Date   

Intermountain kits

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Intermountain does really well with sticking with the right paint schemes on the right cars. But does anyone know of any ART cars leased to Royal (with the big placard on the side) that were NOT belt-rail cars?
Also, I have in my notes that all the Central's USRA composite gons had been rebuilt to steel by '37. But supposedly they switched from black to box car red for their open top cars in '41, so I'm thinking the Intermountain NYC gon in box car red is wrong (?) - John


Re: Intermountain kits

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

John Nehrich wrote

Intermountain does really well with sticking with the right paint schemes on
the right cars.
[ *begin sarcasm* ]

Come again? Has Intermountain discontinued its entire product line
and introduced another??

[ *end sarcasm* ]

None of the steel reefers are truly accurate other than the PFE and
NP cars. Only one of the 60 foot flat cars is accurate. Many of the
tank cars are bogus. Many of the PS-1 paint schemes are applied to
the wrong car, although the paint schemes do correspond to Pullman
Standard cars. The majority of the "Canadian cylindrical" covered
hoppers are wrong, and some are simply a crock. I think the only
car style they've done 100% accurately is the 1940 AAR 10'6" box.
(And maybe the USRA gondola? It's too early for me.)



Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: Intermountain kits

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Tim - I've been working on our Red Caboose and MDC
sections, so BY COMPARISON Intermountain is a breath of fresh air. But I am
entirely in the dark on the 60 foot flats (Richard's answer to the Overnight
scheme), so any help you could give would be welcome. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timoconnor@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intermountain kits


John Nehrich wrote

Intermountain does really well with sticking with the right paint
schemes on
the right cars.
[ *begin sarcasm* ]

Come again? Has Intermountain discontinued its entire product line
and introduced another??

[ *end sarcasm* ]

None of the steel reefers are truly accurate other than the PFE and
NP cars. Only one of the 60 foot flat cars is accurate. Many of the
tank cars are bogus. Many of the PS-1 paint schemes are applied to
the wrong car, although the paint schemes do correspond to Pullman
Standard cars. The majority of the "Canadian cylindrical" covered
hoppers are wrong, and some are simply a crock. I think the only
car style they've done 100% accurately is the 1940 AAR 10'6" box.
(And maybe the USRA gondola? It's too early for me.)



Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Marlborough, Massachusetts



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Re: Intermountain kits

Richard Hendrickson
 

Intermountain does really well with sticking with the right paint schemes
on the right cars. But does anyone know of any ART cars leased to Royal
(with the big placard on the side) that were NOT belt-rail cars?
I've seen only two photos of ART crs in this scheme, and both were
belt-rail cars (i.e.,postwar cars with improved Dreadnauight ends and
horizontal rivet seams in the middle of the side sheathing).

Also, I have in my notes that all the Central's USRA composite gons
had been rebuilt to steel by '37. But supposedly they switched from black
to box car red for their open top cars in '41, so I'm thinking the
Intermountain NYC gon in box car red is wrong (?) - John
Correct on all counts, John. To the best of my knowledge, the Central's
USRA gons were never painted mineral red.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: P2K Tank Cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Richard,
One more question on the COSX D-X billboard cars. In my time frame with
the KC brakes would they still have archbar trucks?
Also are those LOC photos accessible by internet?

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: P2K Tank Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Jon Miller wrote:

Richard,
One more question on the COSX D-X billboard cars. In my time frame with
the KC brakes would they still have archbar trucks?
No, as the (twice delayed) deadline prohibiting arch bars in interchange
took effect in mid-1941. Anyway, the prototype cars were delivered with
ARA cast steel trucks with spring planks and would certainly have retained
those trucks through 1941 (in fact, probably until the cars wre retired).
The closest HO scale truck is the Accurail "Bettendorf" truck.

Also are those LOC photos accessible by internet?
Yes, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Perhaps someone else on the list
can tell you.


Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: scale draft gear

byronrose@...
 

