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Intermountain kits
John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
Intermountain does really well with sticking with the right paint schemes on the right cars. But does anyone know of any ART cars leased to Royal (with the big placard on the side) that were NOT belt-rail cars?
Also, I have in my notes that all the Central's USRA composite gons had been rebuilt to steel by '37. But supposedly they switched from black to box car red for their open top cars in '41, so I'm thinking the Intermountain NYC gon in box car red is wrong (?) - John
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Re: Intermountain kits
Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
John Nehrich wrote
Intermountain does really well with sticking with the right paint schemes on[ *begin sarcasm* ] Come again? Has Intermountain discontinued its entire product line and introduced another?? [ *end sarcasm* ] None of the steel reefers are truly accurate other than the PFE and NP cars. Only one of the 60 foot flat cars is accurate. Many of the tank cars are bogus. Many of the PS-1 paint schemes are applied to the wrong car, although the paint schemes do correspond to Pullman Standard cars. The majority of the "Canadian cylindrical" covered hoppers are wrong, and some are simply a crock. I think the only car style they've done 100% accurately is the 1940 AAR 10'6" box. (And maybe the USRA gondola? It's too early for me.) Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net> Marlborough, Massachusetts
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Re: Intermountain kits
John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
Tim - I've been working on our Red Caboose and MDC
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sections, so BY COMPARISON Intermountain is a breath of fresh air. But I am entirely in the dark on the 60 foot flats (Richard's answer to the Overnight scheme), so any help you could give would be welcome. - John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timoconnor@mediaone.net> To: <STMFC@egroups.com> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intermountain kits John Nehrich wroteschemes onIntermountain does really well with sticking with the right paint the right cars.[ *begin sarcasm* ]
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Re: Intermountain kits
Richard Hendrickson
Intermountain does really well with sticking with the right paint schemesI've seen only two photos of ART crs in this scheme, and both were belt-rail cars (i.e.,postwar cars with improved Dreadnauight ends and horizontal rivet seams in the middle of the side sheathing). Also, I have in my notes that all the Central's USRA composite gonsCorrect on all counts, John. To the best of my knowledge, the Central's USRA gons were never painted mineral red. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: P2K Tank Cars
Jon Miller <atsf@...>
Richard,
One more question on the COSX D-X billboard cars. In my time frame with the KC brakes would they still have archbar trucks? Also are those LOC photos accessible by internet? Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Re: P2K Tank Cars
Richard Hendrickson
Jon Miller wrote:
Richard,No, as the (twice delayed) deadline prohibiting arch bars in interchange took effect in mid-1941. Anyway, the prototype cars were delivered with ARA cast steel trucks with spring planks and would certainly have retained those trucks through 1941 (in fact, probably until the cars wre retired). The closest HO scale truck is the Accurail "Bettendorf" truck. Also are those LOC photos accessible by internet?Yes, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Perhaps someone else on the list can tell you. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: scale draft gear
byronrose@...
The bottom line to this discussion will be written on modelers layouts.
