Youngstown corrugated doors with wide seam panels, and steel grid running
boards. So not only the ends but the sides, doors, and running boards of
the IM and RC models are wrong. It's highly unlikely that an accurate
model of these cars will ever be offered in styrene (though resin is
certainly a possibility) which is, of course, bad news for the SP guys who
would like to model a whole string of them. Since the overnight freight
service trains ran at night, however, I suppose you could made up a train
of IM or RC cars and turn out all the lights in the layout room so the
inaccuracies would be invisible. For that matter, with the lights out you
could run any old train made up of antique Athearn/Tyco/MDC junk that would
make appropriate noises and just tell visitors that what they were hearing
was the LA-SF Overnight. I understand that's what T. Thomspon intends to
do if he ever gets what's left of his Coast Line layout reincarnated in his
attic in Berkeley. FWIW, the overnight cars weren't supposed to go
off-line, so they'd be out of place on any layout that didn't model the SP
Coast Line (though there is a well known M. D. McCarter photo of a nearly
new one at Peru, IN, so obviously there were occasional exceptions).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: SP Overnight scheme

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Richard - I thought so. But with traditional Athearn, Tyco, etc., the sound
I would like to hear with all the lights out is them hitting the concrete
floor - the most
desperate form of kitbashing. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP Overnight scheme


Both Intermountain and Red Caboose offer their 1937 AAR box car in the
SP's Overnight scheme. As I understand it, this scheme was ONLY applied
to cars built with Improved Dreadnaught Ends (but were 10 ft high
inside),
but I want to make sure before I criticize this version. (If I remember
Tony's article in RMC, these were the SP's first box cars with this end.)

- John Nehrich
That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series, built in
mid-1946,
which were 10'0"IH AAR-design cars with improved Dreadnaught ends,
alternate-center rivet courses on the side sheathing, early postwar
Youngstown corrugated doors with wide seam panels, and steel grid running
boards. So not only the ends but the sides, doors, and running boards of
the IM and RC models are wrong. It's highly unlikely that an accurate
model of these cars will ever be offered in styrene (though resin is
certainly a possibility) which is, of course, bad news for the SP guys who
would like to model a whole string of them. Since the overnight freight
service trains ran at night, however, I suppose you could made up a train
of IM or RC cars and turn out all the lights in the layout room so the
inaccuracies would be invisible. For that matter, with the lights out you
could run any old train made up of antique Athearn/Tyco/MDC junk that
would
make appropriate noises and just tell visitors that what they were hearing
was the LA-SF Overnight. I understand that's what T. Thomspon intends to
do if he ever gets what's left of his Coast Line layout reincarnated in
his
attic in Berkeley. FWIW, the overnight cars weren't supposed to go
off-line, so they'd be out of place on any layout that didn't model the SP
Coast Line (though there is a well known M. D. McCarter photo of a nearly
new one at Peru, IN, so obviously there were occasional exceptions).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520




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