The bottom line to this discussion will be written on modelers layouts.
Since I have not yet had one of the new Kadees (or Accumates) to play
with, I can only make an educated guess as to how they'll work based on
my familiarity with Kadees "old" #5s and how prototype draft gear works.
But I wouldn't bet the farm on modelers using the new couplers on much
more than display models.

I feel that Seargant did their couplers a disservice by incorporating a
Kadee #5 type shank which requires a wider housing just to get it on a
car. But what else could they do with modelers using the #5s on at least
98% of their models? Somebody needs to develop plug in draft gear
housings for the two types, scale and Kadee, which will allow interchange
on a car by car basis. But unfortunately, those cars built with the
coupler housing as an integral part of the end/end sill will be very,
very difficult to convert, unless the manufacturers take pity on us and
cut two different ends for their kits.

I shudder to think of the work ahead of us to correct those thousands of
unbuilt Westerfield and Sunshine kits, not to mention the hundreds of
thousands of unbuilt plastic kits. And how about throwing in all the
built-up cars we have rolling on test tracks and display cases. Or
layouts??

There is some true scale coupler testing being done by some adventuresome
types, like Randy Anderson, but I'm kinda betting that this is one area
where the more things change, the more they will stay the same. Whatever
that means.

I hope that this development doesn't splinter us into non compatible
groups like 1/4" vs 17/64" vs Proto 48 did in O scale. How ironic it
will be when our steam engines will be able to operate on smaller radius
curves than our freight cars.

BSR


On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:41:37 -0500 "Tim O'Connor"
<timoconnor@...> writes:

I think Byron exagerates the difficulty of using a closer
to scale draft gear. For one thing, on a model coupler the
amount of swing as measured by the deflection at the coupler
face depends on the distance from the pivot to the face of
the pocket opening, as well as the length of the shank, as
well as the size of the opening. Kadee PS-1 cars come with
a closer to scale draft gear that does NOT use #5 size shank
couplers and they seem to work perfectly well. True, you may
have trouble coupling over #4 turnouts, but why would you
couple or uncouple there anyway? (It sounds like something
the prototype would not do.) So while Byron is correct that
there are physical limits to how close to "true scale" you
can go, the fact is that the "next generation" #58 (i.e. the
one with a redesigned shank to fit a narrower draft gear)
should work quite well on model railroads with reasonable
minimum curvature and turnout sizes. They probably won't
work very well on 18" radii with #4 switches, but those are
not the customers for the #58 anyway.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


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Re: paint lid gaskets

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Just found a new material to use for your used Floquil and Scalecoat
paint lids. Seems the plastic material used in SoBe drink lids is very
solvent resistant. It can be pried out of the lid and used as is for
Scalecoat. It can be cut down for Floquil bottles. I have had one in a old
Floquil bottle which contains MEK. The material has swollen (in about 3
days) but still seals fine and does not appear to be dissolving. The test
piece in the Scalecoat lid has been there 5 days with no apparent change.
These seals really great as they are a soft plastic (or something).

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)