Since I have not yet had one of the new Kadees (or Accumates) to play with, I can only make an educated guess as to how they'll work based on my familiarity with Kadees "old" #5s and how prototype draft gear works. But I wouldn't bet the farm on modelers using the new couplers on much more than display models. I feel that Seargant did their couplers a disservice by incorporating a Kadee #5 type shank which requires a wider housing just to get it on a car. But what else could they do with modelers using the #5s on at least 98% of their models? Somebody needs to develop plug in draft gear housings for the two types, scale and Kadee, which will allow interchange on a car by car basis. But unfortunately, those cars built with the coupler housing as an integral part of the end/end sill will be very, very difficult to convert, unless the manufacturers take pity on us and cut two different ends for their kits. I shudder to think of the work ahead of us to correct those thousands of unbuilt Westerfield and Sunshine kits, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of unbuilt plastic kits. And how about throwing in all the built-up cars we have rolling on test tracks and display cases. Or layouts?? There is some true scale coupler testing being done by some adventuresome types, like Randy Anderson, but I'm kinda betting that this is one area where the more things change, the more they will stay the same. Whatever that means. I hope that this development doesn't splinter us into non compatible groups like 1/4" vs 17/64" vs Proto 48 did in O scale. How ironic it will be when our steam engines will be able to operate on smaller radius curves than our freight cars. BSR On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:41:37 -0500 "Tim O'Connor" <timoconnor@mediaone.net> writes: ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Re: paint lid gaskets
Jon Miller <atsf@...>
Just found a new material to use for your used Floquil and Scalecoat
paint lids. Seems the plastic material used in SoBe drink lids is very solvent resistant. It can be pried out of the lid and used as is for Scalecoat. It can be cut down for Floquil bottles. I have had one in a old Floquil bottle which contains MEK. The material has swollen (in about 3 days) but still seals fine and does not appear to be dissolving. The test piece in the Scalecoat lid has been there 5 days with no apparent change. These seals really great as they are a soft plastic (or something). Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)
Jeff English
Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@opendoor.com> wrote:
But supposedly they switched fromWell, almost correct. Once again, in the interest of accuracy,black to box car red for their open top cars in '41,Correct on all counts, John. according to an article in the July 1974 issue of the NYC Headlight, the date of change in the painting of open-top freight cars from black to f.c. red was "up to the end of 1942 or early 1943". It is likely that there was no exact date, and that each shop used up their remaining supplies of black paint on different dates in a period of time that could have extended months following issuance of an official edict (whose date is still unknown to modern modeler/historians), if there was such a formal issuance, as opposed to verbal orders. Also it is likely that individual shop managers had their own personal opinions about how quickly they were going to adopt a new policy they may or may not have supported personally. The above change of date for painting whole cars is not completely consistent with the elimination of black from the background of oval heralds on f.c. red cars (indicating that it is possible that there were some f.c. red open-top cars with black backgrounds in '42-'43-'44). The elimination of black from heralds is reflected in a drawing dated 3-2-44 for the size then currently used on box cars, according to the same Headlight article. For other size heralds (including the one usually used on hoppers and gons), the article says black was eliminated "at about that time". Apparently no drawings with specific instructions have turned up. I have no doubt that the box cars built up to 1942 had the black background, and that the ones built starting in 1945 did not. There were no box cars built new for NYC in 1943, but I'm still looking for unambiguous evidence of whether Lots 734-B and 735-B had black backgrounds when built (both by Despatch Shops). I have not yet turned up a builder's photo of Lot 735-B, which I expect lacked the black, but I have a fuzzy rendition (2nd or 3rd generation copy neg?) of a builder's photo of Lot 734-B which, in my opinion, is inconclusive as to whether there is a black background. I've done some extreme contrast/brightness manipulation with a scan of this photo and I can sort of maybe say it looks like there is a black background, but I don't have any confidence in this. Lot 734-B = NYC 159000 - 159999 Lot 735-B = NYC 161000 - 161999 NYC AAR-design 40-ft cars, and some PS-1s, occupy a chronologically consistent run of numbers except for leaving the 160000s vacant. I believe this was because there was still a handful of USRA ss cars hanging on in that block, but they were all gone by the July '47 ORER. Other cars built after 1941 but before the first documented cars without black backgrounds included: Lot 729-B = IHB 10000 - 10599, blt 3-44 DSI Lot 730-B = IHB 10600 - 10999, blt 4-44 DSI Photos of cars with as-built paint jobs are pretty clear that the IHB herald has a black background. Since Lot 734-B followed pretty soon after 730-B, that's just one more little piece of circumstantial evidence supporting black for Lot 734-B. --------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff English Troy, New York Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling englij@rpi.edu | R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D | Route of the Whippet ---------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)
Richard Hendrickson
Thanks, Jeff, for this useful summary. I think I knew most of what you
posted, but I didn't have it all in one place, Now I do. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)
Stafford F. Swain <sswain@...>
This early 1940s timing of shifting painting open top cars from black to a freight car red coincides pretty tightly with the CNR's dates of doing exactly the same thing to the same groups of cars. Could this be a wartime supply issue??