Jeff English
 

Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

But supposedly they switched from
black to box car red for their open top cars in '41,
Correct on all counts, John.
Well, almost correct. Once again, in the interest of accuracy,
according to an article in the July 1974 issue of the NYC Headlight,
the date of change in the painting of open-top freight cars from
black to f.c. red was "up to the end of 1942 or early 1943".
It is likely that there was no exact date, and that each shop
used up their remaining supplies of black paint on different dates in
a period of time that could have extended months following
issuance of an official edict (whose date is still unknown to modern
modeler/historians), if there was such a formal issuance, as
opposed to verbal orders. Also it is likely that individual shop
managers had their own personal opinions about how quickly they
were going to adopt a new policy they may or may not have
supported personally.
The above change of date for painting whole cars is not
completely consistent with the elimination of black from the
background of oval heralds on f.c. red cars (indicating that it is
possible that there were some f.c. red open-top cars with black
backgrounds in '42-'43-'44). The elimination of black from heralds
is reflected in a drawing dated 3-2-44 for the size then currently
used on box cars, according to the same Headlight article. For
other size heralds (including the one usually used on hoppers and
gons), the article says black was eliminated "at about that time".
Apparently no drawings with specific instructions have turned up.
I have no doubt that the box cars built up to 1942 had the black
background, and that the ones built starting in 1945 did not. There
were no box cars built new for NYC in 1943, but I'm still looking for
unambiguous evidence of whether Lots 734-B and 735-B had black
backgrounds when built (both by Despatch Shops). I have not yet
turned up a builder's photo of Lot 735-B, which I expect lacked the
black, but I have a fuzzy rendition (2nd or 3rd generation copy
neg?) of a builder's photo of Lot 734-B which, in my opinion, is
inconclusive as to whether there is a black background. I've done
some extreme contrast/brightness manipulation with a scan of this
photo and I can sort of maybe say it looks like there is a black
background, but I don't have any confidence in this.

Lot 734-B = NYC 159000 - 159999
Lot 735-B = NYC 161000 - 161999

NYC AAR-design 40-ft cars, and some PS-1s, occupy a
chronologically consistent run of numbers except for leaving the
160000s vacant. I believe this was because there was still a
handful of USRA ss cars hanging on in that block, but they were all
gone by the July '47 ORER.
Other cars built after 1941 but before the first documented cars
without black backgrounds included:
Lot 729-B = IHB 10000 - 10599, blt 3-44 DSI
Lot 730-B = IHB 10600 - 10999, blt 4-44 DSI
Photos of cars with as-built paint jobs are pretty clear that the IHB
herald has a black background. Since Lot 734-B followed pretty
soon after 730-B, that's just one more little piece of circumstantial
evidence supporting black for Lot 734-B.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)

Richard Hendrickson
 

Thanks, Jeff, for this useful summary. I think I knew most of what you
posted, but I didn't have it all in one place, Now I do.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)

Stafford F. Swain <sswain@...>
 

This early 1940s timing of shifting painting open top cars from black to a freight car red coincides pretty tightly with the CNR's dates of doing exactly the same thing to the same groups of cars. Could this be a wartime supply issue??

Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

But supposedly they switched from
>black to box car red for their open top cars in '41,

Correct on all counts, John.
Well, almost correct. Once again, in the interest of accuracy,
according to an article in the July 1974 issue of the NYC Headlight,
the date of change in the painting of open-top freight cars from
black to f.c. red was "up to the end of 1942 or early 1943".
It is likely that there was no exact date, and that each shop
used up their remaining supplies of black paint on different dates in
a period of time that could have extended months following
issuance of an official edict (whose date is still unknown to modern
modeler/historians), if there was such a formal issuance, as
opposed to verbal orders. Also it is likely that individual shop
managers had their own personal opinions about how quickly they
were going to adopt a new policy they may or may not have
supported personally.
The above change of date for painting whole cars is not
completely consistent with the elimination of black from the
background of oval heralds on f.c. red cars (indicating that it is
possible that there were some f.c. red open-top cars with black
backgrounds in '42-'43-'44). The elimination of black from heralds
is reflected in a drawing dated 3-2-44 for the size then currently
used on box cars, according to the same Headlight article. For
other size heralds (including the one usually used on hoppers and
gons), the article says black was eliminated "at about that time". Apparently no drawings with specific instructions have turned up.
I have no doubt that the box cars built up to 1942 had the black
background, and that the ones built starting in 1945 did not. There
were no box cars built new for NYC in 1943, but I'm still looking for
unambiguous evidence of whether Lots 734-B and 735-B had black
backgrounds when built (both by Despatch Shops). I have not yet
turned up a builder's photo of Lot 735-B, which I expect lacked the
black, but I have a fuzzy rendition (2nd or 3rd generation copy
neg?) of a builder's photo of Lot 734-B which, in my opinion, is
inconclusive as to whether there is a black background. I've done
some extreme contrast/brightness manipulation with a scan of this
photo and I can sort of maybe say it looks like there is a black
background, but I don't have any confidence in this.

Lot 734-B = NYC 159000 - 159999
Lot 735-B = NYC 161000 - 161999

NYC AAR-design 40-ft cars, and some PS-1s, occupy a
chronologically consistent run of numbers except for leaving the
160000s vacant. I believe this was because there was still a
handful of USRA ss cars hanging on in that block, but they were all
gone by the July '47 ORER.
Other cars built after 1941 but before the first documented cars
without black backgrounds included:
Lot 729-B = IHB 10000 - 10599, blt 3-44 DSI
Lot 730-B = IHB 10600 - 10999, blt 4-44 DSI
Photos of cars with as-built paint jobs are pretty clear that the IHB
herald has a black background. Since Lot 734-B followed pretty
soon after 730-B, that's just one more little piece of circumstantial
evidence supporting black for Lot 734-B.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...
--
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@...


Re: "TW" reefer designation

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dick and John,

At the time these cars were converted (the late 1930s), wood was the
only commonly used material for cooperage in the California wine
industry. Although glass-lined tanks were in common use for milk, they
were still on the far horizon for wine producers. Stainless steel was
pretty new and wouldn't make much of an appearance in the wine industry
until the 1960s.

Wood "breathes" (just like the cork in a good bottle of wine), and this
allows the wines to improve by gentle oxidation. Oak, was and still is,
the most commonly used wood for wine. It adds tannic acid, necessary for
giving red wines and Chardonnays their complex flavors. Redwood is
chemically neutral and is preferred for aging fruity reds and most white
wines. Redwood lends itself more to upright storage vats than horizontal
aging barrels. Stainless steel and glass are not only chemically
neutral, but don't breathe either, so they add nothing to the wine.

We have no details on the wood used for the cooperage in these cars, but
my best guess is that they were probably oak.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Dick Harvey wrote:


John,

Wooden tanks sounds good to me. Wine loves that stuff.

There is a page in the PFE book that gives the history of those cars, and
I believe that is where Bill McClung got the idea and data for doing them.

Dick Harley


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Re: SP Overnight scheme

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Richard,

From the wording in your reply, I presume you are unaware that Martin
Loftin has the correct model of the SP Overnight boxcar in his Sunshine
line. It's a nice model, with the correct ACR panels and the improved
ends. Maybe someday I'll actually get around to building mine. :^)

I might add that after the overnight service ended, these cars were
released to the general fright pool, though this was in the 1960s.
Probably most had long been relettered in the aluminum/grey scheme. I
have a blurred photo of one taken at Roseville in my old high-school
days. Unfortunately, it was on its way to the scrap yard in Lincoln.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
applied to B-50-24 class cars in the 97620-98069 series, built in mid-1946,
which were 10'0"IH AAR-design cars with improved Dreadnaught ends,
alternate-center rivet courses on the side sheathing, early postwar
Youngstown corrugated doors with wide seam panels, and steel grid running
boards. So not only the ends but the sides, doors, and running boards of
the IM and RC models are wrong. It's highly unlikely that an accurate
model of these cars will ever be offered in styrene (though resin is
certainly a possibility) which is, of course, bad news for the SP guys who
would like to model a whole string of them....


Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

One of the things that I wasn't aware of concerned the development of paint.
There was an article in Invention & Technology (I think that's the right
name) about the problems of painting autos. It seems the lacquers in the
early days took a long time to dry and didn't cover well on metal. It took
something like 17 days to paint an auto, which was set under enormous heat
lamps with men in lint free coveralls and gloves working under the
sweltering conditions whose only job it was to pluck dust, hair, off the
slowly drying paint. Henry Ford's famous slogan "Any color you want as long
as it was black" was not that he didn't want to store a whole lot of colors,
but that black absorbed the heat the best and dried a little faster.
After WWI, Du Pont found itself with a lot of nitroglycerin on their
hands (or maybe it was other chemicals related to explosives), and in the
1920's, developed the Duco paints of synthetic paints. This took the time
down to a few hours (on autos). And Ford stuck to his plain jane Model-T
and lost his edge to GM who went to colorful autos that were stylized.
In the 1922 Cyc. for instance there is mention about using a paint with
carbon in it as the best on metal. (I'm not sure if this was true, but if
they believed it, that is what is most important.) Thus a box car red was
an iron oxide
paint using the cheapest pigments, and favored on wood, while black was
favored on freight cars made up mostly of metal. (And even box cars and
reefers got their hardware painted black on a lot of early schemes, not just
for the builder's schemes.)
I'm not sure when railroads got the message. There may also be a
question of when they switched from hand-painting to spray-painting. This
doesn't sound the most reasonable, but maybe not having to clean the
airbrush from red to black and back again was a factor. (I don't know about
them, but it would sway me.)
The question of paint raises another point. Early steel cars would be a
pain to paint (I'm sure they didn't do it like autos, but still) and I don't
think the paint stuck that well, either. When the Duco paints came on the
scene, the balance may have tipped a little more from wood to steel.
By the way, the Rutland stuck with their NYC scheme of red wood cars
(mainly box cars and reefers, but also
ballast cars, and black open top cars. The D&H, always trying to be
different, went the other way it seems. Their hoppers and gons had been red
through the '30's, and about 1940 switched to black, although that is when
they first started getting steel hoppers and gons in quantity. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stafford F. Swain" <sswain@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was
Intermountain kits)


This early 1940s timing of shifting painting open top cars from black
to a freight car red coincides pretty tightly with the CNR's dates of
doing exactly the same thing to the same groups of cars. Could this
be a wartime supply issue??

Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

But supposedly they switched from
>black to box car red for their open top cars in '41,

Correct on all counts, John.
Well, almost correct. Once again, in the interest of accuracy,
according to an article in the July 1974 issue of the NYC Headlight,
the date of change in the painting of open-top freight cars from
black to f.c. red was "up to the end of 1942 or early 1943".
It is likely that there was no exact date, and that each shop
used up their remaining supplies of black paint on different dates in
a period of time that could have extended months following
issuance of an official edict (whose date is still unknown to modern
modeler/historians), if there was such a formal issuance, as
opposed to verbal orders. Also it is likely that individual shop
managers had their own personal opinions about how quickly they
were going to adopt a new policy they may or may not have
supported personally.
The above change of date for painting whole cars is not
completely consistent with the elimination of black from the
background of oval heralds on f.c. red cars (indicating that it is
possible that there were some f.c. red open-top cars with black
backgrounds in '42-'43-'44). The elimination of black from heralds
is reflected in a drawing dated 3-2-44 for the size then currently
used on box cars, according to the same Headlight article. For
other size heralds (including the one usually used on hoppers and
gons), the article says black was eliminated "at about that time".
Apparently no drawings with specific instructions have turned up.
I have no doubt that the box cars built up to 1942 had the black
background, and that the ones built starting in 1945 did not. There
were no box cars built new for NYC in 1943, but I'm still looking for
unambiguous evidence of whether Lots 734-B and 735-B had black
backgrounds when built (both by Despatch Shops). I have not yet
turned up a builder's photo of Lot 735-B, which I expect lacked the
black, but I have a fuzzy rendition (2nd or 3rd generation copy
neg?) of a builder's photo of Lot 734-B which, in my opinion, is
inconclusive as to whether there is a black background. I've done
some extreme contrast/brightness manipulation with a scan of this
photo and I can sort of maybe say it looks like there is a black
background, but I don't have any confidence in this.