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Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@opendoor.com> wrote:But supposedly they switched fromWell, almost correct. Once again, in the interest of accuracy, --
Stafford Swain 26 Kenneth Street Winnipeg, MB, Canada R3T 0K8 (204) 477-9246 sswain@total.net
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Re: "TW" reefer designation
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Dick and John,
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At the time these cars were converted (the late 1930s), wood was the only commonly used material for cooperage in the California wine industry. Although glass-lined tanks were in common use for milk, they were still on the far horizon for wine producers. Stainless steel was pretty new and wouldn't make much of an appearance in the wine industry until the 1960s. Wood "breathes" (just like the cork in a good bottle of wine), and this allows the wines to improve by gentle oxidation. Oak, was and still is, the most commonly used wood for wine. It adds tannic acid, necessary for giving red wines and Chardonnays their complex flavors. Redwood is chemically neutral and is preferred for aging fruity reds and most white wines. Redwood lends itself more to upright storage vats than horizontal aging barrels. Stainless steel and glass are not only chemically neutral, but don't breathe either, so they add nothing to the wine. We have no details on the wood used for the cooperage in these cars, but my best guess is that they were probably oak. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Dick Harvey wrote:
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Re: SP Overnight scheme
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Richard,
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From the wording in your reply, I presume you are unaware that Martin Loftin has the correct model of the SP Overnight boxcar in his Sunshine line. It's a nice model, with the correct ACR panels and the improved ends. Maybe someday I'll actually get around to building mine. :^) I might add that after the overnight service ended, these cars were released to the general fright pool, though this was in the 1960s. Probably most had long been relettered in the aluminum/grey scheme. I have a blurred photo of one taken at Roseville in my old high-school days. Unfortunately, it was on its way to the scrap yard in Lincoln. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Richard Hendrickson wrote:
That's correct, John. The original black overnight paint scheme was
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Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)
John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
One of the things that I wasn't aware of concerned the development of paint.
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There was an article in Invention & Technology (I think that's the right name) about the problems of painting autos. It seems the lacquers in the early days took a long time to dry and didn't cover well on metal. It took something like 17 days to paint an auto, which was set under enormous heat lamps with men in lint free coveralls and gloves working under the sweltering conditions whose only job it was to pluck dust, hair, off the slowly drying paint. Henry Ford's famous slogan "Any color you want as long as it was black" was not that he didn't want to store a whole lot of colors, but that black absorbed the heat the best and dried a little faster. After WWI, Du Pont found itself with a lot of nitroglycerin on their hands (or maybe it was other chemicals related to explosives), and in the 1920's, developed the Duco paints of synthetic paints. This took the time down to a few hours (on autos). And Ford stuck to his plain jane Model-T and lost his edge to GM who went to colorful autos that were stylized. In the 1922 Cyc. for instance there is mention about using a paint with carbon in it as the best on metal. (I'm not sure if this was true, but if they believed it, that is what is most important.) Thus a box car red was an iron oxide paint using the cheapest pigments, and favored on wood, while black was favored on freight cars made up mostly of metal. (And even box cars and reefers got their hardware painted black on a lot of early schemes, not just for the builder's schemes.) I'm not sure when railroads got the message. There may also be a question of when they switched from hand-painting to spray-painting. This doesn't sound the most reasonable, but maybe not having to clean the airbrush from red to black and back again was a factor. (I don't know about them, but it would sway me.) The question of paint raises another point. Early steel cars would be a pain to paint (I'm sure they didn't do it like autos, but still) and I don't think the paint stuck that well, either. When the Duco paints came on the scene, the balance may have tipped a little more from wood to steel. By the way, the Rutland stuck with their NYC scheme of red wood cars (mainly box cars and reefers, but also ballast cars, and black open top cars. The D&H, always trying to be different, went the other way it seems. Their hoppers and gons had been red through the '30's, and about 1940 switched to black, although that is when they first started getting steel hoppers and gons in quantity. - John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stafford F. Swain" <sswain@TOTAL.NET> To: <STMFC@egroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits) This early 1940s timing of shifting painting open top cars from black
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Re: "TW" reefer designation
John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
I understand that part of the fermetation process are the development of
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aldehydes, which are bitter, but allowing the wine to "breathe" lets them oxidize. Although around c. 1940 there are the multi-dome/multi-compartment wine tank cars, which must have had a metal liner. But if the TW cars were converted in '35-'36, that doesn't leave much time for them to run under the billboard schemes that Red Caboose shows (not that there was that much time between the end of Prohibition and the billboard ban anyway). Also, as bulk wine cars rather than shipping cartons of it in RB cars, the cars would need to go to bottling plants, not just some wholesale distributor or even in the more remote possibility of a team track (on a layout just to justify these cars) ? - John Nehrich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@virginia.edu> To: <STMFC@egroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] "TW" reefer designation Dick and John,and them.I believe that is where Bill McClung got the idea and data for doing
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TW cars
John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
In 1940, there were an unknown number of cars in California Despatch Line's 277-317 series, TW cars said to be equipped with 6 wooden tanks (not the two I would have expected, if built like a GPEX milk car). Also, Bright Wines had a couple of cars with wood tanks and several with rubber lined tanks (not stainless steel or glass-lined).