Lot 734-B = NYC 159000 - 159999
Lot 735-B = NYC 161000 - 161999

NYC AAR-design 40-ft cars, and some PS-1s, occupy a
chronologically consistent run of numbers except for leaving the
160000s vacant. I believe this was because there was still a
handful of USRA ss cars hanging on in that block, but they were all
gone by the July '47 ORER.
Other cars built after 1941 but before the first documented cars
without black backgrounds included:
Lot 729-B = IHB 10000 - 10599, blt 3-44 DSI
Lot 730-B = IHB 10600 - 10999, blt 4-44 DSI
Photos of cars with as-built paint jobs are pretty clear that the IHB
herald has a black background. Since Lot 734-B followed pretty
soon after 730-B, that's just one more little piece of circumstantial
evidence supporting black for Lot 734-B.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...
--
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@...


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Re: "TW" reefer designation

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I understand that part of the fermetation process are the development of
aldehydes, which are bitter, but allowing the wine to "breathe" lets them
oxidize. Although around c. 1940 there are the multi-dome/multi-compartment
wine tank cars, which must have had a metal liner.
But if the TW cars were converted in '35-'36, that doesn't leave much
time for them to run under the billboard schemes that Red Caboose shows (not
that there was that much time between the end of Prohibition and the
billboard ban anyway).
Also, as bulk wine cars rather than shipping cartons of it in RB cars,
the cars would need to go to bottling plants, not just some wholesale
distributor or even in the more remote possibility of a team track (on a
layout just to justify these cars) ?
- John Nehrich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "TW" reefer designation


Dick and John,

At the time these cars were converted (the late 1930s), wood was the
only commonly used material for cooperage in the California wine
industry. Although glass-lined tanks were in common use for milk, they
were still on the far horizon for wine producers. Stainless steel was
pretty new and wouldn't make much of an appearance in the wine industry
until the 1960s.

Wood "breathes" (just like the cork in a good bottle of wine), and this
allows the wines to improve by gentle oxidation. Oak, was and still is,
the most commonly used wood for wine. It adds tannic acid, necessary for
giving red wines and Chardonnays their complex flavors. Redwood is
chemically neutral and is preferred for aging fruity reds and most white
wines. Redwood lends itself more to upright storage vats than horizontal
aging barrels. Stainless steel and glass are not only chemically
neutral, but don't breathe either, so they add nothing to the wine.

We have no details on the wood used for the cooperage in these cars, but
my best guess is that they were probably oak.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Dick Harvey wrote:

John,

Wooden tanks sounds good to me. Wine loves that stuff.

There is a page in the PFE book that gives the history of those cars,
and
I believe that is where Bill McClung got the idea and data for doing
them.

Dick Harley


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STMFC-unsubscribe@...

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STMFC-unsubscribe@...



TW cars

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

In 1940, there were an unknown number of cars in California Despatch Line's 277-317 series, TW cars said to be equipped with 6 wooden tanks (not the two I would have expected, if built like a GPEX milk car). Also, Bright Wines had a couple of cars with wood tanks and several with rubber lined tanks (not stainless steel or glass-lined).

- John Nehrich


Re: "TW" reefer designation

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

John,

Quite a few of the large wine makers in California served primarily
eastern markets up into the 1960s. Roma was the most famous. Wine from
quite a few of these producers was shipped in bulk to bottling plants in
the east. This pretty much ended when many of the larger California
wineries went national, and there was a boomlet (later a boom in the
1970s) in east coast wineries growing hybridized grapes. AFIK, there are
few, if any, California wineries shipping in bulk to the east coast now
(watch someone prove me wrong!). Most ship finished wine in bottles.
IIRC, Roma was one of the last of the bulk shippers. I vaguely remember
seeing a Roma car in Manteca or Fresno while traveling to my parents
house from college around 1970 or so. Of course, no camera, and in fact
I think it was at night.