- John Nehrich
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Re: "TW" reefer designation
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
John,
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Quite a few of the large wine makers in California served primarily eastern markets up into the 1960s. Roma was the most famous. Wine from quite a few of these producers was shipped in bulk to bottling plants in the east. This pretty much ended when many of the larger California wineries went national, and there was a boomlet (later a boom in the 1970s) in east coast wineries growing hybridized grapes. AFIK, there are few, if any, California wineries shipping in bulk to the east coast now (watch someone prove me wrong!). Most ship finished wine in bottles. IIRC, Roma was one of the last of the bulk shippers. I vaguely remember seeing a Roma car in Manteca or Fresno while traveling to my parents house from college around 1970 or so. Of course, no camera, and in fact I think it was at night. I had quite forgotten the Roma wine tankers. I don't know the technical details of the tanks, but they were probably lined with glass, stainless steel, or something else. If they were bare steel, the acids in the wines would have slowly eaten away at the metal, tainting the taste of the wine with iron compounds. As we have discussed here before, the notion that all billboard reefers disappeared circa 1939 is in error. Car under lease to one company, and carrying only their products, could still be so lettered. The lettering ban applied mostly to free-floating or short-term lease cars which might carry loads for shippers other than the one advertised on the side, especially loads for competitors. I do not know about the cars in question, but photo evidence shows that certain wine cars did retain their colorful schemes up into the 1960s. I'm sure that Richard will eventually straighten us both out on this matter. He always seems to have the right answer, and the evidence to back it up. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff John Nehrich wrote:
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Re: "TW" reefer designation
Richard Hendrickson
John Nehrich wrote:
...around c. 1940 there are the multi-dome/multi-compartmentIn fact, those cars were glass lined. There was a discussion on the FC list a couple of months ago about how the glass linings wee applied. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: "TW" reefer designation
Richard Hendrickson
Garth Groff wrote:
....AFIK, there areThat's essentially correct. There is photographic evidence of the Roma cars lasting into the 1960s with billboard lettering. And I photographed several wine tank cars in the Central Valley ca. 1970, though they were all SHPX/ACFX and GATX cars without fancy lettering. (One freshly painted ACFX six compartment car was painted purplish maroon, however, which was definitely eye-catching.) Small quantities of Calif. wine are still shipped in bulk to some east coast wineries, notably in upstate New York where (despite all the promotional hype for Finger Lakes wines) the summer is too short to bring up the sugar in the grapes so their wines are blended with California wines to make them palatable. As we have discussed here before, the notion that all billboard reefersEven later than that, the Chateau Martin winery operated a small fleet under their own reporting marks of ex-milk tank cars in express reefer bodies that had wine colored sides and billboard lettering. Perhaps its worth noting that quality wines were never shipped in bulk, at least not over long distances. It was the cheap stuff that traveled in tank cars. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: SP Overnight scheme
Richard Hendrickson
Richard,You're right Garth, I'd forgotten that Martin had produced a resin kit for these cars. It's a model I can't use, and I have a hard time remembering all the different cars in the Sunshine line. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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