I had quite forgotten the Roma wine tankers. I don't know the technical
details of the tanks, but they were probably lined with glass, stainless
steel, or something else. If they were bare steel, the acids in the
wines would have slowly eaten away at the metal, tainting the taste of
the wine with iron compounds.

As we have discussed here before, the notion that all billboard reefers
disappeared circa 1939 is in error. Car under lease to one company, and
carrying only their products, could still be so lettered. The lettering
ban applied mostly to free-floating or short-term lease cars which might
carry loads for shippers other than the one advertised on the side,
especially loads for competitors. I do not know about the cars in
question, but photo evidence shows that certain wine cars did retain
their colorful schemes up into the 1960s.

I'm sure that Richard will eventually straighten us both out on this
matter. He always seems to have the right answer, and the evidence to
back it up.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



John Nehrich wrote:


I understand that part of the fermetation process are the development of
aldehydes, which are bitter, but allowing the wine to "breathe" lets them
oxidize. Although around c. 1940 there are the multi-dome/multi-compartment
wine tank cars, which must have had a metal liner.
But if the TW cars were converted in '35-'36, that doesn't leave much
time for them to run under the billboard schemes that Red Caboose shows (not
that there was that much time between the end of Prohibition and the
billboard ban anyway).
Also, as bulk wine cars rather than shipping cartons of it in RB cars,
the cars would need to go to bottling plants, not just some wholesale
distributor or even in the more remote possibility of a team track (on a
layout just to justify these cars) ?
- John Nehrich


Re: "TW" reefer designation

Richard Hendrickson
 

John Nehrich wrote:

...around c. 1940 there are the multi-dome/multi-compartment
wine tank cars, which must have had a metal liner.
In fact, those cars were glass lined. There was a discussion on the FC
list a couple of months ago about how the glass linings wee applied.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: "TW" reefer designation

Richard Hendrickson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

....AFIK, there are
few, if any, California wineries shipping in bulk to the east coast now
(watch someone prove me wrong!). Most ship finished wine in bottles.
IIRC, Roma was one of the last of the bulk shippers. I vaguely remember
seeing a Roma car in Manteca or Fresno while traveling to my parents
house from college around 1970 or so.
That's essentially correct. There is photographic evidence of the Roma
cars lasting into the 1960s with billboard lettering. And I photographed
several wine tank cars in the Central Valley ca. 1970, though they were all
SHPX/ACFX and GATX cars without fancy lettering. (One freshly painted ACFX
six compartment car was painted purplish maroon, however, which was
definitely eye-catching.) Small quantities of Calif. wine are still
shipped in bulk to some east coast wineries, notably in upstate New York
where (despite all the promotional hype for Finger Lakes wines) the summer
is too short to bring up the sugar in the grapes so their wines are blended
with California wines to make them palatable.

As we have discussed here before, the notion that all billboard reefers
disappeared circa 1939 is in error. Car under lease to one company, and
carrying only their products, could still be so lettered. The lettering
ban applied mostly to free-floating or short-term lease cars which might
carry loads for shippers other than the one advertised on the side,
especially loads for competitors. I do not know about the cars in
question, but photo evidence shows that certain wine cars did retain
their colorful schemes up into the 1960s.
Even later than that, the Chateau Martin winery operated a small fleet
under their own reporting marks of ex-milk tank cars in express reefer
bodies that had wine colored sides and billboard lettering.

Perhaps its worth noting that quality wines were never shipped in bulk, at
least not over long distances. It was the cheap stuff that traveled in
tank cars.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: SP Overnight scheme

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard,

From the wording in your reply, I presume you are unaware that Martin
Loftin has the correct model of the SP Overnight boxcar in his Sunshine
line. It's a nice model, with the correct ACR panels and the improved
ends.
You're right Garth, I'd forgotten that Martin had produced a resin kit for
these cars. It's a model I can't use, and I have a hard time remembering
all the different cars in the Sunshine line.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520